The dangers of In"Doctrine"ation.

[stretched]

Excerpt from a Baptist Board thread pointing out the DANGERS of Evolution theory in regard to Christianity. In the enlightened year 2005, this is a worryingly naive perspective, and deja vu`s the US foreign policy. Could this potentially dangerous endarkened outlook spill over into mainstream politics and decisionmaking? Comments? (Bold type mine)

Topic: Does teaching evolution harm Christianity?

JWI
Member
Member # 12665

posted November 15, 2005 07:32 PM
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Evolution hurts Chrisitianity because it makes people doubt the Bible.

And that is important. Because we are saved through faith.

Look at the evolutionists here. They say they believe the Bible.

You could've fooled me.

You say the creation account should not be taken literally.

Well, then why should we take the Bible as literal when it says,

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Well,?????

All I see is the evolutionists throwing doubt on one scripture after another.

And this is evident today. There is a local show in my area where a pastor goes to college campuses and speaks to students. The students constantly bring evolution up in an attempt to prove the Bible wrong. The very show this week the pastor pulled out a wristwatch to show that design cannot come about through random chance.

But even with this simple example, the students believed evolution. And all thought the Bible was a myth.

The evolutionists do not want freedom of thought. They start their work early. My 3 year old son has many books on dinosaurs. They are full of references to evolution, saying the earth is millions of years old, and explaining how some dinosaurs evolved into birds, etc.....

And I have to always explain that this is not true. That God created the animals as they are and that the earth is not old.

And you see and hear it on all the natural shows as well.

The aim of evolution is not science. The aim of evolution is to make people doubt God.

And it works. The evolutionists here certainly do not believe the creation account in Genesis.
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[spidergoat]

I know I'm preaching to the choir, here, but:

Well, then why should we take the Bible as literal when it says,

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Well,?????

No, they shouldn't take this literally. Jesus is saying here that all revelations of the devine happen in a similar way to his, rather than, say, a magic spell or family inheritence or something.

Even Galileo said if the bible contradicts science, then it's not the bible that's wrong, but our interpretation of the bible that is wrong.

 

[KennyJC]

I don't really understand why all of the commotion is about. Evolution is fact. But why focus on this one thing to disprove the bible? The men that wrote it couldn't have known about evolution. Even before Darwin, common sense should have told us that these are just stories. Even all of the things in the bible which can not be proved wrong (today) only need some common sense to say it's bullshit. The bible is no more the word of God than what I'm typing here.

 

[stretched]

An example of what I fear to be an escalating trend.

"American Christian Fundamentalist Leader Calls For Global War"

If Christian fundamentalists are to be believed, America's invasion of Iraq and the consequent brutal slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians in that country are all part of a grand divine plan that will finally culminate in the 'second coming' of Jesus Christ. Establishing an empire that will extend all over the globe, Christ will rule like a powerful monarch, saving those who believe in him and dispatching non-believers ...

Read on: http://www.countercurrents.org/us-sikand171105.htm

 

[Adstar]

The Empire of Jesus will be established by the power of Jesus upon His return. We (Christians) will not conquer the world and present it to Jesus as a kind of gift upon His return. True Christians do not engage in warfare but await the return of the Messiah Jesus who will destroy the enemies of the truth at the battle of Armageddon and pour out the wrath of God upon those who have persecuted His followers and have hated the truth. Only then will the Kingdom of Spirit become a physical kingdom of The Messiah.

So the " Calls For Global War" that you are reporting does not come from a true Christian


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[KennyJC]

True Christians do not engage in warfare but await the return of the Messiah Jesus who will destroy the enemies of the truth at the battle of Armageddon and pour out the wrath of God upon those who have persecuted His followers and have hated the truth.

But if your religion has it wrong, then you are an enemy of truth. Will you still be destroyed?

 

[Adstar]

But if your religion has it wrong, then you are an enemy of truth. Will you still be destroyed?

If my faith is false than i would be an enemy of truth and yes i would be destroyed. And deservedly so.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[stretched]

You all claim to be "Christians". With all your differing views, who has knowledge of the “truth”? (assuming there is a "truth") What makes Adstar believe he possesses true faith? The sincerity of Adstar and Marlin (LDS), for example, seem equally heartfelt. Both claim the intercession of the Holy Spirit. Both are willing to debate at length to defend their position. Then we have fundamentalist Michael Evans claiming his version of the truth and spewing hatred and division. Can any of you see the problem here? Does the word DIVISION spring to mind?

So this, “If my faith is false than i would be an enemy of truth and yes i would be destroyed. And deservedly so.” … becomes an interesting statement.

 

[Jenyar]

The problem comes in when people see the truth (by revelation, study or insight) and then appropriate (lay claim to) it. This way they try to claim personal authority based on something that exists apart from them. That's when division comes in (and why it's considered a characteristic of cults). When Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life" and "Everyone on the side of truth listens to me", He revealed that everybody who knows Him as knowledge of the truth. A lot of its details are still hidden in Him, but Jesus added: "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free".

Since God reconciled the world with himself through Christ, all truth - natural and spiritual - ultimately converges in Him, and all falsehood separates us from Him.

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.​

Sincerity can easily become a mask for arrogance, because if someone claims to have the final truth hidden inside himself, he is doing so in opposition to Christ. The Bible consistently speaks evil ("unrighteousness") as the opposite of truth (cf. John 3:20-21; 1 Cor. 13:6; 2 Thess. 2:12), and falsehood is just one example of unrighteousness:

Rom. 2:7-8 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.​

So you see that in the Hebrew thinking, truth is of a moral nature - the idea that truth is something concrete that can be owned and kept from someone by authority alone is a remnant of Greek dualism (seen in Hellenic and Gnostic groups, where certain people thought themselves the keepers of some secret or hidden truth, only available to those who joined their ranks).

The significant implication is this: one does not gain the truth by joining a church, or a group of people who believe exclusively this or exclusively that, one gains it by repentance. Just look at Jesus and John's ministries: John baptized people for repentance (Matt. 3:11) - but that did not make them Essenes; Jesus likewise preached repentance and forgiveness of sins (Luke 24:47; Acts 13:38-39) without asking non-Jews to become Jews, as we see with the Samaritans in John 4. Instead, Jesus says: "...true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." Such are the people God calls "Christian".

 

[Adstar]

You all claim to be "Christians". With all your differing views, who has knowledge of the “truth”? (assuming there is a "truth") What makes Adstar believe he possesses true faith? The sincerity of Adstar and Marlin (LDS), for example, seem equally heartfelt..

Who does marlin place his faith in and whom do i place my faith in? Marlin places his faith in joseph smith, janyer places his faith in the traditions of the catholic church ie men, i place my faith in The Messiah Jesus not a man.

Both claim the intercession of the Holy Spirit. Both are willing to debate at length to defend their position. Then we have fundamentalist Michael Evans claiming his version of the truth and spewing hatred and division. Can any of you see the problem here? Does the word DIVISION spring to mind?

Of course there is division what is wrong with division if it is between truth and lies. You better hope that there is a clear division between us. That gives you choices in every answer to the questions being asked. That's if you decide that God exists of course.

1 Corinthians 11
8 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

So this, “If my faith is false than i would be an enemy of truth and yes i would be destroyed. And deservedly so.” … becomes an interesting statement

A deadly serious statement. If janyer marlin and i keep our faiths to the death then i cannot see how all 3 of us could ever enter into eternity with God. If there is a friend of the truth amongst us then there is only one.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[KennyJC]

If my faith is false than i would be an enemy of truth and yes i would be destroyed. And deservedly so.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

That's quite a predicament. Life must be hell knowing you are on a tight rope like that. But I guess you are sure... so good luck with that.

 

[Adstar]

Jesus added: "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free".

Yes jenyar, so true. Did the catholic church hold to the teachings of the Messiah Jesus? Did they love their enemies? Or put forward men to twist the teachings of Jesus and declare justifiable war so they could cash in on the ultimate pilgrim franchise called Jerusalem by launched their crusades? Do you hold the teachings of Jesus when you support these man made lies?

Let the Words of Jesus declare who His followers are. Let the words of vain proud men declare they follow themselves.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

That's quite a predicament. Life must be hell knowing you are on a tight rope like that. But I guess you are sure... so good luck with that.

Life is not hell for me I am at peace and luck has nothing to do with it. i do not toss a coin to decide what i believe in.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[duendy]

Yes jenyar, so true. Did the catholic church hold to the teachings of the Messiah Jesus? Did they love their enemies? Or put forward men to twist the teachings of Jesus and declare justifiable war so they could cash in on the ultimate pilgrim franchise called Jerusalem by launched their crusades? Do you hold the teachings of Jesus when you support these man made lies?

Let the Words of Jesus declare who His followers are. Let the words of vain proud men declare they follow themselves.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

when you say 'God' Adstar, what do you mean?
are you speking of 'Jesus Christ' as 'God' from the New Testament? do you include the 'God' of the Old testament too?

 

[KennyJC]

Life is not hell for me I am at peace and luck has nothing to do with it. i do not toss a coin to decide what i believe in.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I'm not saying you did, but you would have to be REALLY lucky if your faith is spot on concerning whatever caused us to exist. Billions of others have a different faith, but they are just as sure as you are that they are right. They can't all be right, neither can you.

Even if Jesus really said what he said in that quote, despite sounding wise, it could be BS. He was a preacher/magician/showman, not some divine power that myth makes him out to be.

 

[stretched]

Quote Adstar:
"A deadly serious statement. If janyer marlin and i keep our faiths to the death then i cannot see how all 3 of us could ever enter into eternity with God. If there is a friend of the truth amongst us then there is only one."

* In this particular instance your chances of being on target are ONLY 1 in 3. Unless you embrace an universal truth, ie. all roads lead to God. As sure as you are, that is how sure Marlin, Okinrus or Jenyar are. What makes you so special?

 

[stretched]

Quote Jenyar:
"The problem comes in when people see the truth (by revelation, study or insight) and then appropriate (lay claim to) it."

* This is great Jenyar! I relate to that very much.

Quote Jenyar:
"Sincerity can easily become a mask for arrogance,"

* Yep, does this mean the Holy Spirit is absent in this instance?

Quote J:
"So you see that in the Hebrew thinking, truth is of a moral nature - the idea that truth is something concrete that can be owned and kept from someone by authority alone is a remnant of Greek dualism (seen in Hellenic and Gnostic groups, where certain people thought themselves the keepers of some secret or hidden truth, only available to those who joined their ranks)."

* Thanks for that, that is great food for thought.

Quote J:
"The significant implication is this: one does not gain the truth by joining a church, or a group of people who believe exclusively this or exclusively that, one gains it by repentance."

* Here I get a bit stuck. Perhaps "repentance" can be understood as "amends", "acceptance", or "gratitude".

 

[Godless]

If Christian fundamentalists are to be believed, America's invasion of Iraq and the consequent brutal slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians in that country are all part of a grand divine plan that will finally culminate in the 'second coming' of Jesus Christ.

But you are of course wrong! The war in Irag was not started as a Christian Crusade, but by the Devil in the flesh.

The Devil's Spawn

If you believe in the BS that you so believe then the above link as irrefutable evidence that this is true.

American is not a Christian nation; when it's elected leader is believed to be the Devil's spawn.

Godless.

 

[Adstar]

when you say 'God' Adstar, what do you mean?
are you speking of 'Jesus Christ' as 'God' from the New Testament? do you include the 'God' of the Old testament too?

John 14
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Quote Adstar:
"A deadly serious statement. If janyer marlin and i keep our faiths to the death then i cannot see how all 3 of us could ever enter into eternity with God. If there is a friend of the truth amongst us then there is only one."

* In this particular instance your chances of being on target are ONLY 1 in 3.

Chance has nothing to do with it i am either saved or not saved.

Unless you embrace an universal truth, ie. all roads lead to God.

That’s a universal lie.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days