The Free Will Experiment

[KennyJC]

I never said I didn't appreciate rules. But so long as rules exist in a social sense, and laws of the universe exist, even necessary ones... How then can true free will exist?

I'm not a believer in heaven or hell, but if I did. I would have no choice. Burn in hell for eternity? I'd rather not...

but expects us not to hurt each other.

How do you know? Nature shows that we are indeed expected to hurt each other, and we are expected to be hurt...

 

[usp8riot]

but expects us not to hurt each other.

expects=wants. Sure, in the sense you're thinking of, he expects us to be hurt by each other, that is a given, but doesn't want it or condone it.

I'm not a believer in heaven or hell, but if I did. I would have no choice. Burn in hell for eternity? I'd rather not...

No, you would just be expected to give back any peace you took from someone else. That's not so tough to follow. To be just, for another to be just, just as God is just. Fair is fair. You can't argue with that. When you steal from someone, you can expect them to be justified in this lifetime or either the next. It is the way to protect everyone and make amends with everyone. There is nothing unfair about that. Anyone done wrong to you, you can expect justification in this life or the next. I don't see it as unfair.

How do you know? Nature shows that we are indeed expected to hurt each other, and we are expected to be hurt...

Because that is the way I feel. If I'm feeling aggressive, of course, I may feel like shooting my guns, which has always been a hobby, and hurting something like a bird but it doesn't make it right but I didn't see that sometimes then. If I'm feeling tired or happy, I may be more forgiving than I should be to others. It is only when I'm calm, serene when I believe what I believe is what the true me feels. And when I am more at peace, I feel hurting someone else is wrong. You feel it is right? I see any extreme emotion as wrong.

 

[KennyJC]

You feel it is right? I see any extreme emotion as wrong.

How come? It all boils down to simple chemicals reactions, and your proneness to such extremes is pretty much decided before you even have a heartbeat. If that is a fault, or if anything is considered wrong in God's eyes, then he should blame himself and not his creation.

Why should I be in hell for his fuck-up?

 

[usp8riot]

It is some that are sensitive to the emotions of others, I for one am. If I listen to aggressive music, it can make me the same. Depressive music-depressive me, etc. I also notice that in others. There are a lot of people that try to bring out a lot of excess emotion in people now, and always have been, but really notice now in music, to the extremes. I've loved heavy metal, rap, country, blues, classical, rock, folk, dance, the whole gamut of it all and one thing I notice these days is it is a lot more emotional than the music of the distant past, and of all, mostly more agressive.

Most people don't realize that extreme emotion is wrong. As I've mentioned before, plenty of times, that excess is wrong. Excess emotion creates haste to fulfill that emotion and destroys reasoning. If a friend of yours was murdered and the convicted murderer on trial, would you trust a happy, excited judge more if you were sure the convicted guy did it or a strict, maddened judge? For fairness, you wouldn't want a judge judging that was so excited and happy, it would make him more forgiving than he should or so mad that he would be inclined to give him a more strict sentence would you? Agree or not, our emotions affect our reasoning, we should all know that, even in the slight bit when we don't think it will sometimes. The best judgement is done when one is at peace. I could ellaborate more but have other posts on this and some are more clear than this one.

But the trick is to avoid people or moments that bring about emotional moods for you so you will be more peaceful. Avoid music that tests your emotions. Friends that test your emotion. I love the outdoors and find solice in it's complacency. The serenity restores peace to the self. Don't work for anyone that hurries you for petty things unless someone's health or welfare is at stake. I've done the same lately. I've changed my music listening to more peaceful music. Emotion wears down the body. Anymore, I find myself more likely to strafe away from someone who tries to instill much emotion in me unless I think I can bare it. Emotion is a dime a dozen these days, so to speak. Too much emotion and everyone takes it more lightly. Just as violence, we get desensitized to it and take it more lightly. Same with happiness. When emotions are taken to the extreme, they aren't valued as much. And one that doesn't value their own emotions, values others equally. For a wise man, reasoning rules his judgement, not emotion.

 

[mustafhakofi]

I posted this some time back,

some questions regarding free will

Free will. Christians believe that people who do not accept Jesus as the son of God will go to Hell.?
Hell is a place defined in the New Testament of the bible which did not exist in the Old Testament.?
Christians believe that it is not wrong for their god to send his creations to Hell because their god gave mankind "free will". ?
Free will, according to Christians, is man's innate ability to know right from wrong and make his own choices freely without intervention from their god until they are judged by their god after death.?

Problem 1. Judgment and punishment.
The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?. If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them?. Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. He is omniscient and He created Hell?. The Christian god then makes people anyway, even though he knows he will send most of them to Hell?. Free Will as defined by the Christians is therefore quite completely impossible by their definition of their god?. Why would a loving god make men and send them to hell for being exactly what he created them to be? He is perfect, so he certainly doesn't do it by accident. A god can not be loving, omniscient, omnipotent and send people to Hell. They are mutually exclusive.


Problem 2. Ethnic Upbringing.
How can Christians use free will as an excuse for their god sending people to Hell who do not believe in Jesus as the Christ? People born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country where belief in the Muslim faith is a law will almost certainly not grow up to be Christans. Why would this loving god of theirs create men and send them to Hell for growing up to be a good Muslim citizens? If the man is born in a Muslim country to Muslim parents, the chances of him changing his faith to Christianity is lower than his chances of winning the Lotto. Most people stay in the faith that they were raised in. Perhaps not the same sect, but still the same god. 99% of these "Good Christians" would be "Good Muslims" if they had been born in Iran/iraq etc Then they would be going to Hell, too. how fair is that coming from your loving god?.

Problem 3. Knowing right from wrong.
Through basic psychology we know that violence can be increased or lessened by stimulating different areas of the brain. We know that people's moods can be altered by introducing drugs, prescription or otherwise, to the brain. We know that children are extremely effected at a subconscious level by the interactions with their family and community at a very young age. How is it that the soul of a person, which is supposed to be innately aware of good and evil, so easily manipulated with material things such as Prozac?

In short, we know for a fact that each and every adult is a product of the sums of their genetic brain structure, their very early formative years, and random luck such as being born to extremely violent, crime ridden, poverty stricken neighborhoods, or to extremely affluent parents who are politically connected with the community.

Therefore, a person who is born into an underprivileged drug addicted, and abusive family will have an enormous chance of leading a life full of angry resentment and serious brushes with the law as well as violating the ten commandments with wild abandon. Such a person would be much more likely to go to Hell than a fortunate soul who is born to an extremely well adjusted suburban upper-middle class family which raises their children in the Christian church.

Go ask all the "evil monsters" who deserve the death penalty in America's prisons about their childhoods. While you're at it, check out their IQ's. IQ tests are not at all a test of education. They contain no vocabulary or math question, but simply are comprised of problem solving exercises. Low IQ's indicate an inability to think in a logical manner, and therefore to create rational thoughts and decisions. Have you ever met an atheist with a low IQ? Have you ever met a relgious Fundamentalist with a high IQ? Do retarded people go to hell for not being good Christians? If not, then at what particular IQ level does this god start issuing exemptions? Why is it that this Christian god who professes to love the poor drops the greatest statistical chances of being patently violent and "ungodly" upon the poor people He supposedly loves so much?

The religious say it all the time. "There, but for the grace of God, go I." If they consider it God's grace that they were not so afflicted, then how is it that they can forgive their god for so afflicting others? How can a man who's children survived a hurricane say that God was watching out for them and offer prayers of thanks when his neighbor's children are dead from the same storm? Did those other children not deserve God's love so much as his? It is not conceptually sound that children who endure hell on earth should be sent to hell after death by a god who professes to love them so. http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40065

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

In a non-free will world if I ........

1. Want to have sex with my wife would it only be for procreation?
2. Saw my neighbor's gorgeous wife naked will I achieve or am I allowed an erection?
3. Try to think about sex will I be prevented?
4. Want to procreate with my wife will I need a highly developed sense of smell to know when she's in estrus?
5. Want to procreate do I have to be married?
6. Want sex without procreation am I allowed a condom?
7. Need a condom will I be able to find one?
8. Get aroused will I be allowed to satisfy my urges by other means?
9. Have sex with my wife will I be allowed to enjoy it?
10. Have sex with my wife, can we screw as many times as I want while she's ovulating?

The more I think of it the more stupid a world without free will sounds. If heaven is something like that then I want no part of it. I'll give the Muslim's credit for at least having a few young virgins available for dead terrorists but I'd be happy with a few good lookin' pros.

This is only one scenario. There are many events. The rule book for a non-free will society would fill the sky. If every world except ours is a non-free will society then no wonder He created this one, at least here He's not always inundated with having to deal with requests for Him to either give or deny permission.

 

[usp8riot]

Problem 1. Judgment and punishment.

You've got to change your definition of hell. I would never believe in a God that does this. God is just. The bible and other religious text have a way of simplifying things which may lead to more questions of us now. But I put my soul on the line to say that hell is a place where people had made mistakes before in this life and they learn from them. I don't see it as eternal as some texts believe, but temporary. My definition of eternal in the bible means never knowing when you are ready to be moved on. Just as if we do bad here, we may be punished ourselves for sinning, like feeling bad we done it if we don't recieve punishment from another as in maybe a good talking to or whatever. But we learn from our mistakes here. Like I said before, the afterlife, for one is to makeup for what we haven't learned here and/or be rewarded for what we have learned. Hell is described as torture but isn't life torture when we do something wrong to someone? It doesn't have to be bodies burning, satan tearing us up, I grant you that. But we may have a fire burning from within us of guilt, or shame. I would never believe in a God that loved to take pleasure in hurting us. And if He created us, if He had no rules, who's to keep Him from crushing us or torturing us here and now? He values us and wants no harm to come to us. If that was God who loved to torture us, move over satan, because I would be the anti-God. So many people have it all mixed up and not to a fault of their own but that's why it's time for a new prophet. He will relieve the sorrow of many. And give the map to those that are lost.

Problem 2. Ethnic Upbringing.

We all have God within us. It is hard to purely find Him but a lot of people may have. It is that much harder to purely find Him if you are not doing pure things. No matter the nation or ethnicity, everyone has God within them. God is not found through a prophet, but within yourself. A prophet just helps to guide you to God.

Problem 3. Knowing right from wrong.

Those are drugs which deviate emotion. That is what man gets for playing God and messing with what was already made good and called good by God. It is a deviation from God's word by saying, God didn't make you right, so I will. Those that play with the emotions of others have wronged. And drugs which change emotion are wrong. Physically changing the brain's chemistry is wrong. God made the human body therefore He will work on it as seen fit. As in the case with other medical procedures and the smaller things such as eyeglasses, if man destroyed it, then man can repair it. But also as the bible says about gambling, since it is wrong, you are gambling with yourself and if you are undergoing a procedure which could do more harm to the body than good, than you will have to accept it and take the consequences because the body is God's gift to you so do not take it for granted. Most of this is just common sense to me, I don't know about anyone else. But I will elaborate if anyone wishes.

Therefore, a person who is born into an underprivileged drug addicted, and abusive family will have an enormous chance of leading a life full of angry resentment and serious brushes with the law as well as violating the ten commandments with wild abandon. Such a person would be much more likely to go to Hell than a fortunate soul who is born to an extremely well adjusted suburban upper-middle class family which raises their children in the Christian church.

I was once wild myself. What is wild? It is the want to push the boudaries. And that's what I was. A boundary pusher. But what if we don't trust someone who is telling us where our boundaries are? Well, we learn the hard way which makes our knowledge in the boundaries that much stronger. You're a smoker, you learn the hard way it is bad for you. You don't go by heresay, you can rightfully know. That is within all of us to push boundaries. Without pushing boundaries, we don't learn. No one is going to trust someone all the time on where our boundaries lie and be a sheep all their life. I would keep pushing the boundaries, relating to philosophy and physics as to why, why, why. I would keep breaking barriers in areas and learn of new barriers to be broken. That is our way to learn, within all of us. Sometimes the dumb/foolish are seen as boundary pushers/barrier breakers but I would say atleast sometimes these are very smart people with an intense curiousity of what lies beyond. Curiosity is a need, a fulfillment to learn, and without it, it means we haven't much room for learning or have already been there. And those with an intense curiousity usually have a lot of knowledge waiting to be stored, looking for fulfillment. Those that push boundaries sometimes that aren't raised as good as others just have a trust problem deep down perhaps to not take other people's words for it but likewise, they are finding out for themselves and being blessed with knowledge the hard way and can speak that much more of where the boundary lies and what path is the wrong way.

Go ask all the "evil monsters" who deserve the death penalty in America's prisons about their childhoods. While you're at it, check out their IQ's. IQ tests are not at all a test of education. They contain no vocabulary or math question, but simply are comprised of problem solving exercises. Low IQ's indicate an inability to think in a logical manner, and therefore to create rational thoughts and decisions. Have you ever met an atheist with a low IQ? Have you ever met a relgious Fundamentalist with a high IQ? Do retarded people go to hell for not being good Christians? If not, then at what particular IQ level does this god start issuing exemptions? Why is it that this Christian god who professes to love the poor drops the greatest statistical chances of being patently violent and "ungodly" upon the poor people He supposedly loves so much?

I don't believe in the death penalty. No group is predestined more to find God. Both have their good and bad ways. God, violent, in what ways?

The religious say it all the time. "There, but for the grace of God, go I." If they consider it God's grace that they were not so afflicted, then how is it that they can forgive their god for so afflicting others? How can a man who's children survived a hurricane say that God was watching out for them and offer prayers of thanks when his neighbor's children are dead from the same storm? Did those other children not deserve God's love so much as his? It is not conceptually sound that children who endure hell on earth should be sent to hell after death by a god who professes to love them so. http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40065

I speak not for Christians but believe they believe in the same God I do. Maybe because the guy who's children survived, helped himself. I believe God helps those that help themselves. Otherwise it would be laziness if you expected God to do anything you ask Him. And that would not be true faith. A man of God protects others and tries to be safe, and perhaps that's what he was doing moreso than the other guy. But God does not murder equally, because He doesn't murder. The people are just victim of circumstance. It is not God's fault.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

But we learn from our mistakes here. Like I said before, the afterlife, for one is to makeup for what we haven't learned here and/or be rewarded for what we have learned. Hell is described as torture but isn't life torture when we do something wrong to someone?

Why are there birth defects, Downe's syndrome, mental retardation, kids with cancer, victims of crime(again getting no respecr), ,etc. How or what are these people learning? Your ideology only pertains to the normal, as if the abnormal are only props. Flawed, needs rethinking.

 

[usp8riot]

Why are there birth defects, Downe's syndrome, mental retardation, kids with cancer, victims of crime(again getting no respecr), ,etc. How or what are these people learning? Your ideology only pertains to the normal, as if the abnormal are only props. Flawed, needs rethinking.

If they can't physically do God's will or help anyone, are you asking what is their purpose? Don't we all learn from the sick or one's who are mentally handicapped about life? Society has to be balanced also. Without that, there is hate for the opposite. Just as there are very intelligent people, so should there also be very unintelligent people. Just as there is very comedic people, so should there be very serious people. It is the balance of mankind. We all learn from opposites. If everyone was like me, what would I learn? Suppose I have opposite knowledge and personality from you, I learn things I don't know, you do also, and experience a different person. Just as man is made opposite of woman. Man more on the strict side and woman on the more forgiving side. They shall come together and unite as one in marriage and have offspring. The two are complete as child raisers. One sees the more merciful side of life, the other the more harsh. That is one reason why a child is best raised by two parents, a man and a woman. They are meant to compliment each other in their opposing ways. One lacks what the other needs. It is the fine balance of mankind just as I 'preach' about the fine balance in everything else like emotion, wealth, service, etc.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

If they can't physically do God's will or help anyone, are you asking what is their purpose? Don't we all learn from the sick or one's who are mentally handicapped about life? Society has to be balanced also. Without that, there is hate for the opposite. Just as there are very intelligent people, so should there also be very unintelligent people. Just as there is very comedic people, so should there be very serious people. It is the balance of mankind. We all learn from opposites.

You're doing it again. Not everyone has reached the stage of normalcy that you prescribe. You said everyone learns but you are not including anybody that's opposite to the standards you've set. As an example, what does a crippled, sick, terminally ill or abused child learn from life? You say we all learn from the sick and so on but don't they count for anything.

The fact is you cannot answer given your criteria for normal or the good side of bad.

 

[usp8riot]

Basically we learn to overcome obstacles, don't we? If we are sick, temporarily disabled, etc, do you not believe you learn to be humble, that life has bad sides too, that what we went through other people go through and perhaps may not be just temporary for them? When you go through hardship, it teaches you compassion for others since you've been there. Abused children learn not to trust everyone the hard way, for one. Sad, yes, and the ones who do it should be punished. We all learn from mistakes and even people purposely testing us. I don't know of a single event that is 100% bad nor a 100% good event. There is a good and bad to everything. A terminally ill child learns of the hardships in life and so does the parents. That life is not all rosy. It makes you grow and mature. Everyone has a purpose, just because someone is sick or handicapped doesn't mean they don't have a purpose for themselves or others. To debate this topic of the purpose of certain people, well, shouldn't be debated unless you truly don't think these people have a purpose.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Basically we learn to overcome obstacles, don't we? A terminally ill child learns of the hardships in life and so does the parents. That life is not all rosy. It makes you grow and mature................. Everyone has a purpose, just because someone is sick or handicapped doesn't mean they don't have a purpose for themselves or others. To debate this topic of the purpose of certain people, well, shouldn't be debated unless you truly don't think these people have a purpose.

Yowza...that's a tough education. The Lord sure works in mysterious ways, albeit cruelly. Many a quadraplegic just got taught a lesson: Hardship is tough love, so enjoy it and learn from it. Sorry man I can't buy it. Why some good people thru no fault of their own live hell on Earth and others who are as bad as sin live like kings is telling me God is on a recess coffee break. I wonder what Ted Bundy learned murdering all those women or what Jeffrey Dahmer learned about the taste of human flesh....what on Earth kind of school is God running here?

We've learned a lot about war and killing, that seems to be one of God's favorite lessons. We like it so much we've learned to keep doing it over and over again.

This thread is not about the purpose of abnormal people. You said everybody learns but that's no different than any other religious argument because its selfish. Religion worries about #1 and how God sees us...... God made me this way so I'm special.

I've learned something....I've learned that religion is just bullshit and it baffles brains. It turns people into holier than thou guidance counsellors who are basically living in their own dream world. Expousing people profiling, where god favors the physically and mentally superior, is just plain wrong.

 

[TheVisitor]

We are a triune being - operating in three different realms of existance.
Now, this outside man is the flesh. That's what we look at, what we see. And it has five inlets to that body.
There's five senses control the body: see, taste, feel, smell and hear.
That's the only way you have to the body: see, taste, feel, smell and hear.

Now, inside of that is a spirit, that spirit is of a worldly nature, because it was not given from God, but it was permitted by God.
But now, it's got five inlets, Reason, conscience, memory, affection, imagination.
You can't think with your body; you have to think with your spirit.
If you're asleep or you're out; your body's lying there dead, but your spirit can still reason; there's five senses that controls that inside man.

Now, to the last man, which is the soul.
Inside of that spirit is a soul, and it's controlled by one thing: your free will.
There's only one sense that controls that, and that is, free moral agency, free will, to choose or to reject.
You can accept what the devil says or accept what God says.
And that'll determine what spirit's in there.

Has God lost control, or is He just permitting another agency to control?
The true answer to this question is... there is two opposing spirits in the world today at work.
The two spirits, one of them God's Holy Spirit, the other one the devil's spirit working in deception.
The people of the earth are now making their choice.

 

[usp8riot]

So what do you want? A perfect world? A utopia? Everyone made just the same, no one has more advantage than anyone else? No one gets sick, no one dies, no evil goes on, no mistakes happen, we automatically know all because we don't need mistakes to learn from, we are immortal, can't be hurt, and then what? Where is the challenge? That would seem so boring it sickens me. I live in pain myself, constant chest, abdominal, and back pain. Doctor doesn't know what it is, just assumes it is anxiety. Not sure if it is something to really be worried about or not. But I feel humbled to have pain. It never makes me forget the pain others feel. Part of me wants to rid the pain but part of me knows it keeps me humble and has taught me that I should take better care of my body more. But where would be the pleasure in being immortal, no one can get sick, hurt, saddened by someone's hurt or their own, pleasurable for someone's conquering but any physical challenge can be conquered since we are immortal. And no need to overcome mental challenges to prove we're better than anyone else because we're all the same. No pleasures of procreation if we wanted because we would live forever regardless. No pleasure of food since we can't die anyway. No pleasure of risking life, hang gliding, rock climbing, flying, etc, all would be boring. What would life be if it was all perfect. We would need no stomach to digest food, or rib cage to defend our bodies since we are immortal anyway. No eyes to see where we're going because it doesn't matter anyway, if we fall, no harm done. No need to challenge anything because we're immortal, not like we can find more ways to live longer since we live forever. No need to explore new areas, we have a limited area we can inhabit since we're immortal and don't need to procreate. Can no one but me see that? Don't you see how mundane it would be? Everyone knows just as well as I do if you think, that we can't have it all perfect. God doesn't like being blamed of this. It is the fragility of life that makes it so sweet.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

So what do you want?

I want somebody to tell say what a non free-will society would be like and to some degree you just did. It did sound like you were describing some type of heaven and frankly it doesn't strike me as the place to be. I just laugh when I think of Christians taking something as natural as free will and making it their own. If there is a God I'm sure He is also chuckling.

I can't imagine a society where there is no free will. God wouldn't have a moment to himself trying to appease a world full of Ned Flanders act-alikes. He'd know right away He'd made a mistake. They'd drive Him more nuts than our present company.

So why does your God give us free will when He'd rather have us without it? Why should God honestly give two craps about it anyway?

 

[usp8riot]

It did sound like you were describing some type of heaven and frankly it doesn't strike me as the place to be.

That doesn't sound like heaven to me, at all.

I can't imagine a society where there is no free will.

Ditto.

So why does your God give us free will when He'd rather have us without it? Why should God honestly give two craps about it anyway?

I never said He'd rather have us without it. Because He is God, He cares for all that is His just like anyone.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Because He is God, He cares for all that is His just like anyone.

'All that is' makes us a very insignificant part. Its like me caring for an atom of dust.

I can't think of anything more horrible than no free will? Why is not having free will a good thing?

 

[General_Paul]

Or how's this for an explination of Free Will: We evolved over millions of years from the break with the great apes in central Africa around 6-10 Million Years Ago, formed the hominid family tree and slowly evolved into what we are today: rational, thinking beings. To counter arguements of god's free will, I can show you an equal ammount of archeological and anthropological evidence to pretty well prove the existence of evolution on earth that could disprove all ideas of a divine creation and "Adam and Eve." Sorry, but two people propagating the human species? There's this thing called inbreeding and genetic deformities... yeah it gets kinda messy at that point.

 

[Provita]

Last time i checked (and im not a creationist, i believe in evolution)... evolution doesn't disprove God's creation of us... all it does is disprove the 6-day creation story... so... yeah

 

[General_Paul]

Eh... I'm not a big proponent of God's creation of the human race at all, just doesn't jive with my beliefs. Hey, I think if there was a Jesus Christ, he had some great ideas and was a great guy overall. Just the idea of an all seeing, all powerful god creating the entire universe and in turn, creating humanity and sending his son down to "die for our sins" just doesn't make any sense at all. In the end it comes down to: If you were the lord king of an entire, abnormally large universe, would you bother with one backwards planet in the middle of nowhere? Probably not, you've got better things to do. Yeah you'll make races, but focus on one of them? Probably not.

And one other thing, if god made man, then who made god?