The Death Penalty - Why Not?

It's a miscarriage of justice ....ONLY... after the it becomes known that the victim was innocent. Prior to that, it was the exercise of legal justice. You're sorta' lookin' at things like an armchair quarterback ...or through the asshole end of things!

Baron Max

No Max, because the guy getting the needle knows the truth. It was a miscarriage of justice from the get go. You are looking at this from the point of view of the general public, not the accused.

Imagine yourself facing the needle for something you didn't do, if you can summon the empathy.
 
No Max, because the guy getting the needle knows the truth.

So if one man knows it, then everyone else should know it? ...even if all the evidence in court proved to a jury that he was guilty? Is that to say that the courts should release anyone and everyone who proclaims his innocence?

Imagine yourself facing the needle for something you didn't do, if you can summon the empathy.

A person who bases his philosophies of life from a purely personal perspective is, in a word, fucked up. One must separate himself from such emotional attachment in order to view it without bias.

Baron Max
 
Max: Millions of dollars every year are pumped into road safety.

And yet tens of thousands of innocent people are still killed every year. Money is not the answer, speed is the answer. If society set the top speed of vehicles at, say, 25 mph, there would likely be no deaths of innocent people.

But, see, they don't/won't do that, because the tens of thousands of deaths of innocent people is not worth the resulting delay of the others. Did you read that correctly? Those innocent deaths, tens of thousands, aren't worth your need or desire to get where you're going faster.

Far more money is spent by governments on road safety than on fixing death penalty mistakes.

Of course! It affects more people.

What is your point, again? I think you've forgotten what you're arguing.

Well, James, I've said it about a dozen times, perhaps more! And it was right there on the post that you responded to. Here it is again:

Deaths of innocent people in car wrecks are accidental. Deaths of innocent people in the death penalty cases are accidental.

So why be more interested in the DP accidents than in the auto accidents which take far, far more lives?

Baron Max
 
So, like I've been saying all along ...you're just completely biased and there's no reason for us to even be talking about this issue. So ...why do you keep coming back and making these remarks?

Are you trying to convince me? If so, you're not doing a very good job of it. Especially when I've shown you how to save tens of thousands of innocent lives ....you're not even interested in doing that.

Biased against what? How have you shown me how to save 'tens of thousands of innocent lives' - you have provided no solutions to any problems whatsoever. You even admitted that the DP has no purpose.

Are you sure this is a reply to the quoted post, as you seem to have completely misunderstood what has been said.

The results! Dead innocent people!

Muderers and rapists are not innocent. For what must be the fifth time now, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MISCARRIAGES OF JUSTICE.

But see, once again, you don't care about the car deaths, you only care about those in DP cases. Your bias is so solid and unswerving that we shouldn't even be talking about this issue. It does no good for you, it does no good for me.

Baron Max

Are they mutually exclusive? Am I not allowed to feel compassion and injustice for both? This comparison is an idiotic attempt to cover up the gaping whole in the argument for DP - it has no purpose.
 
Biased against what?

The death penalty ...you're obviously biased against the DP. Are you trying to tell me that you aren't???

How have you shown me how to save 'tens of thousands of innocent lives' - you have provided no solutions to any problems whatsoever.

I've repeated it several times ....reduce the speed limits to something like 25mph, and we can save almost every single auto accident victim in the USA.

Sure, you're going to say, "But, ....but, ....but you can't do that!"
In which case, I'm going to ask "Why not?"
To which you're going make some innane statements about how people need to get somewhere faster than 25mph.
And I'm going to say, "Okay, then you must be willing to accept all of the deaths of innocent people who are killed in auto accidents."
To which you'll reply something like, "But ....but, ...but that's just not the same thing!"
See? I've got all of your silly arguments down pat, huh? :D

You even admitted that the DP has no purpose.

You are mistaken, dear sir.

This comparison is an idiotic attempt to cover up the gaping hole in the argument for DP - it has no purpose.

Nope, the results are the same ...dead innocent people. The DP has a purpose ....it kills convicted, vicious murderers. It rids society of people who would and have done harm to that society.

Baron Max
 
I've repeated it several times ....reduce the speed limits to something like 25mph, and we can save almost every single auto accident victim in the USA.

Sure, you're going to say, "But, ....but, ....but you can't do that!"
In which case, I'm going to ask "Why not?"
To which you're going make some innane statements about how people need to get somewhere faster than 25mph.
And I'm going to say, "Okay, then you must be willing to accept all of the deaths of innocent people who are killed in auto accidents."
To which you'll reply something like, "But ....but, ...but that's just not the same thing!"
See? I've got all of your silly arguments down pat, huh?

I've never seen a more textbook example of a strawman argument - well done.

So no road accidents happen without the element of speeding?

The death penalty ...you're obviously biased against the DP. Are you trying to tell me that you aren't???

Only as much as you are 'biased' in favour of it. I mean, what a ridiculous and pointless assertion to make.

Nope, the results are the same ...dead innocent people. The DP has a purpose ....it kills convicted, vicious murderers. It rids society of people who would and have done harm to that society.

Baron Max

With one hand you type a counter-argument, with the other you contradict yourself. So the link between the two is innocent death, but the criminals are so guilty the world must be rid of them?
 
I've never seen a more textbook example of a strawman argument - well done.

Thank you! But "strawman" or not, dead innocent people are still the same as dead innocent people. Ain't no gittin' 'round that, is there? Nope ...but you choose "special" dead innocent people over "regular" dead innocent people. Interesting, ain't it?

So no road accidents happen without the element of speeding?

I wouldn't say NO deadly accidents, but compared to high speed accidents, you might as well say 'no' deadly accidents.

Only as much as you are 'biased' in favour of it.

What? Where did you see me say that I was a DP advocate? I might have said something like that on other threads, but not on this one.

So the link between the two is innocent death, but the criminals are so guilty the world must be rid of them?

Yes. The guilty criminals are put to death ...they are NOT innocent. Those judged as guilty in courts, then put to death, then discovered that they were innocent are ...yep, you got it, ....innnocent. But that happens so seldom that it's almost like talking about deadly auto accidents at 25mph ...so few that it's not worth discussing.

Baron Max
 
A death penalty doesn't solve the problem, it ignores it.

The death penalty is NOT designed to "solve" anything ...it's a punishment for doing something so horrible that society doesn't want them to live. And in that regard, it does "solve" that problem for society, doesn't it???

Baron Max
 
I would simply like people to be sure about what they're for or against without bias in their information.
Not presenting any information and attacking only certain positions requesting information shows a bias. Welcome to the bias club. Or is that you only think you should have a bias?
 
Max:

And yet tens of thousands of innocent people are still killed every year. Money is not the answer, speed is the answer. If society set the top speed of vehicles at, say, 25 mph, there would likely be no deaths of innocent people.

But making laws doesn't necessarily change behaviour, Max.

In fact, a high percentage of fatal vehicular accidents involve vehicles travelling faster than the currently-legislated speed limit. Reducing the speed limit won't prevent these kinds of accidents, will it?

But, see, they don't/won't do that, because the tens of thousands of deaths of innocent people is not worth the resulting delay of the others.

If people thought that your suggestion really would save tens of thousands of lives, then speed limits would probably be lowered. But your belief is just flawed.

Deaths of innocent people in car wrecks are accidental. Deaths of innocent people in the death penalty cases are accidental.

You have a strange definition of "accidental". The death penalty is deliberately inflicted on a person. Nobody intends a car accident.

But let's assume you're right, for the sake of argument. Then what follows? I still don't see what you're driving at.

So why be more interested in the DP accidents than in the auto accidents which take far, far more lives?

Who says we should be more interested in the death penalty? This is a straw man, is it not?
 
If people thought that your suggestion really would save tens of thousands of lives, then speed limits would probably be lowered. But your belief is just flawed.

No, he's right. People accept that tens of thousands of people are going to die every year as a direct, forseen consequence of how our transport infrastructure is designed. If we went back to a horse-and-buggy system, tens of thousands of innocent lives would be saved each year. The problem is that everyone would be condemned to a miserable standard of living, and many more innocent lives would probably be lost as a result. Seemingly prosaic things like transport and land-use policies have profound human consequences in the context of an industrialized nation-state (particularly one as massive as the United States), and this renders simple maxims like "loss of innocent life is unacceptable" quaintly irrelevant. Hopefully technology will eventually alleviate some of these hard trade-offs, but in the meantime we're stuck with them.

You have a strange definition of "accidental". The death penalty is deliberately inflicted on a person. Nobody intends a car accident.

Not on an innocent person. Nobody intends to execute people for crimes they did not, in fact commit, just as nobody intends to crash their car. That both outcomes do end up occurring is a side effect of a system designed to produce other benefits (transport in the case of cars, deterrence/punishment/justice in the case of the penal system). Are you intentionally being obtuse here?

But let's assume you're right, for the sake of argument. Then what follows? I still don't see what you're driving at.

Quite obviously he's making the point that, just like the transport system, the death penalty needs to be evaluated by weighing the costs against the benefits. That some number of innocent people will end up getting executed does not, by itself, make the death penalty a bad idea. You have to also answer questions like "how many innocent lives will be saved by the deterrent effect?" You are of course welcome to disagree with any particular assessment of the cost-benefit analysis (and the one presented by Baron is not particularly compelling in either its construction or support), but acting baffled by the obvious fact that any justice system is associated with some loss of innocent lives doesn't add up to a convincing argument.

Perhaps this is one of the deleterious side effects of living in a country where the issue is long settled: you are not exposed to serious debate or opposing views growing up, and so get the idea that no controversy exists, leaving you ill-prepared for encounters with people who have other ideas on the matter.

Also, I very much doubt your earlier assertion that resources are disproportionately put into preventing traffic accidents, but not death penalty accidents. On a per-capita basis (number of auto passengers on the one hand, and number of capitol cases on the other), I'd be very much surprised if the dollars-per-life weren't higher in the case of capitol prosecutions. But, anyway, that would only be an argument for spending more on death penalty cases, not for doing away with them entirely.
 
quadraphonics:

Not on an innocent person. Nobody intends to execute people for crimes they did not, in fact commit, just as nobody intends to crash their car. That both outcomes do end up occurring is a side effect of a system designed to produce other benefits (transport in the case of cars, deterrence/punishment/justice in the case of the penal system). Are you intentionally being obtuse here?

I think Baron Max is being deliberately obtuse, if this is all he is saying.

I don't disagree with him on this point, if this is all he is saying. I thought he was trying to make some point in favour of the death penalty.

My mistake.

Quite obviously he's making the point that, just like the transport system, the death penalty needs to be evaluated by weighing the costs against the benefits.

I agree.

So, now we have that sorted, we can move on from this tangential point to discussing instead the benefits and detriments of the death penalty, I assume.

Let's hope Baron Max is on the same page you and I are on.
 
A person who bases his philosophies of life from a purely personal perspective is, in a word, fucked up. One must separate himself from such emotional attachment in order to view it without bias.

Baron Max

Again Max, you are a liar if you say you are detached from this issue. The truth is you just can't see yourself ever being falsely accused and on death row, so it's a personal point of view from you, too. There is an argument that all opinions are self serving, and there is no detachment nor altruism. You don't accept miscarriages of justice as being part of the price for society, you just don't think you'll ever have to pay. You are as biased as anyone, and vengeful too. You just have a lack of empathy, as do most right wingers.
 
So, now we have that sorted, we can move on from this tangential point to discussing instead the benefits and detriments of the death penalty, I assume.

Why do you see it as "tangential", James? It's about innocent lives. Or is it that only SOME innocent lives are important, all the others are just so much dead meat on the road?

You and others are fighting tooth n' nail to prevent the loss of innocent lives via the death penalty, but would argue to "high-heaven" that innocent deaths in auto accidents are an "acceptable" fact of society. It's about innocent lives, trying to prevent accidental deaths. Why do you view some as "acceptable", yet others not? And, yes, James, death of innocent people in the death penalty IS accidental. That's not tangential, James.

Let's hope Baron Max is on the same page you and I are on.

I'm obviously not on the same page as you, James! I'm trying to save tens of thousands of innocent lives in auto accidents ...yet you seem to be interested in ONLY those accidental deaths in the death penalty. And, yes, James, death of innocent people in the death penalty IS accidental.

Baron Max
 
Again Max, you are a liar if you say you are detached from this issue. The truth is you just can't see yourself ever being falsely accused and on death row, ...

I have a good imagination, but I try not to base my philosophy of life on that one and only perspective. And I think to do so is a major mistake, and a flaw for many, many people.

It's not much different to, say, you being the boss in a large business. When the economy is slow, you might have to lay off several workers. If you hold to the same view as you've noted, then empathy would prevent you from laying off a few workers ......and then soon the entire business fails, so EVERYONE is out of a job. See? You can't and shouldn't base your philosophy of life from a personal point of view.

Baron Max
 
I have a good imagination, but I try not to base my philosophy of life on that one and only perspective. And I think to do so is a major mistake, and a flaw for many, many people.

It's not much different to, say, you being the boss in a large business. When the economy is slow, you might have to lay off several workers. If you hold to the same view as you've noted, then empathy would prevent you from laying off a few workers ......and then soon the entire business fails, so EVERYONE is out of a job. See? You can't and shouldn't base your philosophy of life from a personal point of view.

Baron Max

Yet another example of you not being able to stick to the topic Max.

You say it's not a personal view, but it is, and I have detailed them already.
 
Yet another example of you not being able to stick to the topic Max.

The topic is trying to lessen the accidental deaths of innocent people in the country. What could be more clear?

Many of you ignore or accept tens of thousands of deaths of innocent people by trying to focus on only ONE instance of such deaths. That's nothing short of totally dishonest and narrow-minded.

Baron Max
 
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