The Fall of Man? (yes, AGAIN)

[water]

Duendy:

I see you have troubles breaking up quotes.

Each quoted text must have only one set of quote tags; a set of quote tags is
[xQUOTE] [x/QUOTE].
I put the x there so you can see the tags, otherwise the program would automatically make them invisible. When posting a post though, remove the x.

So:
[xQUOTE] quoted text [x/QUOTE]
without the x, this looks thus

quoted text

Note that when you are composing a reply in the advanced reply window, the software here automatically wraps the whole text in quote tags.
To break it up, remove the very first and last quote tag.

Then quote the parts as you need using the [xQUOTE] quoted text [x/QUOTE] form.


You don't need a special machine for this. I can tell you are using the reply window, so you can implement the proper use of tags as well.

 

[one_raven]

You will find that the Garden story is a later version of Sumerian stories. The tale of Adamu, the serpent that stopped Gilgamesh from eating the plant of eternal life and so on.

From a biblical perspective you can also clearly see it's Sumerian origins..

I agree.
I wasn't aware, though, that the Sumerians were a matriarchal society. :bugeye:

 

[one_raven]

do you see it as god testing adam? or adam testing god?

God testing man.

the pre-supposition is that adams relationship to god is only to achieve immortality and sufficient morality.

Not necessarily.
What is a dependent's relationship with its parent?
Protection, guidance, comfort etc.
God offered them eternal bliss.
With eternal bliss, morality is unnecessary.

what does it mean to come of age? i suspect there is a very similar interpretation to mine within this?

I suspect the same thing.
"Coming of age" is that period of time in your life when you assert your independence from your perents and decide to shift the balance of responsibility and accountability of your life, choices and actions to yourself.

 

[Yorda_7]

I see you have troubles breaking up quotes.

He said that he has a 'very limited system'

 

[one_raven]

you seem to take the stance of an apologetic christian.

I don't see that at all.
Please explain.

 

[ellion]

God testing man.

do you imagine that god made adam and gave him those qualities but needed to test him to make sure those qualities wher e functioning?

Not necessarily.
What is a dependent's relationship with its parent?
Protection, guidance, comfort etc.
God offered them eternal bliss.
With eternal bliss, morality is unnecessary.

why is morality unecessary, is eternal bliss a state of inaction? a physically inert, emotionally pleasurable sensation.
or is it that in a state of eternal bliss there can be felt no negative consequence for behaviour?

"Coming of age" is that period of time in your life when you assert your independence from your perents and decide to shift the balance of responsibility and accountability of your life, choices and actions to yourself.

i do think this is similar to my understanding, though you are naturally emphasizing those aspects which are unique to your personal experience.

to gain that independence and to shift that balance of responsibilty there most be a degree of moral reasoning which has become valued as enhancing the individuality of the self.

my point about the fruit being tasted is that gaining of self awareness and responsibility which cannot be taught by peers or gaurdians but most be aquired through direct experience. it ihas to be lived to be known. such things cannot be communicated. you cannot tell somebody what the flavour of an orange is unless they have expereinced that same flavour.
when you know what the flavour of the orange is no one can tell you it taste of strawberry.

when you know good and evil form expereince you know right and wrong. you do not need the guidance of god or parents or the approval of peers. none of these can tell you what is good or bad and you no longer need help in decisions. your eyes are open and you know good and evil as god knows good and evil.

 

[ellion]

He said that he has a 'very limited system'

if he can make a blue quote box he can make one for each section of the reply.


duendy

it does make your post easier to read if you have a structure.

no box at all and some quotation marks, maybe.
or if YOU type with capslock on.

 

[one_raven]

do you imagine that god made adam and gave him those qualities but needed to test him to make sure those qualities wher e functioning?

There is no telling how long it was after they were warned that they ate the fruit.
You raise your children in the way you deem appropriate and correct, but until they take hold of the baton and take their own life into their hands, they were not ready to.
Does that make sense?
I'm not sure if I am wording it correctly.

why is morality unecessary, is eternal bliss a state of inaction? a physically inert, emotionally pleasurable sensation.
or is it that in a state of eternal bliss there can be felt no negative consequence for behaviour?

In a state of bliss, by definiton, can be no negative experience.
Heaven on Earth.

the rest of what you said

I agree.

 

[ellion]

I don't see that at all.
Please explain.

sorry, i cant really justify why i see that. its just the impression i got.

i am someone that dislikes being labelled especially when the label is unjustified and i realise i have done to you exactly what i hate being done to me. i appologize.

 

[ellion]

Does that make sense?

it does.

 

[ellion]

do you imagine that god made adam and gave him those qualities but needed to test him to make sure those qualities wher e functioning?

There is no telling how long it was after they were warned that they ate the fruit.
You raise your children in the way you deem appropriate and correct, but until they take hold of the baton and take their own life into their hands, they were not ready to.
Does that make sense?
I'm not sure if I am wording it correctly.

although it does make sense, i dont see the relationship between this and god testing adam, how are these two realted?

 

[duendy]

can you explain to me in clear and rational terms what silly fucking stories these dangerous elite believe in that makes you so worried about them

OOOOOOOOyou seem thick!

i dont have that dream, do you? you seem to be very concerned about these illuminate and their practices, do you think it is healthy to sacrifice you own power worrying about them?

(((((((((when i see what they are doing o others, and myself, and the freedoms going of fukinc course it worries me. no everyone buries their head in the sand like comfortable you you know.......

have you spoken to them directly about ther beliefs?
how do we know this is true do they have a maniphesto or scriptures that outline their belief?

llllllllloh....go check it madam or sir. i take it you own a computer? whay do you wanna mea to do the job for you?

this is terrible but it is happening with out the aid of any exterme religio-poltical fascism too.

mmmmmmyes. but it is thewy who have the money and the hands on skin-melting techno. a very small elte has the most dosh. i have to tell you EVERYTHINGdont i?

are you selling something? :bugeye:

dddddddddd.....i am tryin to get trough your thicxk thik head is what i am doing!

do i need to be high to interpret genesis in the way you do? what would that mean? but having experienced a variety of altered states of consciousness i still have to say that i cannot see the hallucinogenic metaphors in genesis.

(((((((which shows me that you obviously underestaimte the psychedelic experience. it actually says a lot about you for psychedelics are really triggers....the insights come from YOU. if you aint got em, then is that my fault? you seem to be struggling absorbing what i am pointing at, and pretending to be clever.



are you afraid of men? do you feel protective to wards the purer, softer, feminine aspects of your nature? is this fear that they, the male, wish to control or dominate you?

(((((((do (& wish to be dominated, oppressed? just it gey you off? jeeeez, what the hell are you talking about?does the slave wish to be dominated? what do you say?

i cannot see why this would be a prtoblem unless it isl as i sadi that you have a fear of being controlled or dominated by these illuminated MALE elite.

)))))))))SEE what they are doing. it isn't only happeneing to 'us' but to many people round theplanet. have ypou no compassion?


so is this true then or are ytu just summizing this because you cant conceive it being any other way?
{{{{{{summizing what?:

no thanks, if you dont want to show me it does not matter.

FFFFFFFFFFexactly, you have no intention of making any effort to learn have you. but sat there wityour feet up expect me to type m fingers off explaining, when you also have/seem to have no absorbtion powers. do i seem like fool to you?

no duendy, you told me about the guy who got raided for smoking potent hemp. this when i was asking how you interpret the genetic scripture to be a parable psychadelic experience.

((((((((yes i told you, and your reponse was some kind of smart alec reponse. be real, what do you feel about what happened tp that man, and the culture that does that to that man?....do you have opinions?

i doubt very much there is anyting that will suprise me about substance misuse, particularly the greener substances

((((((((i see. you call it substance misuse? tis is the language of the warmongers against [some] druugs..........was it substance misuse for that guy who needed itfor his awful pain?

it is a waste of energy.

((((((being lazy is a waste of energy?

what utter tosh

ypou do take some gigantic speculative leaps with your eyes shut dont you? where do you get wars from? what war?
WHAT i think IS it is cool to chill?

((((((i a thinking you are thicker than thick the more i put up wit you

are you trying to sell me something else here?
:bugeye:

yes, you are all about buying and selling aren't you? i actually am TRYING to have intelligent discusion......maybe some other time

 

[Cyperium]

you've missed the point, without the knowledge, what god may of said was just gooble de gook to adam, as was the aledged serpents words.

No, is everything a matter of good and evil?

Understanding what is good and what is evil is not the same as knowledge of everything, i'ts the knowledge of good and evil. Man still had knowledge, could still understand language and could still make decisisions. Just not on a basis of good and evil.

Man did not know the consequences (why God didn't want them to eat) and therefor should have trusted God, not because of good and evil, but because it was foolish not to know the consequences and still go against Gods command, and particularly since they would surely die if they did.

We still foolishly go about with our actions without knowing the consequences in these days. Even though we get the consequences we still do it, because we don't understand what consequences originated from what action!

 

[ellion]

duendy i will keep my reply as brief as possible as i am obviously winding you up.

the world needs some form of order if the illumniate have a new order to impose on the world, which they believe is better than our present one, good luck to them.

psychotropic substances fuck with your mind this is well researched, i understand that you think this evidence is to keep us from reaching a higher state of awareness, but if the illuminate want man to have an intellect why do they not advocate these substances? i know from expereince that the substances on the street today do not help us achieve a state of enlightenment and are more likely to induce psychosis. perhaps the real propaganda (and for me the more likely) is to encourage people to become mindless zombies, that live in a dream world, cannot move away from the playstaion or the TV and can be easily controlled.

i would prefer an intelligent discussion also. all you did was rant at me for asking questions about what you believed? i dont want to go searching for illuminate material or do any further experiemnts in chemically altering my mind. i simply wanted to know; why you believe, what you belive, about the illumnaite and how you realted the psychadelic experience to the genesis story.
i am trying to be civil.

 

[duendy]

ok< you dont like it rough>>>>>i@ll try be gentle as can be

bascially this thread@s about the fall of man

we get that idea from the hebrew garden myth

do we take that assertion as a god_given premise or do we seriously question it?

TO DO SO WE HAVE TO LOOK FURTHER AFIELD

who SAID MAN WAS FALLEN?......do you believe it WAS 'God'?....

 

[tablariddim]

This story was devised by men as a parable to describe 1) The wisdom of obedience.. because, had the fruit not been eaten then man would not have fallen from grace and it would have proved the wise thing to do. In this case, it was obedience to God; in the real world, it's telling you that you should be obedient to your higher authority ie your father, your boss and your government. It is a ploy to keep men under the control of their higher authority manipulators.

2) Notice that it was Eve that was led astray by the serpent and then she, in turn, tempted Adam. This was meant to demote women as being weak willed, manipulative and untrustworthy and ultimately lays the fall from grace at their feet; it's women's fault!

The story has absolutely no basis in fact; is totally man-made and is blatant political manipulation.

 

[ellion]

bascially this thread@s about the fall of man

we get that idea from the hebrew garden myth

do we get this idea form the myth or are we told by "other sources" this is the idea presented in the myth? i think me and you see eye to eye on this point, but correct me if i am wrong.

what is a fall and where in genesis does this falling occur? i suspect the fall is an invention of some "other source" for some other purpose, what says you?

TO DO SO WE HAVE TO LOOK FURTHER AFIELD

do we really need to look as far as the psilocybin mushroom? (Psilocybe mexicana)

who SAID MAN WAS FALLEN?......do you believe it WAS 'God'?....

that is a difficult question to answer. to some sense this understanding of man being fallen must be serving a purpose. something does not manifest without summons. whether it was said and whether it is actually the case is a different matter.

but i dont beleive man is fallen, if anything god has fallen for man to rise. that is if we consider our current state of existance to be of lowlier nature than that of the spiritual existence.

 

[duendy]

do we get this idea form the myth or are we told by "other sources" this is the idea presented in the myth? i think me and you see eye to eye on this point, but correct me if i am wrong.

() who knows. lets find out

what is a fall and where in genesis does this falling occur? i suspect the fall is an invention of some "other source" for some other purpose, what says you?

() the myth was elaborTED ON BY EARLY CHRISTIAN translators....but its main giat is that 'god' authority was disobeyed. meaning the authority of the devisers of the tale--as social control, as Tablariddim sees

do we really need to look as far as the psilocybin mushroom? (Psilocybe mexicana)

() this, i feel, is yourmajor blindspot, iffff you dont mind me saying so ooops, too late.
The psychedelic mushoom/plant/sacrament is Central. it is most feared by authority, because authority wants control of your mind, and psychedelic experience is unpredictable. It can inpire the seeing through of the social gaes being played............The Hebrew myth-it being closer to the 'Abominations'--read Goddess religion it is usurping is demonizaing their symbols. it is a warning. a propaganda

that is a difficult question to answer. to some sense this understanding of man being fallen must be serving a purpose. something does not manifest without summons. whether it was said and whether it is actually the case is a different matter.

() yip

but i dont beleive man is fallen, if anything god has fallen for man to rise. that is if we consider our current state of existance to be of lowlier nature than that of the spiritual existence.

i dpont. and the idea of god sacrificing 'himself' is rater the eastern myth....which also is denigratig actual Nature. ie., in indian Upanishadian belief is the subtle duality between the 'One' and the 'Many'.....then te imposition is to get-back-to-te-one.......these oriental ideas inluenced Orphism, Gnosticism etc

i feel Nature is just fine as it is. it is INTELLIGENT, andvastly alife. but what many humans do is concoct absurd stories which make tem feel alienated fomr teir bodies, other people--especially those tey consider lower, and for patriarchal- men--women--and of course, Nature

 

[one_raven]

although it does make sense, i dont see the relationship between this and god testing adam, how are these two realted?

Perhaps "challenge" would be a more appropriate word than "test".
It is a scenario set-up by God, in that when they (mankind) were ready to grasp the gauntlet of self-determinism, it was there.
If they blindly obeyed him, they simply were not ready for it.
The act of eating the fruit (acting on self-determination) was, in itself, proof that they were ready for it.
If they were not ready for self-determination, they would not have disobeyed God by eating the fruit.

 

[ellion]

Perhaps "challenge" would be a more appropriate word than "test".
It is a scenario set-up by God, in that when they (mankind) were ready to grasp the gauntlet of self-determinism, it was there.
If they blindly obeyed him, they simply were not ready for it.
The act of eating the fruit (acting on self-determination) was, in itself, proof that they were ready for it.
If they were not ready for self-determination, they would not have disobeyed God by eating the fruit.

i would agree with this also. again this is not given in the text, so would we have to have some experience of living life or of god in order to come to this interpretation?