The Disclosure Project

battista

tho tedious......
we agreed that the charge of ignorance was partially directed at you. you ask....

Giambattista said:
Who is this you speak of?

light replies....

Light said:
If you'll bother to read the actual quote you are refering to here, you'll clearly see that I was talking about people who produced the things "you have reproduced here."

it is true that the charge of ignorance was mainly directed at the "writers"
but if one bothers to read the actual quote we find..

light said:
This isn't so much directed at you, Giambattista

....that it is somewhat directed at you

he omitted to mention it. he selectively extracted a portion of his accusation and presented it as a whole. kapeesh?
 
Gustav said:
it is true that the charge of ignorance was mainly directed at the "writers"
but if one bothers to read the actual quote we find..

....that it is somewhat directed at you

he omitted to mention it. he selectively extracted a portion of his accusation and presented it as a whole. kapeesh?

Ay. Me awares real good about it. Not too stoopid, me not! ;)

His rant was a spurious one, and the very assured, arrogant attitude he took, especially the lumping of everyone together for a group insult, made me a tad itchy.

I fail to see how a legitimate scientist (Levengood holds 2 separate degrees in the biological sciences) doing legitimate analysis of plant materials from various crop circles constitutes pseudoscience. Or gives license to those self-appointed mullahs of "true" science to hold their noses up high, as if they were beacons to lead us through the thick fog of credulity, idiocy, and irrational belief (oh, God! Help us! :rolleyes: ) to the safehaven of rational scientism.

Although in a few cases, other scientists have corroborated his findings, others have also contradicted them as well. Regrettably, there has not been enough research by other scientists, which is one reason why Levengood and his results have been thrown into question.

One interesting finding was a statistically anomalous crystallization of a type of clay soil found within a crop circle as compared with the control samples from outside the circle. Several scientists who were cooperating with Levengood and BLT research were involved in the analysis.
The crystallization anomaly was suggested by a geologist, Diane Conrad, who was testing the ideas of her master's thesis, involving the effects of heat on clay minerals. She posited that if microwave energies (or some other unknown energy) were indeed a facet in crop circle formation, that there may also be detectable changes in the soils within the affected area.

She had, incidentally, heard of Levengood's theories about crop circles after he did a radio interview about a circle which had formed very near her home in Utah, and decided to do her own investigation of the circle. After finding a noticeable difference in the samples as opposed to controls, these results were sent to BLT Research, which spurred a more in-depth analysis of another case, this time occuring near Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

Dr. Robert C. Reynolds, a geologist/mineralogist who specialises in clay minerals, was consulted to review the results. In his comments, he said:

"After analysis of these samples in my laboratory, I am convinced that the sample preparation methods and the X-ray analytical procedures used were consistent with sound, standard methods of analysis. In short, the data have been obtained by competent personnel using current equipment."

Here we have a third party confirming the validity of the methods used by BLT Research and the other scientists who were involved, which would seem to suggest that accusations of Levengood and his methods being biased and/or flawed are hasty.

From BLT's summary of the analyses:

In Reynold's words, "the possiblity of crystal growth seems remote." The degree of pressure known to be involved in causing crystal growth in sedimentary deposits would have, had it been present, completely obliterated the plants. And the 600-800ßC temperatures, over a period several hours, known to be necessary to promote such crystal growth in the laboratory would have, in the crop circle field, incinerated any plant material present. Additionally, the very brief bursts of possibly intense microwave radiation thought to be the cause of node-elongation and the creation of expulsion cavities (through heating and expansion of internal stem moisture) could not account for crystal growth.

Our present knowledge provides no explanation for these results. It is unlikely that an atmospheric plasma vortex system could account for the changes observed in the clay minerals. The data, however, rule out direct mechanical flattening of the crop circle plants by human beings utilizing planks or boards as an explanation for this event.
Control studies carried out by BLT over the last several years have shown that significant node-length increase and expulsion cavities do not occur in crop flattened by boards or planks, human feet or cement rollers, or to crop which has been 100% over-fertilized. And, since either geologic pressure and/or intense heat is required to cause decrease in KI of the clay minerals--and neither can be produced by planks, boards, cement rollers, feet, etc.--this, or a similar mechanical mechanism, must be ruled out. It is our intent to carry out additional plant and soil research in an attempt to replicate the results of this XRD study, if funding can be obtained.

They also note, quite interestingly:

It should be mentioned that the farmer/owner of the field and his wife, as well as an unrelated individual, reported dramatic aerial light phenomena in the immediate area of this crop field around the time the formation was discovered, as well as the fact that cell phone failure was observed during sampling inside the formation. Reports of similar events at other cropcircle sites around the world are increasingly common. Whether these incidents are relevant is not known, but it is our opinion that they should not be dismissed without investigation if further scientific study cannot provide an adequate explanation for the data.

The numerous eyewitness accounts of both light and electrical phenomena, as Talbott rightfully notes, should not merely be dismissed, since in these cases they seem to have a direct connection to the circles.

The results of this particular study, with multiple researchers in different areas involved, it becomes clear that Levengood should not be summarily dismissed as a charlatan, or, as Light inferred, a man whose work is simply "poppycock".
 
Giambattista said:
The results of this particular study, with multiple researchers in different areas involved, it becomes clear that Levengood should not be summarily dismissed as a charlatan, or, as Light inferred, a man whose work is simply "poppycock".

Two things - first, I do not know the man personally nor have I looked into his work to any degree. The only thing I have to go on is what I reported earlier, the opinions of others. However , I do not mind in the least saying that some of his results do look "interesting" on the surface.

Second - and are you ready for this?? I would be perfectly delighted to no limit for him to be vindicated in every assertion he has made!

Why? Simply because I think it might serve as a catalyst to encourage more people to become involved in scientific efforts. The young people today - ages 16 to 25 or so - are at one of the lowest points ever for having any interest in any part of anything to do with science. They visualize it as being almost as bad as pure math (as they view math) as being the most boring, dry, least interesting thing in the whole world.

If all this could be proven and accepted as a true indication of some kind of ET activity - or at the very least something 'better' than stories of ghost and haunted houses - it could serve to perk up their interest.
 
Notice in their summary of the results:

Control studies carried out by BLT over the last several years have shown that significant node-length increase and expulsion cavities do not occur in crop flattened by boards or planks, human feet or cement rollers, or to crop which has been 100% over-fertilized.

They have reproduced their own crop circles, and have failed to note the major characteristics of the so-called authentic crop circles. They also state this elsewhere on their website.

I am reminded of an excerpt in a Skeptical Inquirer article:
As well, more mundane hypotheses for the effects-for instance, compressed moist plants steaming in the hot sun-appear to have been insufficiently considered.

And they KNOW this for a FACT?

From an article examining the phenomenon in general, we find this observation about Joe Nickell's comment...

Nickell's argument that "more mundane hypotheses for the effects-for instance, compressed moist plants steaming in the hot sun-appear to have been insufficiently considered" is not supported by any references. By making the positive claim that steam can account for the results observed by Levengood, he ceases to be a skeptic and becomes a claimant, and thus must also bear the burden of proof. Just throwing out an idle alternative hypothesis that could conceivable account for the results is insufficient.

Bearing the burden of proof: something that skeptics often don't seem to care about themselves, but will gladly push onto someone else's back. And no, this isn't merely about "extraordinary claims" and "extraordinary evidence". This is about their methods in general.
Like throwing out any scientific sounding explanation, and hoping that it sticks. In some cases, they are very hasty and poorly constructed hypotheses, yet supposedly they pass muster simply because it is a dignified and rational skeptic, not a credulous woowoo making the claim.

Dr. Bruce Maccabee illustrates this phenomenon succinctly with his First Law of Debunking:
Any explanation is better than none.

His Second Law is this:
if the first explanation seems unconvincing or is contradicted by "evidence" propose another.

And we also witness the very selective way in which eyewitness testimony is used. Even the vaguest, most cursory anecdotal testimony will be accepted if it aids the skeptic's conclusion. Simultaneously, even the most expert eyewitness (multiple observers, at times) will be dismissed out of hand with a simple remark "Oh, anyone can be fooled!" if their testimony contradicts the skeptic's conclusion.

I think of the orbs of light or other objects seen near crop circles (as mentioned above), or the effects on electronic gadgets such as cameras, or in at least one case, a very disturbingly loud noise that was experienced over a wireless microphone upon entering a circle. We also have people reporting physical sensations, or animals who become very unnerved in the vicinity of some circles.
The point is, these may all very well be useful, pertinent details of authentic side-effects that often accompany authentically formed circles (meaning NOT by human hoaxing), but if it doesn't serve the skeptic's interest, it may easily be written off as imagination, and nothing more.

There are some very good examples of just this kind of thing. Maybe later.

You can bet on it, Betty! ;)

And now, this...

It's just a Piper Cub, Betty. Get in the car, Betty, they're coming around!

Those eyes: I don't like those eyes. That man's a NAZI! I gotta get my gun!


Name the actor, win a prize...
 
Giambattista said:
You can bet on it, Betty! ;)

And now, this...

It's just a Piper Cub, Betty. Get in the car, Betty, they're coming around!

Those eyes: I don't like those eyes. That man's a NAZI! I gotta get my gun!


Name the actor, win a prize...
Sounds a lot like Bogart.
 
Light said:
Two things - first, I do not know the man personally nor have I looked into his work to any degree. The only thing I have to go on is what I reported earlier, the opinions of others. However , I do not mind in the least saying that some of his results do look "interesting" on the surface.

Second - and are you ready for this?? I would be perfectly delighted to no limit for him to be vindicated in every assertion he has made!

Much more reasonable than the Light I encountered before.

This seems to be a reversal of your know-it-all attitude that I was witness to earlier. You know, the one that insisted right off the bat that all of this was hearsay, pseudoscience in the fullest respect of the word?

You even insisted that the subject of crop circles belonged in the PSEUDOSCIENCE forum, NOT with regular science, despite the fact that you seemed to know very little in regard to the whole thing. Despite the fact that real scientists are at least attempting to examine it. Despite the fact that real scientists have come up with some anomalous findings, preliminary or not. Isn't that what science is SUPPOSED to do? And it belongs in pseudoscience regardless of those studies for WHAT REASON???

When I saw your statement about being in the "middle" I immediately remembered your brash statements to the contrary, and couldn't help but say something.

I resent having legitimate and rational conversations about these subjects and having them automatically labelled as pseudoscience. It shows the arrogance AND the ignorance of the pathological skeptic in its natural environment, doing what it was apparently designed to do: naysay and deny at any cost. If you would examine these people, you will find the characteristics I mentioned earlier in abundance:

1. the assumption that any simplistic answer will do, as long as it SOUNDS like science, and doesn't involve ETs and any other "pseudoscience"
2. selective and subjective acceptance of testimony, keeping what fits and discarding what doesn't
3. making proclamations outright, with the assumption that no one will question them
4. when the above fails to work, ridicule the witness and subject them to infinitely stringent scrutinizing, to the point that you can conclude that they are indeed worthless as an observer

As regards your hopes for a science-rejecting generation, I don't know what to say. I guess it is noble.

If all this could be proven and accepted as a true indication of some kind of ET activity - or at the very least something 'better' than stories of ghost and haunted houses - it could serve to perk up their interest.

There are plenty of people who would tell you that there IS evidence enough to spark their interests (and the interests of those already in the field) but sadly much of it has been given the treatment outlined by the four points I made above (a rough sketch, admittedly).
It's the phenomenon of raising the bar ever higher. The more bizarre the case, and the better the witnesses, the harder the skeptic works to fit the case into a mundane package.
 
Giambattista said:
It's the phenomenon of raising the bar ever higher. The more bizarre the case, and the better the witnesses, the harder the skeptic works to fit the case into a mundane package.

And hilariously, even when the package won't close right, and the contents are showing, they will tell you that it is indeed adequately wrapped.

Even more hilarious, is when they merely TELL people that the package is wrapped, but on examination, it is found that certain items weren't even put in the package in the first place, because they simply wouldn't fit. It is at this point that things begin to look a little absurd for the hopeful skeptic.

You see, they WANT to believe that they have the answer. ;)
 
Giambattista said:
Much more reasonable than the Light I encountered before.

This seems to be a reversal of your know-it-all attitude that I was witness to earlier. You know, the one that insisted right off the bat that all of this was hearsay, pseudoscience in the fullest respect of the word?
The operative word there is "seems." I'm not quite the stolid, closed-minded individual that I appear at times. Here's the problem: things like this draw out the loonies like flies to sugar. And in turn, that generates distaste (for me and others) of the whole topic. And a great deal of that has to do with the fact that the loonies talk the most and the loudest and pretty well overwhelm those with serious intents and perhaps a bit of real information.

I will NOT deny that I still believe the whole crop circle may well be nothing more than a hoax. But I also sincerely hope, precisely for the reasons I expressed, that it is not. And that I would also like to think that we're not alone in this whole vast Universe.

Allow me to expand on that. Given the sheer number of stars that must exist, it's impossible for me to believe that there are not countless numbers of lifeforms somewhere out there. But here's where the doubt DOES creep in. Unless they've discovered a way to overcome the speed of light limit or have exceedingly long lifespans, it's a bit difficult to see how/why they would be visiting us.

And a major rub is if they would go to the trouble of distance/time/effort/whatever to get here, why simply make extravagant designs in agricultural fields? Many suggest - no, perhaps insist is a better term - that it's an attempt to communicate. Does that not seem like a rather crude manner of communications for beings that have the ability to travel such vast distances? It seems it could be compared to ancient explorers of our own world to spend months crossing huge oceans simply to make markings in the beach sand of distant shores and then quickly leave. So I have a very hard time accepting that version.

One final thing for now, a quote from your post following this one:

"And hilariously, even when the package won't close right, and the contents are showing, they will tell you that it is indeed adequately wrapped.

Even more hilarious, is when they merely TELL people that the package is wrapped, but on examination, it is found that certain items weren't even put in the package in the first place, because they simply wouldn't fit. It is at this point that things begin to look a little absurd for the hopeful skeptic.

You see, they WANT to believe that they have the answer."


I'm sure you realize that every bit of that cuts both ways. eh? ;) Because the exact same thing can be said of the "solid believers." :D
 
Giambattista said:
And hilariously, even when the package won't close right, and the contents are showing, they will tell you that it is indeed adequately wrapped.

Even more hilarious, is when they merely TELL people that the package is wrapped, but on examination, it is found that certain items weren't even put in the package in the first place, because they simply wouldn't fit. It is at this point that things begin to look a little absurd for the hopeful skeptic.

You see, they WANT to believe that they have the answer. ;)

Do you honestly think the board of Csicop, for example, believe in what they're doing? Some of them are likely deep occultists, involved in mind control programs of all kinds. They're adepts and they don't want anyone to know what consciousness is and how and at what point it intersects with "other" intelligence. Their explanations are so hideously lame, you can tell they're not meant to convince the serious and thoughtful, they're designed to create a smokescreen to keep the thoughtless in that state, in perpetuity.

Did you see "Eyes Wide Shut" Do you think Kubrick may have known a thing or two?
 
Light said:
The operative word there is "seems." I'm not quite the stolid, closed-minded individual that I appear at times. Here's the problem: things like this draw out the loonies like flies to sugar. And in turn, that generates distaste (for me and others) of the whole topic. And a great deal of that has to do with the fact that the loonies talk the most and the loudest and pretty well overwhelm those with serious intents and perhaps a bit of real information.
I'm sure you realize that every bit of that cuts both ways, eh? hee hee hee..

Light said:
I will NOT deny that I still believe the whole crop circle may well be nothing more than a hoax. But I also sincerely hope, precisely for the reasons I expressed, that it is not. And that I would also like to think that we're not alone in this whole vast Universe.

Allow me to expand on that. Given the sheer number of stars that must exist, it's impossible for me to believe that there are not countless numbers of lifeforms somewhere out there. But here's where the doubt DOES creep in. Unless they've discovered a way to overcome the speed of light limit or have exceedingly long lifespans, it's a bit difficult to see how/why they would be visiting us.

It must be remembered (I think I said that before?) that ET was not the only non-human hypothesis put forward to explain crop circles.

And a major rub is if they would go to the trouble of distance/time/effort/whatever to get here, why simply make extravagant designs in agricultural fields? Many suggest - no, perhaps insist is a better term - that it's an attempt to communicate. Does that not seem like a rather crude manner of communications for beings that have the ability to travel such vast distances? It seems it could be compared to ancient explorers of our own world to spend months crossing huge oceans simply to make markings in the beach sand of distant shores and then quickly leave. So I have a very hard time accepting that version.
I was just thinking this over earlier. First of all, if there IS a veritable mystery with some of these circles, it isn't certain that there are really non-human intellegences involved, though it IS a distinct possibility.
Second of all, human reasoning may have NOTHING to do with alien reasoning. People seem to think because aliens have come ALL this way (assuming they actually originated on another planet) and haven't landed at the White House, that they therefore don't exist because they seem illogical to us.
That is a very giant leap in reasoning that people shouldn't be so quick to make.
Some researchers, notably Jacques Vallee, have not only noted, but attempted to expound upon, the very bizarre nature of the phenomenon of UFOs and/or ETs. If one takes all accounts, from the vague and spurious to the detailed, highly documented and difficult to explain, and makes a generalization of the entire thing, we have, overall, an enigma that does what it wants, when it wants, and how it wants, regardless of what humans expect.
If one supposes that some of these are indeed non-human craft, one should also suppose, then, that their record of behavior implies that they are not interested (at least at this time) of establishing formal contact with any government.
And despite the cries from overzealous naysayers (who may use it as another reason to discount the possibility of ETH), why should we expect them, if they are real, to behave how we want them to, or to conform to our expectations? Why do our assumptions of their intents, which are based on our own reasoning and backgrounds, dictate what supposed aliens would do, or how they would go about it, and why? Why do we think that what WE would do is the same as what THEY would do?
Do they have an agenda that defines how they conduct their secretive affairs?

Agendas: Certain agencies in the US now have the ability to do a lot of surveillance without any oversite. Should we assume that they just don't have the time to get a court-order or warrant, and that they only want to protect people and that their new powers won't get abused? Should we assume that they WEREN'T doing this before the law allowing them to do it legally was even passed? With their track record, can we take their "Yes" or their "No" at face value? We shouldn't jump to conclusions that they are always telling us the truth. They may have other agendas.
In the same way, we shouldn't assume that ETs would have the agenda that we, on planet Earth, envision them to have. They could be much less friendly than people want them to be. In fact, they could be quite sinister even.


Light said:
One final thing for now, a quote from your post following this one:

"And hilariously, even when the package won't close right, and the contents are showing, they will tell you that it is indeed adequately wrapped.

You see, they WANT to believe that they have the answer."


I'm sure you realize that every bit of that cuts both ways. eh? ;) Because the exact same thing can be said of the "solid believers." :D

Deja vu??? Yes, I am well aware of two-way street, believe me. However, one direction seems to receive the lion's share of criticism and ridicule, even when the criticisms may well lack the foundation that they claim to be built on.
 
It must be remembered (I think I said that before?) that ET was not the only non-human hypothesis put forward to explain crop circles.

I would also like to peep that the link between UFOs/mysterious lights and crop circles is circumstancial. There are a number of "balls of light" or "orbs" that seem to be associated with some of these formations. Whether they are a form of intelligence, or directly connected with the rest of the UFO mystery is not conclusive. At least not to me.
 
Agitprop said:
Do you honestly think the board of Csicop, for example, believe in what they're doing? Some of them are likely deep occultists, involved in mind control programs of all kinds. They're adepts and they don't want anyone to know what consciousness is and how and at what point it intersects with "other" intelligence. Their explanations are so hideously lame, you can tell they're not meant to convince the serious and thoughtful, they're designed to create a smokescreen to keep the thoughtless in that state, in perpetuity.

Did you see "Eyes Wide Shut" Do you think Kubrick may have known a thing or two?


Hello.

You know, I don't know, really, what to think about CSICOP. Some of the positions they take and the "explanations" they parrot as gospel is more suitably entitled gossip! As we discussed earlier, they already "know" the outcome: it's NOT mysterious, and it's NOT unexplainable. That is their clear bias, compounded by the fact that some of them make their LIVING off of debunking anything they can get their hands on. And every argument they put forth is built on this bias, so naturally, it always arrives at a prosaic answer, even when it stretches the truth.
When you realise that entire livelihoods are based on the assumption that, with a little brainpower, anything paranormal can be explained away, and that the cost of being wrong JUST ONCE could endanger their livelihood, you begin to appreciate what drives them to make some of the most presumptuously pseudoscientific proclamations that have ever been witnessed.

Some people hold the idea that CSICOP and friends have a certain agenda. This may or may not be true. I couldn't say. Though sometimes the audacity of their tenacity is puzzling.

I have never seen "Eyes Wide Shut". Is it worthy of my time??? ;)
 
Hey Agiprop, and d'youll

yes, i've seen Eyes Wide Shut. i heard that soon after makin it Director 'dies'---co-incidence? he was examining bout the Illumunati wasn't he..???

and as you rightly say, they DO believe in the occult, and in controlling minds, ao as to gain and accumulate mo and mo POWER!!!!!!!!

IF, peple were alloed to bgin understanding cnsciousness and how it relates to matter-energy. tese pople know the radical effect it will have on the hierarchichal structure....their P Y R A M I D.....sooooo, they must use MINDcontrol

hav their 'education' systems drill us over and over that everything is JUST 3dimensional---well, 4th dimensional spacetime coninuum to be more precise

notice how PSY-COP are faacISTIC about ANY....ANY talk, and HINTof 'parapsychological' events----a million smackers they'll give so they say. thats a big BIG wad isn't it?----everyione goes 'ohhhh, surely SOMEone would get that dosh IF thy had had any 'reaaal' experience/evidence...!' such is its conniving propganda. it pervades mainstream consciousness. its intent? ridicule, and...MIND/consciousness control o'course

abot crop circles. there are some amazing designs aren't there. here's some of my specualtions about te phenomenoa........
could be man-made. both ordinary hoaxers--some were found doing it here a while back. but if i remember it was fairly crude
ALSo mand-made as in secret technology---aim? to confuse the issue PsyOps/create a climate whereby the can creat an ultimate 'Enem 'alien ETs' which will be a 'THREAAAT TOOO HUMAAANITY', which they then pretend to fight aginst whilst lockin us all up ifn aserious metal straighjacket

And also, could be actual entities living here already. maybe having been even loneger than us. purpose? to shake us out of materialistic sureities.

as for being able to travel vast distances argument. well, as i keep saying. we do NOT understand consciouness, and how it is totally interlated wit matter-energy. when so, maybe 'vast distances' will not seem the sme t us when they did when we were in an indoctrinated 'just-3D' universe. a philosophy which is materialistic
 
Nice posts, Giambattista. You've got the kind of open minded position I wish I had, but I'm slightly more skeptical. I do think it's a slur of Science to call ETI and/OR UFOs "pseudo science" because the phenomena are objective and characterizable... healing crystals and past lives, on the other hand, are not... they're purely subjective and fantastic, afaics. Cheers
 
Gustav said:
mmmm, battista
i am so not worthy

/awed

Is that ALL you can say!?!? ;)

I was on the march last night. The enemy is fleeing at the sight of my glorious legions.... errr... okay. :p
 
qwerty mob said:
Nice posts, Giambattista. You've got the kind of open minded position I wish I had, but I'm slightly more skeptical. I do think it's a slur of Science to call ETI and/OR UFOs "pseudo science" because the phenomena are objective and characterizable... healing crystals and past lives, on the other hand, are not... they're purely subjective and fantastic, afaics. Cheers
Thank, qwerty. I enjoy typing.

Kerrekt, sir. That particular use of the word pseudoscience IS a slur, one that I resent with a passion. It is generally made by people who are either uninformed, those who don't wish to be informed, and those who have a very strong belief in unbelief. Though they may portray themselves as rational, their dogmatic rhetoric sometimes belies that notion.

And again, you are quite correct, in saying that not everything should be lumped together. The recent thread about the purpose of the pseudoscience forum was almost useless, and I had very little to say. Giovanni Battista talking about ufology is not equal to Qorl talking about ufology.
Something like pyramid power (not THE pyramids, but the geometric shape itself), crystal healing, perhaps homeopathy, and the like, should NOT be thrust into the same box as ufology where all are collectively tossed into the trash.

People that insist on doing so are WRONG. W - R - O - N - G. WRONG! I felt I needed to spell it out.

Ciao
 
Giambattista said:
Light said:
The operative word there is "seems." I'm not quite the stolid, closed-minded individual that I appear at times. Here's the problem: things like this draw out the loonies like flies to sugar. And in turn, that generates distaste (for me and others) of the whole topic. And a great deal of that has to do with the fact that the loonies talk the most and the loudest and pretty well overwhelm those with serious intents and perhaps a bit of real information.


I'm sure you realize that every bit of that cuts both ways, eh? hee hee hee..

And what I meant there is that, just as topics like crop circles draw out the loonies, so it also draws out the ignorant, skeptical comments in equal abundance. However, instead of generating distaste for the whole topic, I simply get ready for battle.

And a great deal of that has to do with the fact that the loonies talk the most and the loudest and pretty well overwhelm those with serious intents and perhaps a bit of real information.

Uh, oh! Seems I've been dominating this thread for the last couple days. Does this mean I'm mentally incompetent? :D

My intentions, though, gentleman, are of the utmost seriousness.
REAL INFORMATION?
I've not yet begun! :p
 
Back
Top