The Fall of Man? (yes, AGAIN)

[one_raven]

Yes, you are correct.
I started this thread.
Begin with the first post on page one to get a basic idea of what my interpretation is.
Further posts serve to solidfy the nuances and address original inconsistencies.

 

[duendy]

i would say...FIRST, FIRST, keep in mind that te story is a tale, a myth!...so dont unconsciously premise there actually being a 'reeal' 'God', 'Garden', 'Tree' etcetc...oterwise you cn only get suked into an established unflexible way of understanding the myth AND its ORIGINS....

for exmple, this tale did not originate from the Hebrews. its motifs o Trees, Frit< Serpent or much much more ancient AND PRE-PARIARCHAL

bearing that in mind let's examine it.......when you look at myth it is advisable to try and seek out te associative, and etymological roots o the words used. i say associational first because in pre-literate times there was more a sense of association, as in poetry. myth actually began as song

i am going straight to the point. ready?

the TREE and FRUIT mean psychedelic inspiration!

Serpen in pre-partriarchal undersranding guarded the Earth and its treasures which very much includes TH source of ecstatic inspiration, psychedelic FRUIT. got it?........the biblical patriarchal taledemonizes that understanding. it demonizes the 'Serpent' and the Fruit, and the Goddess/'EVE', and us!

now, dig this, cause this is very very very current. have yo heard of the Illuminati??

you must have heard of 9/11 and 7/7 right? well the secret elite Illuminati are behind these mass murders. And listen closely.....teir belief is in Luciferian philosophy do a google on this)

Now, THEIR interpretation of the Garden myth is this: the belief that the 'Serpent' is 'Lucifer' who is a 'liberator god' who wants 'man' to excercise his intellect --'knowing good and evil', yeah?, and that 'God' who they call 'Adonay' is evil, because he had wanted to keep Adam and Eve prisoners in the Garden

so....do you see how they believe the reverse of the Judeo-Christian version?

what i am saying is that they are both horribly wrong, and we are caught in te middle of this poisonous confusion an literlaization of myth.

what i feel i a much more ancinet and
earth religious understanding is that psychedelics inspiration allows one to understand te Intelligence of Nature. which includes usbecause we are Nature

The strong indicatorator that Judaic christian and luciferian interpreations are completely wrong, is in their ANTI-nature beliefs and ACTIONS

 

[one_raven]

for exmple, this tale did not originate from the Hebrews. its motifs o Trees, Frit< Serpent or much much more ancient AND PRE-PARIARCHAL

What specific pre-patriarchal story was it based on?
Care to link me to it?

bearing that in mind let's examine it.......when you look at myth it is advisable to try and seek out te associative, and etymological roots o the words used. i say associational first because in pre-literate times there was more a sense of association, as in poetry. myth actually began as song

i am going straight to the point. ready?

the TREE and FRUIT mean psychedelic inspiration!

Please point out the etymological evidence and trace the associative roots connecting Tree and Fruit to psychadelic inspiration.

Serpen in pre-partriarchal undersranding guarded the Earth and its treasures which very much includes TH source of ecstatic inspiration, psychedelic FRUIT. got it?

According to what mythology, specifically?

now, dig this, cause this is very very very current. have yo heard of the Illuminati??

Of course.
I have also hear of The Christian God, that doesn't mean I believe it exists.

you must have heard of 9/11 and 7/7 right? well the secret elite Illuminati are behind these mass murders.

You going to back that assertion?

And listen closely.....teir belief is in Luciferian philosophy do a google on this)

Now, THEIR interpretation of the Garden myth is this: the belief that the 'Serpent' is 'Lucifer' who is a 'liberator god' who wants 'man' to excercise his intellect --'knowing good and evil', yeah?, and that 'God' who they call 'Adonay' is evil, because he had wanted to keep Adam and Eve prisoners in the Garden

Sounds more like Satanism than any "Illuminati" vesrion of the story.

so....do you see how they believe the reverse of the Judeo-Christian version?

There is no Judeo-Christian version. The Jews disagree with the Christians on this one, as far as I understand.

what i am saying is that they are both horribly wrong, and we are caught in te middle of this poisonous confusion an literlaization of myth.

Just a few fundamentalists. Most Christians and Jews see this story as a fable.

what i feel i a much more ancinet and
earth religious understanding is that psychedelics inspiration allows one to understand te Intelligence of Nature. which includes usbecause we are Nature

The strong indicatorator that Judaic christian and luciferian interpreations are completely wrong, is in their ANTI-nature beliefs and ACTIONS

What???
Are you on psychodelics right now?

 

[everneo]

the TREE and FRUIT mean psychedelic inspiration!

oh.. man, where have you been for a couple of months?! during your absence this forum has become too much patriarchial without your dose.

 

[SnakeLord]

What specific pre-patriarchal story was it based on?
Care to link me to it?

You will find that the Garden story is a later version of Sumerian stories. The tale of Adamu, the serpent that stopped Gilgamesh from eating the plant of eternal life and so on.

From a biblical perspective you can also clearly see it's Sumerian origins..

Gen 2:10 puts the location of the garden by the Euphrates/Tigris, (which was Sumeria), and indeed the very name of the garden is Sumerian, (eden - from E-din {house of purity}). Sumerian stories state that man was put to work in the gardens of these houses. The bible also tells us that Abraham was from Ur - Sumeria.

Further to that the nephilim are a later story concerning the anunnaki, Moses is based upon the legend of Sargon, Noah is based upon Utnapishtim and so on.

If the garden was in Sumeria as the bible states, then Adam and Eve would have been Sumerians. The fact that Sumerian writing vastly predates the biblical text means that the Sumerian texts would be considered the originals and as a result be vastly more accurate than any version told several thousand years later.

Having said all that, I still have no idea where duendy's dragged up his psychadelic fruit nonsense from.

 

[duendy]

oh me GOOOOOD, you are all so propaganderized about 'psychedelics'.....!
please see...i know it may be tough, but one can only try. there is no more profounder experience you may have than ecstasy wt the aid of psychedelic inspiration....connect the dots. whay do you feel there continues to be a WAR ON drugs, ie. on psychedelic drugs? IF they weren't considered a threatr....now rewiiiind yor miiiind to the Garden myth, in its patriarchal version. what do you ee? what does old '
god' read the male patriarchy elite'--TELL authoritavletAdam and Eve not to do???????????....comon, you at the back of the class, stop sleeping!!...what?

why, not to eatthe FRUIT. now pray, what can you IMAgine this vert very faous 'FRUIT'!!!!!!! can be, in its essential meaning? 'good and eveil'?? just THAT? surely not. it must have a deeper meaning.

for fuk bleedin sake

2+2=.....?

 

[Yorda_7]

You will find that the Garden story is a later version of Sumerian stories. The tale of Adamu, the serpent that stopped Gilgamesh from eating the plant of eternal life and so on.

Do you think the Sumerian story is also taken from somewhere? I think many stories in religions are taken from the stories of the Atlanteans. I don't think the entire story of Moses is a "story", but only parts are... allegorical... so is the story of Noah, a story of the Atlanteans but still not... partly yes

 

[SnakeLord]

oh me GOOOOOD, you are all so propaganderized about 'psychedelics'.....!
please see...i know it may be tough, but one can only try. there is no more profounder experience you may have than ecstasy wt the aid of psychedelic inspiration....connect the dots. whay do you feel there continues to be a WAR ON drugs, ie. on psychedelic drugs? IF they weren't considered a threatr....now rewiiiind yor miiiind to the Garden myth, in its patriarchal version. what do you ee? what does old '
god' read the male patriarchy elite'--TELL authoritavletAdam and Eve not to do???????????....comon, you at the back of the class, stop sleeping!!...what?

why, not to eatthe FRUIT. now pray, what can you IMAgine this vert very faous 'FRUIT'!!!!!!! can be, in its essential meaning? 'good and eveil'?? just THAT? surely not. it must have a deeper meaning.

Sorry, how many "psychadelic" fruits do you know of?

(you can't include mushrooms - because they're not fruits, you can't include cacti - because they're not fruits, and you can't include nutmeg - because it isn't a fruit). What else is there?

 

[ellion]

duendy, you seem to be very troubled.
what has the illuminate to do with genesis and what have either to do with psychadelics.
are you connecting dots that are not in the picture? is this your none literalist way of reading?

why would god create a psychadelic fruit tree that no one could eat from? if no one was to eat from it how they take the trip?

 

[SnakeLord]

Do you think the Sumerian story is also taken from somewhere?

Currently there is nothing to support that idea. It also stands to reason.. Sumerians -> Babylonians -> Akkadians -> Jews. As man travelled inland from the the bottom of modern day Iraq, the stories would have gone with them. This can be seen in the path of these stories from Sumeria and north into the hands of the jews, (of course the daddy of the jews was a Sumerian himself which means he would have already known all those stories and could quite easily do a rewrite of them).

I don't think the entire story of Moses is a "story", but only parts are... allegorical

It's based upon the Legend of Sargon.

And 'Atlanteans' as being people from Atlantis? The fictional place that sunk?

 

[ellion]

Yes, you are correct.
I started this thread.
Begin with the first post on page one to get a basic idea of what my interpretation is.
Further posts serve to solidfy the nuances and address original inconsistencies.

you seem to take the stance of an apologetic christian.

 

[ellion]

God was giving man a choice:
Mankind could stay in this blissfully ignorant paradise with God to serve and obey him if he so chose.
His other option was to go it alone. To seek knowledge on his own, make up his own mind and make decisions for himself. In short, he could grasp free will.

god gave adam a warning!

What was it a test of?
It was a test of man's courage, fortitude and drive to be independent.

do you see it as god testing adam? or adam testing god?

God knew that if man had access to the Tree of Life, that he would wholly and completely reject God because he did not need him anymore. With eternal life and self-sufficient morality, what purpose would God serve?

the pre-supposition is that adams relationship to god is only to achieve immortality and sufficient morality.

Adam and Eve is a story of the coming of age of mankind.
The kids leaving the nest.

what does it mean to come of age? i suspect there is a very similar interpretation to mine within this?

 

[Yorda_7]

It's based upon the Legend of Sargon.

moses copied from sargon.

And 'Atlanteans' as being people from Atlantis? The fictional place that sunk?

not fictional. even great philosophers like plato wrote about it, he said it sunk in an earthquake.

it is said that "the Atlantis-race became a nation of wicked magicians." the flood.

u probably think it's weird how i believe in all kinds of "fantasy", but it's because they have such cool names like atlantis, lemuria and poseidon, so they must be true.

the egyptians are said to be the descended from an alien race.... Egyptian Zodiacs show more than 75,000 years of observation

i'm beginning to think that there's truth in all myths.

 

[duendy]

Sorry, how many "psychadelic" fruits do you know of?

(you can't include mushrooms - because they're not fruits, you can't include cacti - because they're not fruits, and you can't include nutmeg - because it isn't a fruit). What else is there?

fiar enough, good honest question,,,,,,,,,but let me say, you are being literal. myth isn't to read read like that. te whole trouble is people rading myth from a literalist basis, not wanting to understand the etymology, etc of words, the mindset of te times and so on....and, importantly eeing how any myth is a hybrid of other influences

ok 'fruit'....fruit is a metphor. it doesn't mean it has to be an apple, pear, strawberry.....when some saying says 'the "fruit" of your labour' etc., tey dont actually mean actual fruit do they?....that is mephor for te fruting of your action
well same wit the FRUIT OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL......it is a myria of meanings;

secretly pointing ro psychedelic 'fruit', the experience, and in the patriarchal case a warning about such 'fruit'--ie., inspiration which might lead one to disobey 'God'. now 'GOD' is really a metaphor for the ones who devised 'HIM', a male elite/patriarchy, who want control, and dont want you having access to any substance that might threaten their mind-control over you. THIS is still VERY much going on, in AUgust 2005!

 

[(Q)]

u probably think it's weird how i believe in all kinds of "fantasy", but it's because they have such cool names like atlantis, lemuria and poseidon, so they must be true.

So, if someone makes up a cool name for their fantasy, you'll believe it true?

What about Unicorn, Ork, Dragon, Centaur, Harpie, Amphiptere, Amphisbaena, Basilisk, Chimera, Cockatrice, Hydra, Gorgon, Wyvern, Ipotane, Lamia, Manticore, Caladrius, Gansas, Hippogriff, Martlet, Bonnacon, Bunyip, Cerberus, Gulon, Ibex, Mantygre, Mermecolion, Musimon, Yppotryll, Kraken, Nereid, Mermaid, Scylla?

Do you believe in these creatures as well?

 

[duendy]

duendy, you seem to be very troubled.

(((((((well, on one level, my reponse isn't meant to be seriously rude. it is both tongue in cheek yet also deadly seriuus. regarding actually being troubled. we ALL should be trouboed in these times, if not in denial. terrble terrible tings are being down by psychopathic pople in power believing in silly fukin stories. and we all will suffer less they and more importantly 'usa' gu;llibles wake up. seriously

what has the illuminate to do with genesis and what have either to do with psychadelics.

ccccccccwell, if you care to research a bit about te beliefs of te Illuminati, you'll see it is Luciferian. if your American go get a dollar bill. look at the symbol on it of a pyramid wit an eye at the top. all that is part of teir Luciferian belief.
regarding their cvonnection wit genessis. as said they interpret it to mean--te Garden myth--that te 'Serpent' IS 'Lucifer' and that this 'angel of light' is the 'good god' who wants 'man' (read white man of aryan stock to have 'INTELLECT'...rght? now their justification for their techological prowess is that IDEA. tis mans tey are extemel;y dangerous. thewy feel that they can be/become 'gods' for as you know, in that story theere is said 'ye can become gods' if thewy eat the fruit of knowledge.......now the deeper understanding of this myth--as is etymologically shown by Allegro, is that both trees in the garden ae the same. so ewating the fruit of one is the same as the other.....rigt?
but for now--the important point is that men are believing tis story to justify their genocidal ecocidal intentions. they hVE PSYCHOLOGICALY DIVIDED intellect from FEELINS, emotions, heart. and tus are anti-Nature. they are presetly destroying Nature wit their madness

are you connecting dots that are not in the picture? is this your none literalist way of reading?

OOOOOOOwell you are making a blind assumption here. you dpont know what i know...the 'dots' which are patterns. where would i begin. this needs intuition, and intellect, and keeping to it. only you can do that. i cant MAKE you see the dots can i?

why would god create a psychadelic fruit tree that no one could eat from? if no one was to eat from it how they take the trip?

exctly why would '
god'??? so we have to then boldy wonder, wo IS tis god in tis story who is coming down heavy on our ancestors for simply wanting to eat fruit.....why would he not want that?


tis is a vast question, and is not just to do with then but now (nth exclaation marks

was reading an articlea short while ago...listen. tis guy is suffering terribly from a disease. he's tried everything, only hemp--the variety that makes you high--is of any help tp him. he got permissioon from his doctor to grow it. then he gets raided by a gang of drug squaddies who tear up the few plants he got. even thoug he had showed them the papers. they said they didn't follow te jurisdiction of that county (in the USA)....he had to wait 6 excruciatingly painul months before he was 'ALLOWED.....ALLOWED' to grow natral plant

now. check the dots....do you get me?

 

[ellion]

regarding actually being troubled. we ALL should be trouboed in these times, if not in denial. terrble terrible tings are being down by psychopathic pople in power believing in silly fukin stories. and we all will suffer less they and more importantly 'usa' gu;llibles wake up. seriously

what are they doing? what silly fucking stories do they believe in?

if you care to research a bit about te beliefs of te Illuminati, you'll see it is Luciferian. if your American go get a dollar bill. look at the symbol on it of a pyramid wit an eye at the top. all that is part of teir Luciferian belief.

and this is troubling you because....?

regarding their cvonnection wit genessis. as said they interpret it to mean--te Garden myth--that te 'Serpent' IS 'Lucifer' and that this 'angel of light' is the 'good god' who wants 'man' (read white man of aryan stock to have 'INTELLECT'...rght?

a much more palusible interpretation than psychadelic fruit. sorry, i dont mean to be rude, but i can see where they might come to this conclusion but i cannot see how you arrive at the hallucinogenic interpretation.

now their justification for their techological prowess is that IDEA. tis mans tey are extemel;y dangerous.

you think they are dangerous becasue they believe the serpent wants man to be intelligent. i think the christian ideals are more dangerous than this.

thewy feel that they can be/become 'gods' for as you know, in that story theere is said 'ye can become gods' if thewy eat the fruit of knowledge

yes, again i can see how they might interpret this from the text but why that is a problem i cannot see.

but for now--the important point is that men are believing tis story to justify their genocidal ecocidal intentions. they hVE PSYCHOLOGICALY DIVIDED intellect from FEELINS, emotions, heart. and tus are anti-Nature. they are presetly destroying Nature wit their madness

this is bad if it is true but how can we be sure it is true? do you know how they have divided intellect form emotions? is this division in them selves or in pother people and how does this division make them anti-nature?

i cant MAKE you see the dots can i?

you can point them out.

was reading an articlea short while ago...listen. tis guy is suffering terribly from a disease. he's tried everything, only hemp--the variety that makes you high--is of any help tp him. he got permissioon from his doctor to grow it. then he gets raided by a gang of drug squaddies who tear up the few plants he got. even thoug he had showed them the papers. they said they didn't follow te jurisdiction of that county (in the USA)....he had to wait 6 excruciatingly painul months before he was 'ALLOWED.....ALLOWED' to grow natral plant

iam geussing that you think the tree is the weed and that god is the policemen and the garden is someones attic and adam just wanted to get stoned and laze about all day easing his pains and feeling the blues.

now. check the dots....do you get me?

:m: yeah, i get ya!

 

[Yorda_7]

So, if someone makes up a cool name for their fantasy, you'll believe it true?

It doesn't necessarily have to be true "physically", but it could still be true. Ex: the garden of Eden is allegorical, yet it's a real event.

The story must also sound good. It's a sign that the people who created it were wise, they thought about it carefully and had a purpose with it. But it's not so simple. You also have to have an intuition. So sometimes there may be a nice story and names, and still I wouldn't believe in it.

Lemuria and Atlantis were physical realities. The initiates can recognize whether stories are true or false, allegorical or physical etc..

What about Unicorn, Ork, Dragon, Centaur, Harpie, Amphiptere, Amphisbaena, Basilisk, Chimera, Cockatrice, Hydra, Gorgon, Wyvern, Ipotane, Lamia, Manticore, Caladrius, Gansas, Hippogriff, Martlet, Bonnacon, Bunyip, Cerberus, Gulon, Ibex, Mantygre, Mermecolion, Musimon, Yppotryll, Kraken, Nereid, Mermaid, Scylla?

Do you believe in these creatures as well?

I think many of those are symbols for something real.

For example, if I said that I believe in Centaurs, it would mean that I believe in the meaning of the Centaur. They were never real (in the way you define real) creatures. It's a sign in the Zodiac. It is a representation of a person who lives above his animal desires and uses his body only as an tool to reach the goal (he IS not the animal body)

---

Even fictional stories can include truth, which the creators aren't even aware of. You have seen movies. For there to be a good movie, they must follow specific laws.

God, the self expresses itself through all things. The human body quite advanced, so God can express himself pretty good, but this also means that God's opposite, satan, the spirit of matter, can also express itself pretty good... But only through someone like Jesus, God can express himself fully.

Art is what comes from within, and the self is "God". Everything that is good comes from the self. So even if movies, video games, books, and music are "fictional", they contain truth. What is good, what we are attracted to, is good because it imitates our lost self.

Artists don't often think about what they create or where it comes from. They just do it intuitively. Then people come and try to understand what was the purpose, what they were "thinking" while creating it. They just receive it from "above" (within)

 

[duendy]

what are they doing? what silly fucking stories do they believe in?

That they are 'god' or 'gods' i've just explained it.
if you have a belief that uyou are an elite, and god or more close to your idea of god, and tis god wants blood sacrifice what do you do? you liv e out that ddream right? that story yo tell your self you act upon.

and this is troubling you because....?

They believe in a new world order. that presewntly they are making parts of the earth uninhabitable for generations, and children are being born with horrendous genetic deformations, and cancers, etc. what do you NEED?



a much more palusible interpretation than psychadelic fruit. sorry, i dont mean to be rude, but i can see where they might come to this conclusion but i cannot see how you arrive at the hallucinogenic interpretation.

))))))))have you had it? if not,either it didn't much of an effect on you, or you aren't aware of the power o psychedeli experience.



you think they are dangerous becasue they believe the serpent wants man to be intelligent. i think the christian ideals are more dangerous than this.

ooooooooyes, they are both as dangerous as each other. they feed off each other for their roots are patriarchal, which very much involves a deep fear of Nature

yes, again i can see how they might interpret this from the text but why that is a problem i cannot see.

EEEEEEEEsee above


this is bad if it is true but how can we be sure it is true? do you know how they have divided intellect form emotions? is this division in them selves or in pother people and how does this division make them anti-nature?

.........IF they hadn't psycholigically divided deep feeling from intellect, they couldn't do what they do/are doing!

you can point them out.

pppppppoint what out? psychedelic references?.....checkout the writings of J.M.Allegro, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, DAn Russel's Shamanism and the Drug Propaganda, GOrdon Wasson, etc. the information is out there/ also do some google searches with key terms

iam geussing that you think the tree is the weed and that god is the policemen and the garden is someones attic and adam just wanted to get stoned and laze about all day easing his pains and feeling the blues.

OOOOOOOOno. ypou are creeating a phony myth out of what i am saying. psychedelic experience is much more powerful than 'weed', though of course hemp features VERY much and in our own. you should go check outthe story of hemp, it may surpise you!
so what is wrong with being lazy? ypou tink it cool to always be at war?

:m: yeah, i get ya!

are you takin the piss?

 

[ellion]

what are they doing? what silly fucking stories do they believe in?

That they are 'god' or 'gods' i've just explained it.

can you explain to me in clear and rational terms what silly fucking stories these dangerous elite believe in that makes you so worried about them.

if you have a belief that uyou are an elite, and god or more close to your idea of god, and tis god wants blood sacrifice what do you do? you liv e out that ddream right?

i dont have that dream, do you? you seem to be very concerned about these illuminate and their practices, do you think it is healthy to sacrifice you own power worrying about them?

They believe in a new world order.

have you spoken to them directly about ther beliefs?
how do we know this is true do they have a maniphesto or scriptures that outline their belief?

presewntly they are making parts of the earth uninhabitable for generations, and children are being born with horrendous genetic deformations, and cancers, etc.

this is terrible but it is happening with out the aid of any exterme religio-poltical fascism too.

what do you NEED?

are you selling something? :bugeye:

a much more plausible interpretation than psychadelic fruit. sorry, i dont mean to be rude, but i can see where they might come to this conclusion but i cannot see how you arrive at the hallucinogenic interpretation.

have you had it? if not,either it didn't much of an effect on you, or you aren't aware of the power o psychedeli experience.

do i need to be high to interpret genesis in the way you do? what would that mean? but having experienced a variety of altered states of consciousness i still have to say that i cannot see the hallucinogenic metaphors in genesis.

ooooooooyes, they are both as dangerous as each other. they feed off each other for their roots are patriarchal, which very much involves a deep fear of Nature.

are you afraid of men? do you feel protective to wards the purer, softer, feminine aspects of your nature? is this fear that they, the male, wish to control or dominate you?

yes, again i can see how they might interpret this from the text but why that is a problem i cannot see.

EEEEEEEEsee above

i cannot see why this would be a prtoblem unless it isl as i sadi that you have a fear of being controlled or dominated by these illuminated MALE elite.

.IF they hadn't psycholigically divided deep feeling from intellect, they couldn't do what they do/are doing!

so is this true then or are ytu just summizing this because you cant conceive it being any other way?

pppppppoint what out? psychedelic references?.....checkout the writings of J.M.Allegro, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, DAn Russel's Shamanism and the Drug Propaganda, GOrdon Wasson, etc. the information is out there/ also do some google searches with key terms

no thanks, if you dont want to show me it does not matter.

no. ypou are creeating a phony myth out of what i am saying. psychedelic experience is much more powerful than 'weed',

no duendy, you told me about the guy who got raided for smoking potent hemp. this when i was asking how you interpret the genetic scripture to be a parable psychadelic experience.

though of course hemp features VERY much and in our own. you should go check outthe story of hemp, it may surpise you!

i doubt very much there is anyting that will suprise me about substance misuse, particularly the greener substances

so what is wrong with being lazy?

it is a waste of energy.

ypou tink it cool to always be at war?

ypou do take some gigantic speculative leaps with your eyes shut dont you? where do you get wars from? what war?
WHAT i think IS it is cool to chill?

are you takin the piss?

are you trying to sell me something else here?
:bugeye: