The dangers of In"Doctrine"ation.

[Adstar]

But you are of course wrong! The war in Irag was not started as a Christian Crusade, but by the Devil in the flesh.

The Devil's Spawn

If you believe in the BS that you so believe then the above link as irrefutable evidence that this is true.

American is not a Christian nation; when it's elected leader is believed to be the Devil's spawn.

Godless.

Good to see that you acknowledge that america is not a Christian nation. The fact is there has never been a Christian nation.

As for bush himself i do not believe he is the Anti-christ. I think he is just a fall guy for the anti-christ. If the anti-christ wants to be seen as the returned Messiah he must defeat someone who the world believes is the anti-christ. bush and the USA have been set up by the forces of satan as a necessary sacrifice to further the great deception that is needed to make people accept the anti-christ as Jesus returned. i believe the USA is going to be destroyed in a nuclear inferno for this purpose.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Cris]

But Adstar it is estimated that Bush was re-elected because of the large turnout of his Christian base. I.e. he is there because of Christianity. If the devil is at work then his followers are Christians.

 

[Cris]

Stretched,

I think it is only in the USA that we see some extremist groups trying to discredit evolution. The rest of the world accepted it as fact quite some time ago and even the pope declared it was true.

Should we be worried by these few? Not really sure how many actually believe in creationism - but surely the vast majority either don't care or see them as just foolish and that leaves the gullible who probably aren't worth worrying about.

 

[Cris]

Regarding 6.

In numerology 6 is the number of domesticity and often dullness. It is certanly not the number of a dynamic successful world leader. The frequency of 6 regarding the dubya could perhaps indicate he is a failure as a world leader which is what we see, rather than something more dramatic like an anti-christ.

 

[stretched]

No worries Godless, I understand exactly what the US and Bush is about. I understand that religion is a front for oppression and control. Like a truly omnipotent god could give a shit about how old the earth is. Nevertheless the US government has created an environment where statements as quoted in my first post are made, believed, and then attempted to integrate as part of an education curriculum. It doesn’t matter what lies beyond the front, Satan, Beelzebub or Black Adder, the problem is you have a president who has made statements referring to foreign policy as the will of God. In this instance the Christian god. Then you have preacher men rallying behind the president, squeaking from the pulpit about Holy war. Christian Ayatollah. Christian Jihad. It all sucks.

 

[stretched]

Quote Adstar:
"Chance has nothing to do with it i am either saved or not saved."

* Off course ... you and billions of others.

 

[stretched]

Cris,

I don’t see extremism/fundamentalism as a REAL long term threat, but the fact that its superstitions fester and gain legitimacy in the background, is unhealthy and unsettling. If you look at the American (and European) stage right now, and the curtailments of human rights in the name of anti “terrorism” measures, I see a reversal of enlightenment and religion as a vital tool within the bigger picture. If you do a google search on pro Christian debating and discussion boards, you will find that the bulk of the Christian front is squarely in support of Bush and US foreign policy. Detention without trail. In the US. In the year 2005. That is the reality. That is the worry.

 

[Cris]

Stretched,

Yes Ok but I see Europe moving away from religion with the USA in either stagnation or increasing, but while the Christian right is making a lot of noise I'm not convinced that the normal citizen is buying it. However, you are right it is the few people in power that have the money and who control the lobbyists. Certainly a cause for concern in the USA.

 

[Adstar]

But Adstar it is estimated that Bush was re-elected because of the large turnout of his Christian base. I.e. he is there because of Christianity. If the devil is at work then his followers are Christians.

Well they are very good at deception and most "christians" don't even bother reading the bible. And there is increadable power in telling people what they want to know. Most politicians figured that one out long ago. Many christians have rejected the Words of Jesus anyway. So in rejecting the love of the truth they have opened themselves up for deception. The bible tells us in the end times the people who kill us will think they are doing Gods work.

The whole world is being used and deceived by satan.

1 John 5
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

And has been for quite some time.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[duendy]

John 14
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

i asked yu cause you put down catholicism. Now i most defo am not Catholic nor would choose to be, but it seems to me you are suggesting that te reason they have had a bloody histroy, including their Crusades etc is due to them not following te biblical cripture in te correct way like ..achem, you beliee to do. so i asked you what's you definition of 'God'

ytou see Adstar, haveyu read the Bible. you quote Jesus saying he and the 'Father' are one right. and i assume he didn't dispute the OT, and thier 'Yahweh'. Do you
know what 'Yahweh/God' got up t in his bloodthirsty demands for war from his people?.....so, what do you mean te catholics mistranslated...etc. NO, tey were following teir religion. a bloody bloody religin, and what that damns groups of people. as you are!.........

I am not a Christian, but ther are elements of the superfical tales i quite like, for example how Jesus would chill out wit all the street people--because they weren't HYPOCRTES like the Pharrasees etc. THAT you obviously dont notice, otherwise why damn the marginalized, as you do?

 

[Jenyar]

Yes jenyar, so true. Did the catholic church hold to the teachings of the Messiah Jesus? Did they love their enemies? Or put forward men to twist the teachings of Jesus and declare justifiable war so they could cash in on the ultimate pilgrim franchise called Jerusalem by launched their crusades? Do you hold the teachings of Jesus when you support these man made lies?

I should tell you that I've only been in a Catholic church twice in my life. There were people following Christ, and people only pretending to, just like in any church. Some are carried away by esoteric beliefs, others are able to "discern the things that differ" (Phil. 1:10). Personally, I've been brought up Dutch Reformed, although I don't see any reason to put a label on my faith. God never asked me what I call my relationship with Him - as long as it's with Him and not someone else.

I think you should read up on the crusades. You might as well stop being a Protestant because a Protestant leader invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Or stop being a Christian because Christians were involved. If you associate with Jesus, you will dissociate with anything that sets itself up against God without giving heed to labels or stereotypes.

The national Christianity of the Middle Ages no longer exists, and the dangers of heresy and corruption can no longer limited to an "official" church. God turned the church inside out long ago: when He destroyed the temple.

Let the Words of Jesus declare who His followers are. Let the words of vain proud men declare they follow themselves.

Amen to that. God does not judge us by the signposts at our doors or above our church buildings.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow, as it judges the thoughts and purposes of the heart.​

 

[Jenyar]

"Sincerity can easily become a mask for arrogance,"

Yep, does this mean the Holy Spirit is absent in this instance?

It means He is grieved, and if maintained without repentance, the Spirit can be quenched. Arrogance certainly doesn't come from God, so it's not in the Spirit of God.

"The significant implication is this: one does not gain the truth by joining a church, or a group of people who believe exclusively this or exclusively that, one gains it by repentance."

Here I get a bit stuck. Perhaps "repentance" can be understood as "amends", "acceptance", or "gratitude".

No, repentance means turning away from sin and towards God; it means making a change. In our example, it would mean recognizing the arrogance, consciously and deliberately turning away from it, and living differently - under the guidance of God's Spirit.

It's like a marriage: you haven't really promised to be faithful to someone until you have committed your life to them. Before then, it's just lip-service, conditional love. But even after you've made the commitment, it's possible to convince your wife that you lied, by your actions. If we persist in sin after we've repented, we are being unfaithful to God, exposing our "repentance" as a fraud. God sees our sincerity in the way we treat other people. It's very much a relationship.

Making amends (reconciliation and forgiveness) is of course a significant aspect of repentance, but it mostly comes from God's side. We can't deserve forgiveness. So our response to it should be to show our sincerity and gratitude. If we consider our relationship with God restored, we will act to restore our relationship with other people. "Love must act as fire must burn".

I'm not sure what you mean with "acceptance" though - acceptance of what? We certainly can't accept excuses for sin, for example. Justice would suffer by that. Even the sincerest intention to love, with forgiveness and acceptance and gratitude and all the bells and whistles, means nothing if it isn't combined with a real commitment, and where necessary, change.

 

[Adstar]

I should tell you that I've only been in a Catholic church twice in my life. There were people following Christ, and people only pretending to, just like in any church. Some are carried away by esoteric beliefs, others are able to "discern the things that differ" (Phil. 1:10). Personally, I've been brought up Dutch Reformed, although I don't see any reason to put a label on my faith. God never asked me what I call my relationship with Him - as long as it's with Him and not someone else.

I think you should read up on the crusades. You might as well stop being a Protestant because a Protestant leader invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Or stop being a Christian because Christians were involved. If you associate with Jesus, you will dissociate with anything that sets itself up against God without giving heed to labels or stereotypes.

The national Christianity of the Middle Ages no longer exists, and the dangers of heresy and corruption can no longer limited to an "official" church. God turned the church inside out long ago: when He destroyed the temple.


Amen to that. God does not judge us by the signposts at our doors or above our church buildings.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow, as it judges the thoughts and purposes of the heart.​

Jenyar i have read your statement that the catholic church is the most correct church on earth. I know who you speak for.

I think you should read up on the crusades. You might as well stop being a Protestant because a Protestant leader invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Or stop being a Christian because Christians were involved. If you associate with Jesus, you will dissociate with anything that sets itself up against God without giving heed to labels or stereotypes.

Tell me where i said i was a protestant??? I am not a protestant. I am a Christian.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

i asked yu cause you put down catholicism. Now i most defo am not Catholic nor would choose to be, but it seems to me you are suggesting that te reason they have had a bloody histroy, including their Crusades etc is due to them not following te biblical cripture in te correct way like ..achem, you beliee to do. so i asked you what's you definition of 'God'

ytou see Adstar, haveyu read the Bible. you quote Jesus saying he and the 'Father' are one right. and i assume he didn't dispute the OT, and thier 'Yahweh'. Do you
know what 'Yahweh/God' got up t in his bloodthirsty demands for war from his people?.....so, what do you mean te catholics mistranslated...etc. NO, tey were following teir religion. a bloody bloody religin, and what that damns groups of people. as you are!.........

I am not a Christian, but ther are elements of the superfical tales i quite like, for example how Jesus would chill out wit all the street people--because they weren't HYPOCRTES like the Pharrasees etc. THAT you obviously dont notice, otherwise why damn the marginalized, as you do?

Of course God told the Jews to go out into the land of Canaan to destroy the canaanites. It was Gods will to use the Israelites as an implement of His wrath. And as i have said before. Whenever the Jews did not carry out the commands of God as God gave them they suffered calamity and or defeat.

Jesus who have given the Will of God to us His followers left us with clear commands on no engaging in warfare or combat. He told us that God would avenge us. And He will. My God is the same as the God of The OT The Book of Revelations shows He will bring great wrath and distraction upon the earth at the time of my Messiahs return. So nothings changed only the way in which things are carried out and who carries them out.

The catholics decided to take the wrath of God into their own hands in disobedience to the commands of Jesus. They lost the guidance of the Holy Spirit and became lost in their own vain thinking and dogmas.

I am not a Christian, but ther are elements of the superfical tales i quite like, for example how Jesus would chill out wit all the street people--because they weren't HYPOCRTES like the Pharrasees etc. THAT you obviously dont notice, otherwise why damn the marginalized, as you do?

Where do i damn the marginalized??? show me where? I fully noticed His forgiving love for sinners and His contempt for the proud.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Medicine*Woman]

The whole world is being used and deceived by satan.

1 John 5

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

*************
M*W: I'm curious. How do you know the "whole world is being used and deceived by Satan?" Can you prove this factually? Have you experienced Satan first-hand? Do you fear him? I believed in Satan when I was a christian. I feared him. I couldn't sleep at night for fear he was stalking me. Now I know Satan doesn't exist. Can you prove to the rest of us that Satan does exist? And don't use bible scripture as the bible was not written as fact. Please provide extra-biblical resources for your answers.

 

[stretched]

Adstar,

* Who does the Pope worship?

Jenyar,

Thanks for your thoughtful response (as always), I love the clarity of your posts.

Quote J:
"We can't deserve forgiveness."

* This statement I reject out of hand. I don’t buy into any "born in sin" twaddle. I say this not because of "pride" or whatever else Christians see as resistance to doctrine. I say this because I have seen, many, many times how people who embrace non religious, but "spiritual" ways, and have a honest desire to improve their behaviour, have changed in character and in honesty. Long-term. This term places a condition on the aspect of positive change and I suppose in the term "repentance".

Quote J:
"Even the sincerest intention to love, with forgiveness and acceptance and gratitude and all the bells and whistles, means nothing if it isn't combined with a real commitment, and where necessary, change."

* Acceptance would be the achievement of equilibrium in terms of the ego. Where "my will" becomes transformed into a greater ineffable "universal will". In response to your statement above, are you implying by the word "commitment" the process of being "reborn" as a Christian and committing your life to one Jesus Christ as described in the Bible? Speaking hypothetically, I doubt that an infinitely loving deity (as perceived by Christians) would place silly conditions like "worship me" or acknowledge my "authority" or burn as a prerequisite for successful spiritual or moral growth.

 

[Jenyar]

Jenyar i have read your statement that the catholic church is the most correct church on earth. I know who you speak for.

You must have me confused with someone else. Can you find the reference?

Tell me where i said i was a protestant??? I am not a protestant. I am a Christian.

Protestants are Christians who protested against the Catholic abuses based on scripture. If you're not Catholic, you are either Orthodox, or belong to the protestant tradition (i.e. you inherited their theology).

 

[duendy]

Of course God told the Jews to go out into the land of Canaan to destroy the canaanites. It was Gods will to use the Israelites as an implement of His wrath. And as i have said before. Whenever the Jews did not carry out the commands of God as God gave them they suffered calamity and or defeat.

Jesus who have given the Will of God to us His followers left us with clear commands on no engaging in warfare or combat. He told us that God would avenge us. And He will. My God is the same as the God of The OT The Book of Revelations shows He will bring great wrath and distraction upon the earth at the time of my Messiahs return. So nothings changed only the way in which things are carried out and who carries them out.

The catholics decided to take the wrath of God into their own hands in disobedience to the commands of Jesus. They lost the guidance of the Holy Spirit and became lost in their own vain thinking and dogmas.




Where do i damn the marginalized??? show me where? I fully noticed His forgiving love for sinners and His contempt for the proud.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

errrrrm 'practising homosexuals'...remember? the ones you and your 'God'consign to eternal damanation along with the Illuminati?

Now i had said, that i am not Christian, but did lik some of the tale of Jesus where he is more comfotable with real people, which include the marginalized, rather tan te pious, pompus, hypocritical religionists........Now you aresugesting that Jesus would only chil out wit say a homosexual IF he was a good boy and stopped loving other males--otherwise he goes to eternal damanation? is that it?

 

[Adstar]

Adstar,

* Who does the Pope worship?

Well i don't know. a construct maybe? a blended god of traditions? He is not a follower of the Messiah Jesus thats for sure.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Originally Posted by Adstar
Jenyar i have read your statement that the catholic church is the most correct church on earth. I know who you speak for.

You must have me confused with someone else. Can you find the reference?

Well i am not going to find the actual post because your post count is huge. But remember when we in a discussion and i said i only needed to ask one question to show that you where not a follower of Jesus. Remember i asked if you believed in justifiable war? And of course you followed the catholic line in opposition to the teaching of the Messiah Jesus. A few posts after that you expressed that the catholic church was the most correct church on earth to another poster. My memory is good on this one.

Protestants are Christians who protested against the Catholic abuses based on scripture. If you're not Catholic, you are either Orthodox, or belong to the protestant tradition (i.e. you inherited their theology).

Yes that’s the thinking that most catholics have if your not under the beasts right wing then you must be under it's left wing everyone must conform to one of the state sponsored and servile religions. I do not conform to the rabid anti-Semite rants of martin luther who is no brother of mine. Neither do i conform to the Eastern Orthodoxy, which is just catholicism without the pope.

The only good thing about Protestantism is that in their break away from papal authority they needed to release the Gospel to the general public to justify their rebellion. With the Gospel no longer locked up in monasteries being read only by "approved" interpreters it was freed to the general public so that people could see the gospel truth for themselves.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days