The Final Solution

[(Q)]

c20

It is the political architects that you have issue with, not Cyperiums beliefs.

The point is that they are one and the same. If Cyperium were to come to power, he would base many of his decisions on his beliefs, regardless if they were wrong.

When my child asks for a loaf of bread, should I give him a snake? If not why not?

Good question. Since good and evil are theist concepts, a Christian might see that as an evil act while a Muslim, who considers your son an infidel, might see that as good and offer an asp.

From an atheist point of view, one would have to ask if you were doing harm to others or not. Obviously, you were.

Perhaps nature only created atheists and theists came from..... ??????

... from nature, of course. And instead of trying to understand where they came from, they made up creationist stories based on their ignorance.

If Cyperium prepares himself for immortality by pursuing a self-less life dedicated to loving others in this life, I cannot see where your objection is?

Cyperium would have wasted his life in his pursuit of theist immortality. Loving others is not a theist concept but one of sociology.

Instead, Cyperium, as an individual, could easily love others while pursuing the knowledge of nature as well, perhaps discovering something important and adding to that knowledge base. With that, he would achieve true immortality.

When you get to the bit before planck-time then come back to me on it. Until then you are just postulating right?

In our lifetime, that may not happen. But that doesn't mean it won't happen eventually, given time and the resources. The problem is with theists who waste their lives in useless pursuit of ideals. Instead, they could be using that time to help answer those questions.

Think of the huge resources available in the world today, all but wasting their time thinking about gods and preparing for an afterlife.

Some day. Let's discuss it further then.

Ok.

Now if I could not even prevent that (because I do not seek my own way), what is it that I am having such an influence over?

Are you saying that your god forced the pregnancy on you and your girlfriend? Was it inevitable and foreseen? There was no free will on your part?

 

[Nisus]

ahh this is sweet watchin C20 juggle athiests...

 

[duendy]

I watch the caterpillar turn into a lifeless cocoon , I watch the butterfly emerge from that lifeless cocoon. I take some meaning from that. If that is 'spiritualising nature' then I can only conclude that it is 'natural' for me to do that. I do not see how that is undermining nature?

peace

c20

i would say it undermines Nature when you conceptualize whatit means to the detrimen t of Nature.
Why is 'Caterpilla' 'less'? why do yout assume that bcause Catepilla metamorhizes into Butterfly which you are observing in Nature_as_it_is, 'means' some tale you've read in a bpok whihc you believe literally. which one is the real? the actual observation of catterpilla or concept of some future ime where Nature is made 'better/spiritual' by 'God'.....
why couldn't the insight of catterpilla to butterfly mean the tranistion from fearer of Nature to one who feels at HOME with Nature?

 

[c20H25N3o]

c20: It is the political architects that you have issue with, not Cyperiums beliefs.

(Q):The point is that they are one and the same. If Cyperium were to come to power, he would base many of his decisions on his beliefs, regardless if they were wrong.

Cyperium is accountable for his actions as a christian. Jesus was tempted to become a ruler of men under Satan and resisted the temptation by saying something along the lines of 'Man should worship God and God alone.'
I would be suprised to see any christian seeking political power and that includes Cyperium.

c20:When my child asks for a loaf of bread, should I give him a snake? If not why not?

(Q):Good question. Since good and evil are theist concepts, a Christian might see that as an evil act while a Muslim, who considers your son an infidel, might see that as good and offer an asp.

Would a muslim offer his own son an asp? And if not why not? Let's not move the goalposts here!

(Q):From an atheist point of view, one would have to ask if you were doing harm to others or not. Obviously, you were.

Well doing harm to others equates to evil in my book. You call it 'doing harm', I call it 'doing harm', I call 'doing harm' - 'evil' ! You don't want to argue that giving your son a snake (in this context) would be a good idea do you?

c20:Perhaps nature only created atheists and theists came from..... ??????

(Q)... from nature, of course. And instead of trying to understand where they came from, they made up creationist stories based on their ignorance.

No. They wrote the words as directed by the Holy Spirit. The meaning behind the words is what is important to man but these words must be spiritually discerned. One must seek out the Author in order to make sense of them.

c20:If Cyperium prepares himself for immortality by pursuing a self-less life dedicated to loving others in this life, I cannot see where your objection is?

(Q): Cyperium would have wasted his life in his pursuit of theist immortality. Loving others is not a theist concept but one of sociology.

Cyperium cannot do anything to gain immortality. No one can. Immortality can only come to man via the grace of God. Grace is an 'undeserved' favor. Since Cyperium has accepted God's grace, he feels a duty to love his neighbour as God has loved him and as he loves God. This is the meaning of the two commandments that Jesus left.

(Q): Instead, Cyperium, as an individual, could easily love others while pursuing the knowledge of nature as well, perhaps discovering something important and adding to that knowledge base. With that, he would achieve true immortality.

There is nothing in Cyperium's words that suggests to me he is not interested in scientific discovery or furthering his knowledge about nature. In fact one may be as bold as to assume that his presence on this site is all about just that.

c20:When you get to the bit before planck-time then come back to me on it. Until then you are just postulating right?

(Q)In our lifetime, that may not happen. But that doesn't mean it won't happen eventually, given time and the resources. The problem is with theists who waste their lives in useless pursuit of ideals. Instead, they could be using that time to help answer those questions.

You are generalising far to much about theists. I spend a great deal of time pursuing advances in computer science. I have created many useful applications that have greatly benefited the world of science in their own way. For example I wrote a program to crunch data relating to toxicology reports. My applications saves one particular bio-chemist untold hours in manual labour, allowing her to concentrate on running more effective tests using the results of the data crunching of my application. My work does not conflict with my beliefs but rather supports them.

(Q):Think of the huge resources available in the world today, all but wasting their time thinking about gods and preparing for an afterlife.

You are generalising again to support your view. Am I the only exception to your rule? Surely not!!!


c20:Now if I could not even prevent that (because I do not seek my own way), what is it that I am having such an influence over?

(Q): Are you saying that your god forced the pregnancy on you and your girlfriend? Was it inevitable and foreseen? There was no free will on your part?

Whoa!!! Talk about leaving out an essential part of my original post!!!

The whole statement I made was ...

Like I said, whilst I might think that if my girlfriend got pregnant by me, it was 'our' responsibility to have that baby and support it, there would be very little preventing her from seeking an abortion if that was her will. Now if I could not even prevent that (because I do not seek my own way), what is it that I am having such an influence over?

I said quite clearly that I believed it was our responsibility that a baby was now on the cards. I.e. We had done nothing to prevent this from happening and are adult enough to know the consequences. My point following on from that was to contest that theists keep laying down laws to suit their beliefs. I contested it by saying that I would not even seek my own way, were my (hypothetical irresponsible) girlfriend to insist on an abortion. Now if I am not going to seek my own way when we are talking about the life and death of my unborn son or daughter, how can you say that my belief would lead me to dictate to people completely unrelated to me about how they should live their lives?

peace

c20

 

[c20H25N3o]

i would say it undermines Nature when you conceptualize whatit means to the detrimen t of Nature.
Why is 'Caterpilla' 'less'? why do yout assume that bcause Catepilla metamorhizes into Butterfly which you are observing in Nature_as_it_is, 'means' some tale you've read in a bpok whihc you believe literally. which one is the real? the actual observation of catterpilla or concept of some future ime where Nature is made 'better/spiritual' by 'God'.....
why couldn't the insight of catterpilla to butterfly mean the tranistion from fearer of Nature to one who feels at HOME with Nature?

It was you who said the caterpillar was less. I assigned no intrinsic value to it whatsoever!!!!

If you want to know what spiritual meaning it has for me, then just ask, but dont make assumptions.

I'll tell you anyway.

It shows me that anything is possible with nature. That nothing should be taken for granted. That the reality you perceive one moment can be changed in the blink of an eye. That the happy caterpillar munching on leaves, will one day not even be recognisable as a caterpillar. I am not saying the butterfly is worth more than the caterpillar, I am just amazed that they are no longer in the same form. To me it hints of incredible change. I could apply the same awe nature inspires in me when one of my little seeds pops its head up and says 'look i'm in a different body now'. I don't disparage the seed anymore than I disparage the caterpillar. You have made that up haven't you?

peace

c20

 

[KennyJC]

(Q): The concepts of good and evil are theist and are relatively meaningless. If you see evil in the world, it is the direct cause of theists.

When my child asks for a loaf of bread, should I give him a snake? If not why not?

Since am not religious, I am not aware of the answer. Could you please tell me?

 

[c20H25N3o]

Since am not religious, I am not aware of the answer. Could you please tell me?

I'll make it easier for you KennyJC.

Your son asks for a glass of water. Would you give him hydrogen peroxide?

No. Why not. Because to do so would cause him harm. Why do you care? Because you love your son. Comon, you dont have to be a theist to know good from evil or right from wrong. But athiests have a problem with the words good and evil, like this is somehow them accepting 'gods' by admitting that such concepts exist in modern language.

Comon, you are going to have to do better than that KennyJC

peace

c20

 

[KennyJC]

I was actually wondering what right and wrong had to do with religion? Is this unique to humans? Do animals do right or wrong, or does it not matter for them since they don't have the ability to think of the consequences?

Is it only animals with pronounced frontal lobes that get punished/rewarded by God for how they are programmed to behave?

 

[(Q)]

c20

I would be suprised to see any christian seeking political power and that includes Cyperium.

Like George Bush, for example?

"Mr Bush also seems to believe there is some sort of divine plan for the world. In his speech to Congress nine days after the September 11th attacks, the president said that “freedom and fear, justice and cruelty have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them.” In other words, God is involved in the affairs of men, and to be against freedom and justice is to go against the will of God."

http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3502861

Would a muslim offer his own son an asp? And if not why not? Let's not move the goalposts here!

Perhaps, if his own son denounced Islam. The point is that good and evil are theist concepts and are only relative to each religion. One religion would see an act of evil as an act of good. This is part of the mindset that needs changing, to abolish the concepts of good and evil and replace them with rational and reasonable concepts of simply doing or not doing harm to others.

Well doing harm to others equates to evil in my book. You call it 'doing harm', I call it 'doing harm', I call 'doing harm' - 'evil' ! You don't want to argue that giving your son a snake (in this context) would be a good idea do you?

Again, good and evil are relative concepts, constrained within the beliefs of the religion purporting their versions of good and evil.

Do you remember the footage of Muslim women dancing in the streets when they saw the WTC towers fall?

One must seek out the Author in order to make sense of them.

The authors are long dead, along with their ideals and perceptions of reality. Their reasons for creating religion can be debated, but fall short of logic and reason, which they knew nothing about.

Cyperium cannot do anything to gain immortality. No one can. Immortality can only come to man via the grace of God.

Immortality can only be gained through ones actions on Earth. Their immortality remains in the history books and minds of those affected by those actions. The person himself is long dead and buried.

And again, it only goes to show that if Cyperium wishes immortality with god, he may go and do so and leave the Earth to us mortals.

There is nothing in Cyperium's words that suggests to me he is not interested in scientific discovery or furthering his knowledge about nature. In fact one may be as bold as to assume that his presence on this site is all about just that.

I would have to go back and read through his posts to see if he has made any contributions towards this board from a scientific position.

Of course, when faced with the decision as to evidence vs. beliefs, I think he would decide in favor of his beliefs, as do most all theists.

My work does not conflict with my beliefs but rather supports them.

I commend you on your work - kudos! However, I find it difficult to see how they would support your beliefs?

What about other scientific findings that may contradict your beliefs, do you rationalize or do you simply believe?

Am I the only exception to your rule? Surely not!!!

Close, but no cigar. I find your arguments far more convincing and stimulating than other theists, however, I have seen you take the way out by preaching when faced with tough questions.

Now if I am not going to seek my own way when we are talking about the life and death of my unborn son or daughter, how can you say that my belief would lead me to dictate to people completely unrelated to me about how they should live their lives?

With your beliefs, and along with many others, you might vote for anti-abortion laws, based on your beliefs. You might run for mayor of your city or vote for a politician and push those laws through, based on your beliefs. Everything you do on a daily basis that is based or not based on your beliefs will have an effect on others and how they live their lives.

Even if you lived in a cave far from any human contact, you'd do yourself and mankind a disservice by living your life based on your beliefs.

Mankind is in great need to solve many of the problems created by theists mindsets over the centuries, and it needs every available rational thinking mind to do so in order to curb the extinction the theist movement is racing towards.

 

[duendy]

It was you who said the caterpillar was less. I assigned no intrinsic value to it whatsoever!!!!

If you want to know what spiritual meaning it has for me, then just ask, but dont make assumptions.

I'll tell you anyway.

It shows me that anything is possible with nature. That nothing should be taken for granted. That the reality you perceive one moment can be changed in the blink of an eye. That the happy caterpillar munching on leaves, will one day not even be recognisable as a caterpillar. I am not saying the butterfly is worth more than the caterpillar, I am just amazed that they are no longer in the same form. To me it hints of incredible change. I could apply the same awe nature inspires in me when one of my little seeds pops its head up and says 'look i'm in a different body now'. I don't disparage the seed anymore than I disparage the caterpillar. You have made that up haven't you?

peace

c20

alll i am trying to cmmunicate is that i so love Nature. i think it's awesome....wonder-full, beyond belief. and i can get low thinking about what some mindsets--who are talking it for granted, seeing it as dead--have done to it, and continue ......so obviously i am interested in how such mindsets arise

your myth is clear. it is that in its natrual state Nature is believed by you to be 'fallen'....and tat it NEEDS your god 'Jesus Christ' to put-it-right-in-the-future. right?...meaning that now it aint right. ta twe 'Devil' is iin control? hasn't been 'locked up' yet? tat's in your myth isn't it. so i am inquiring. dont you see your myth as dangerous, in tat itmakes you feel uncpmfortable in Nature NOW?

 

[c20H25N3o]

(Q) ...

c20: I would be suprised to see any christian seeking political power and that includes Cyperium.

(Q): Like George Bush, for example?

"Mr Bush also seems to believe there is some sort of divine plan for the world. In his speech to Congress nine days after the September 11th attacks, the president said that “freedom and fear, justice and cruelty have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them.” In other words, God is involved in the affairs of men, and to be against freedom and justice is to go against the will of God."

http://www.economist.com/world/na/d...tory_id=3502861

I think the message of 'walking humbly with your God' has perhaps been lost on Mr Bush. Perhaps he mistook the word 'humbly' for 'dumbly'
People very rarely say they have an enemy unless they have good reason to think that. America has made a lot of enemies.
I cannot justify nor apologise for Mr Bush. Only he can do that.

c20: Would a muslim offer his own son an asp? And if not why not? Let's not move the goalposts here!

(Q): Perhaps, if his own son denounced Islam. The point is that good and evil are theist concepts and are only relative to each religion. One religion would see an act of evil as an act of good. This is part of the mindset that needs changing, to abolish the concepts of good and evil and replace them with rational and reasonable concepts of simply doing or not doing harm to others.

I feel I already asnswered this point. I don't really want to get tied up in words when we both agree that doing harm is not a worthwhile pursuit because it is non productive or counter productive to us.


C20: Cyperium cannot do anything to gain immortality. No one can. Immortality can only come to man via the grace of God.

(Q): Immortality can only be gained through ones actions on Earth. Their immortality remains in the history books and minds of those affected by those actions. The person himself is long dead and buried.

What's the point of existing in books and memories if people will only refute your existence like they do with Jesus all the time! I believe immortality is something we should ask God for. But that is my faith. I understand people have different views. Nevertheless, I fail to see how my faith is detrimental to the world as you would have it.

(Q): And again, it only goes to show that if Cyperium wishes immortality with god, he may go and do so and leave the Earth to us mortals.

Well I believe that Cyperium, myself and any other theist have a duty to perform here first. Not even God's Son was spared living in the flesh as we do, according to my faith. We are told to pick up our cross and follow Him, not put ourselves to death.

c20: There is nothing in Cyperium's words that suggests to me he is not interested in scientific discovery or furthering his knowledge about nature. In fact one may be as bold as to assume that his presence on this site is all about just that.

(Q): I would have to go back and read through his posts to see if he has made any contributions towards this board from a scientific position.
Of course, when faced with the decision as to evidence vs. beliefs, I think he would decide in favor of his beliefs, as do most all theists.

I cannot provide you with evidence and neither can Cyperium. It is something that sits right within us. Again, I cannot see how it harms you.

c20: My work does not conflict with my beliefs but rather supports them.

(Q): I commend you on your work - kudos! However, I find it difficult to see how they would support your beliefs?

Well from the point of view that I am trying to ease the burden of making progress to help the sick. In fact all my work is to lighten someone elses load through making effective use of technology. I would like to see things made more efficient. I hate waste and wasting resource is harmful to the environment. Maybe saying that it supports my beliefs is a bit strong. Probably better to say it doesn't contradict them.

(Q): What about other scientific findings that may contradict your beliefs, do you rationalize or do you simply believe?

If science proves something conclusively then I am objective enough to look at it and change my mind. Theories however close to the mark are still theories though but I'll keep an open mind.

c20: Am I the only exception to your rule? Surely not!!!

(Q): Close, but no cigar. I find your arguments far more convincing and stimulating than other theists, however, I have seen you take the way out by preaching when faced with tough questions.

I find it a little disappointing that you feel I am preaching my way out of toughies. When I came back to this board after some time, I came back with a challenge to self to try and talk in a language everyone can understand or relate to. I thought I was doing quite well I shall review my posts to see if I can see what you mean.

c20: Now if I am not going to seek my own way when we are talking about the life and death of my unborn son or daughter, how can you say that my belief would lead me to dictate to people completely unrelated to me about how they should live their lives?

(Q): With your beliefs, and along with many others, you might vote for anti-abortion laws, based on your beliefs. You might run for mayor of your city or vote for a politician and push those laws through, based on your beliefs. Everything you do on a daily basis that is based or not based on your beliefs will have an effect on others and how they live their lives.

I don't vote. I will not run for mayor. I am self-governing. Besides they would never let someone in office who admited to taking it down :m:
Seriously though I am not interested in what politicians do. There are laws out there that directly infringe upon what I believe to be my basic rights. I just keep my head down.

(Q): Even if you lived in a cave far from any human contact, you'd do yourself and mankind a disservice by living your life based on your beliefs.

Lol. As long as I could still send duendy out foraging for wild mushrooms and other flora I'd be happy! Seriously though, it is comments like these that make you look like an anti-religious fanatic. How would anyone be done a disservice if I lived in a cave!?!

(Q): Mankind is in great need to solve many of the problems created by theists mindsets over the centuries, and it needs every available rational thinking mind to do so in order to curb the extinction the theist movement is racing towards.

Where would you start? How would you persuade me that I am wrong?

peace

c20

 

[c20H25N3o]

alll i am trying to cmmunicate is that i so love Nature. i think it's awesome....wonder-full, beyond belief. and i can get low thinking about what some mindsets--who are talking it for granted, seeing it as dead--have done to it, and continue ......so obviously i am interested in how such mindsets arise

your myth is clear. it is that in its natrual state Nature is believed by you to be 'fallen'....and tat it NEEDS your god 'Jesus Christ' to put-it-right-in-the-future. right?...meaning that now it aint right. ta twe 'Devil' is iin control? hasn't been 'locked up' yet? tat's in your myth isn't it. so i am inquiring. dont you see your myth as dangerous, in tat itmakes you feel uncpmfortable in Nature NOW?

Duendy

I am in as much awe as you of nature. But this world isn't perfect because of human 'nature'. We are damaging the fine balances in place with our over consumption because of greed. We wont stop doing it because of pride. We love money so we rape nature. I lament for the children of the future because they may not have even the beautiful natural things that you and I take for granted now.
Not sure what my faith has to do with your point though?

peace

c20

 

[duendy]

Duendy

I am in as much awe as you of nature. But this world isn't perfect because of human 'nature'. We are damaging the fine balances in place with our over consumption because of greed. We wont stop doing it because of pride. We love money so we rape nature. I lament for the children of the future because they may not have even the beautiful natural things that you and I take for granted now.
Not sure what my faith has to do with your point though?

peace

c20

you will have to remind me..........a short while ago i asked you what the Christin vision was, i am sure you said someting about Hature being 'spiritualized'...what's te Christian term? transfigured...? where the lion lies down with the lamb?...is tis vision...do you assume all WILDNESS will go from Nature?....please point me to your vision or re-explain it for me. cause i am receiving mixed messages from you

we definately agree abot the god of profit that is present god. where Nature is understood by materialistic science to be dead. and that that belief justifes to temselves that trees, animals, water, peoples, Nature is mere commodity. tis is clear. we agree

Hoever....theChristian myth ALSo has taken the spirit out of Nature. EROS is conspiculously absent. your Jesus doesn't seem to have any sex life. your 'God' doesn't seem to have a Goddess. Jesus's mum, the Virgin Mary doesn't even have sex--------actually the real meaning of term 'Virgin' means independent woman--including sexual life, but we know Christian myth doesn't mean that don't we?

I heard you a while back putting down 'fleshy pursuits' as did St Paul in NT. The favoutite sin for Cristian wriers over the centuries has been sexuality/sensuality, MUC more tan other 'sins'---including violence. why do you think that is?

dont know if you've heard of Wilhelm Reich? he has a theory that sexual repression/suppression is a major cause of fascism. tat the lck of really allowing sexual orgasm builds up as rigid tension--"character armour'--which then becomes distorted into sadism etc.

i also add to tha psychedelic ecstasy. which is complewte abandon in Nature, which can include sex, but in its broadest sensual sense. yes--the physical act, but also the very air is sexual,a tree, and so on. THAT sense i feel is dramatically missing in the Cristian myth. ll of that you assign to a 'Devil' and place him under the Earth at the centre of 'matter'.....

 

[KennyJC]

I am in as much awe as you of nature. But this world isn't perfect because of human 'nature'. We are damaging the fine balances in place with our over consumption because of greed. We wont stop doing it because of pride. We love money so we rape nature. I lament for the children of the future because they may not have even the beautiful natural things that you and I take for granted now.

Perhaps just the natural order of life?

 

[(Q)]

I cannot justify nor apologise for Mr Bush. Only he can do that.

But there are many like him, theists clamouring for power - irrational, illogical thiests.

I don't really want to get tied up in words when we both agree that doing harm is not a worthwhile pursuit because it is non productive or counter productive to us.

I think its very important. The theist concepts of good and evil are embedded into our society so much, it is the way we think of things. However, the concept is not only useless but also dangerous since those concepts are relative to the observer.

Therefore, along with religion, these concepts should also be eradicated and replaced with the concept of doing or not doing harm to others.

What's the point of existing in books and memories if people will only refute your existence like they do with Jesus all the time!

Jesus never existed. There are no historical records of him whatsoever.

But, Einstein, for example, cannot be refuted to have existed, nor many other historical figures.

I fail to see how my faith is detrimental to the world as you would have it.

I'm explaining that to you now. Of course, you refuse to accept any of it since it will show your faith as a house of cards.

Well I believe that Cyperium, myself and any other theist have a duty to perform here first.

Your duty to humanity is not to propagate god fantasies. You are failing.

Maybe saying that it supports my beliefs is a bit strong. Probably better to say it doesn't contradict them.

Many other sciences DO contradict them. Why don't you understand that?

Theories however close to the mark are still theories though but I'll keep an open mind.

Evolution is a theory and a fact. Theories will always remain theories. If you are in the sciences, you MUST be working with theories. Why then would you dismiss one theory over another in favor of blind faith?

There are laws out there that directly infringe upon what I believe to be my basic rights.

Religion infringes on my rights. I am taking action.

Where would you start? How would you persuade me that I am wrong?

Simple. Critical thinking on your part will persuade you.

 

[c20H25N3o]

(Q) ...

c20: Where would you start? How would you persuade me that I am wrong?

(Q): Simple. Critical thinking on your part will persuade you.

Let me ask you this. Why do you think I am as convicted as I am? I tell you this, I have never been one for blind faith in anything.

peace

c20

 

[Cris]

c20,

I have never been one for blind faith in anything.

Yet you cannot demonstrate any credible evidence for gods, can you?

 

[c20H25N3o]

c20,

Yet you cannot demonstrate any credible evidence for gods? Can you?

God showed Himself to me when I asked with a tiny pinch of faith. I don't see why you cannot ask and see for yourself, unless your heart and mind is so closed to the idea that He will answer you?

peace

c20

 

[KennyJC]

That is a God which you created yourself, or was created for you by organised religion.

 

[c20H25N3o]

That is a God which you created yourself, or was created for you by organised religion.

Nope. I could not have invented the experience and if I thought there was the slightest possibility I would admit it, it's just the way I am. It was unique, one off and left me in no doubt. I witnessed it rather than constructed it. But now you will say I'm delusional (again )

peace

c20