The Crucifixion of Christianity

Yorda said:
Marlin said:
If we don't repent, we are subject to the full consequences of our sins.

Have you heard of people who say that they have "forgiven themselves"? Is it "Jesus" who has forgiven them, even though they're not aware of it? You will probably not agree with me but I think God (or Jesus) is a kind of "higher self" which lives within all things, including humans.

I think that people need to forgive themselves as well as get God's forgiveness, but the two should not be confused. For example, just because I tell myself that I'm forgiven of a particular sin, doesn't mean that God has forgiven it. On the other hand, we are to forgive ourselves of past sins. Moving on and leaving the past behind us is a good thing.

I think God is much more willing to forgive us than we usually imagine. His mercy and love is abundant towards us, His children. He wants us to have healthy self-esteem and the conviction that we are good people, so I think that viewing ourselves as being forgiven is not a bad thing. Whether we are forgiven by God is totally up to God and is between us and God personally. Only He will say whether we are or not ultimately, but I don't think it's bad to forgive ourselves in the meantime, and self-forgiveness is very healthy.
 
ithopal said:

The times you cite "fool" are to approaching a foolish amount.

Soloman had a lot to say about it. This is OT doctrine, it has nothing to do with Paul. Here are some more quotes from the wise old sage. This is just one book in the bible:

The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.

9 Proverbs 10:10 He that winketh with the eye causeth sorrow: but a prating fool shall fall.

10 Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.

11 Proverbs 10:23 It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.

12 Proverbs 11:29 He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart.

13 Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

14 Proverbs 12:16 A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.

15 Proverbs 13:16 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.

16 Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

17 Proverbs 15:5 A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.

18 Proverbs 17:7 Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.

19 Proverbs 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.

20 Proverbs 17:12 Let a bear robbed of her whelps meet a man, rather than a fool in his folly.

21 Proverbs 17:16 Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?

22 Proverbs 17:21 He that begetteth a fool doeth it to his sorrow: and the father of a fool hath no joy.

23 Proverbs 17:24 Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth.

24 Proverbs 17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

25 Proverbs 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.


26 Proverbs 18:6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

27 Proverbs 18:7 A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.

28 Proverbs 19:1 Better is the poor that walketh in his integrity, than he that is perverse in his lips, and is a fool.

29 Proverbs 19:10 Delight is not seemly for a fool; much less for a servant to have rule over princes.

30 Proverbs 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

31 Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

32 Proverbs 24:7 Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.

33 Proverbs 26:1 As snow in summer, and as rain in harvest, so honour is not seemly for a fool.

34 Proverbs 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

35 Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

36 Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

37 Proverbs 26:6 He that sendeth a message by the hand of a fool cutteth off the feet, and drinketh damage.

38 Proverbs 26:8 As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so is he that giveth honour to a fool.

39 Proverbs 26:10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.

40 Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

41 Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

42 Proverbs 27:3 A stone is heavy, and the sand weighty; but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both.

43 Proverbs 27:22 Though thou shouldest bray a fool in a mortar among wheat with a pestle, yet will not his foolishness depart from him.

44 Proverbs 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

45 Proverbs 29:11 A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.

46 Proverbs 29:20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

47 Proverbs 30:22 For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat;


As you can see the bible has a lot to say about fools. This is just the start of it. Would you like to see more?
 
Woody said:
About the 144,000:

Well, you know about this verse in Revelation 7:4:
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The JW's think they are the 144 thousand, though there are now more than 7 million of them (sounds like some JWs got left out by their own count). This verse actually speaks of the blood line of Israel. It doesn't count gentiles.
The 144 000 is a spiritual number (12x12x10x10x10) for people chosen from Israel (anybody would be hard-pressed to get twelve tribes to have exactly 12 000 members each; v.5-8). But you will see they are not the only ones present:
Rev. 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.​

Actually, the original point being made concerned a decline in christianity. The bible says this must happen before the end times begin. May I quote 2nd Thessolonians 2:1-3:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

As you are probably aware, the son of perdition is the beast. Christianity must subside before he can rise to power. The world will finally have the godless leader it is looking for. The bible says he will be an eloquent, charismatic man, and he has the spiritual capability to fool christian leadership. We know what he plans for the jews: total extermination.
Christianity is not a fixed number that can subside. Christians will not have to be reduced to 144,000 at any one time, since the "great multitude" will be there with the 144,000 from Israel.

And according to the Mormon church this apostasy has already happened:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims the restoration of the Gospel and the re-establishment of the Church as of old, in this, the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. Such restoration of re-establishment, with the modern bestowal of the Holy Priesthood, would be unnecessary and indeed impossible had the Church of Christ continued among men with unbroken succession of Priesthood and power since the 'meridian of time.' The restored Church affirms that a general apostasy developed during and after the Apostolic period, and that the primitive Church lost its power, authority, and graces as a divine institution, and degenerated into an earthly organization only... The evidence of the decline and final extinction of the primitive Church among men is found in scriptural record and in secular history (The Great Apostasy, James Talmage).​
Hence, the LDS church is "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (D&C 1:30), and nobody else can have part in the church of the firstborn unless they are baptized into the LDS church, who's high priests are part of the 144,000 (D&C 77:11).

As for God's plans for the Jews:
Romans 11:25-27
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."​
 
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Marlin said:
mis-t-highs, the way I believe is, God possesses two attributes: He is just and He is merciful. Yes, He executes justice on those who will not repent, but He also gives mercy (forgiveness of sins) to all those who will repent and obey Him. You can't say that He is unkind when the fact of the matter is, He provides a way for us to escape Justice, which comes upon us as a result of our sins.
He paid the price for our sins so that we will not have to suffer for them. Thus He is a loving God as well as a just one.
yes agreed it does kill indiscriminately, more often then anything else, there is nothing just in killing or torturing.
the love only comes with conditions, (god says, serve me and I wont kill you, serve me and you wont go to hell, bend down a cower before ME, else feel my WRATH.) according to your wonderful infallible bible.
when you read a book, you should read it from cover to cover, not just the concise edited version.
read the full bible version it's enlightening.
 
woody said:
I ask you the same question I asked Fahrenheight:

I know a little about computer programming and psychology. Someone asked me why somebody would write a computer virus. I didn't know. I thought it over for a while and I still didn't know. I didn't have a clue, so I asked God. In 1997 the God I pray to said (and I quote him directly): "computer virus writers are sociopaths." I asked Him and he answered me. There was no deep medititative thought going on, no rationalization, no analysis. The answer was immediate.

Where did this information come from? Did it come from me talking to myself? I don't think so.
WOW I cant believe you are asking this question. how old are you 52, straight answer yes(it came from you), deeper answer, during the course of you life you may have come across a written article or seen a tv program about or with some content regarding computing hacking viruses psychology sociopaths, unless of course you lived alone, on another planet.

woody said:
Explain this:

I know a man personally that is a necromancer, he located the body of a dead person that nobody else could find including the police. He has a transcript of his conversations with his familiar spirits. They found the dead man using his devination.. How do you explain this? I have an explantion: the spirit realm is for real.
the transcript was written by him, I write stories too,it's a pity he did'nt have a tape recording or video something more substantial.
if he/she found the body well done good for them but it's proberly just coincidence:

law of truly large numbers (coincidences)

"That a particular specified event or coincidence will occur is very unlikely. That some astonishing unspecified events will occur is certain. That is why remarkable coincidences are noted in hindsight, not predicted with foresight."--David G. Myers

The law of truly large numbers says that with a large enough sample many odd coincidences are likely to happen.

For example, you might be in awe of the person who won the lottery twice, thinking that the odds of anyone winning twice are astronomical. The New York Times ran a story about a woman who won the New Jersey lottery twice, calling her chances "1 in 17 trillion." However, statisticians Stephen Samuels and George McCabe of Purdue University calculated the odds of someone winning the lottery twice to be something like1 in 30 for a four month period and better than even odds over a seven year period. Why? Because players don't buy one ticket for each of two lotteries, they buy multiple tickets every week (Diaconis and Mosteller).

Some people find it surprising that there are more than 16 million others on the planet who share their birthday. At a typical football game with 50,000 fans, most fans are likely to share their birthday with about 135 others in attendance. (The notable exception will be those born on February 29. There will only be about 34 fans born on that day.)

You may find it even more astounding that "In a random selection of twenty-three persons there is a 50 percent chance that at least two of them celebrate the same birthdate" (Martin).

On the other hand, you might say that the odds of something happening are a million to one. Such odds might strike you as being so large as to rule out chance or coincidence. However, with over 6 billion people on earth, a million to one shot will occur frequently. Say the odds are a million to one that when a person has a dream of an airplane crash, there is an airplane crash the next day. With 6 billion people having an average of 250 dream themes each per night (Hines, 50), there should be about 1.5 million people a day who have dreams that seem clairvoyant. The number is actually likely to be larger, since we tend to dream about things that legitimately concern or worry us, and the data of dreams is usually vague or ambiguous, allowing a wide range of events to count as fulfilling our dreams.

Carl Jung, like many people who have experienced an uncanny pairing of events, did not think such happenings are mere coincidence. He developed the notion of synchronicity to explain "meaningful coincidences." He described synchronicity as an acausal principle that links events having a similar meaning by their coincidence in time. However, if you think of all the pairs of things that can happen in a person's lifetime and add to that our very versatile ability of finding meaningful connections between things, it then seems likely that most of us will experience many meaningful coincidences. The coincidences are predictable and we are the ones who give them meaning. Given the fact that there are billions of people and the possible number of meaningful coincidences is millions of billions, it is inevitable that many people will experience some very weird and uncanny coincidences every day.

Finally, clusters of coincidences can seem designed or the result of a preordained pattern to someone who is very selective in his thinking, such as Uri Geller. After the anti-American terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001, Geller posted his thoughts on the number 11. He asked everyone to pray for eleven seconds for those in need. Why? He was convinced that there was a cryptic, numerological message in the events that occurred that day. In fact, he admits that he has had a long-term relationship with the number 11. He thinks that 11 "represents a positive connection and a gateway to the mysteries of the universe and beyond." But here is what he had to say about the terrorist attack and how 11 relates to this day of infamy:

I think it's extremely naive of you, to say this you must be a very gullible person thats all I can say.

Geller's Mysterious Number 11

The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11

*September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2+5+4 = 11

*After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year.

*119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11 (reverse the numbers and you have the date) [not true: Iran's country code is 98 (9+8=17), Iraq's is 964 (9+6+4= 19)]

*Twin Towers - standing side by side, looks like
the number 11

*The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11 by
*American Airlines or AA - A=1st letter in alphabet so we have again 11:11

*State of New York - The 11th State added to the Union

*New York City - 11 Letters

*The USS Enterprise is in the gulf during the attack; its ship number is 65N 6+5=11


*Afghanistan - 11 Letters

*The Pentagon - 11 Letters

*Ramzi Yousef - 11 Letters (convicted or orchestrating the attack on the WTC in 1993)

*Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11

*Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11

*The # of story is 110 (2x) 110 - 110 Remember that the zero "0" is not a number, so we have 11:11

*The house where they believed to have lived had # 10001 again don't count the zero.....

Names that have eleven letters
*Air Force One, *George W. Bush, *Bill Clinton, *Saudi Arabia, *ww terrorism, *Colin Powell U.S. Secretary of State

*Remembrance day is November 11....

*November is also the 11th month

*Mohamed Atta, the pilot that crashed into the World Trade Centre.

*Skyscrapers, American Airlines AA = 11

Geller also claimed that "there will be more information coming in" and urged readers to e-mail him with more findings of this kind. Geller also wrote: "I would encourage everyone to send out this message to all your family, friends or business acquaintances and try to put this in the right perspective."

Let me try to put this in the right perspective.

Accumulating more findings like these coincidences between the number 11 and other things should be easy, since there are countless items that can be made to relate in some fashion to the number 11 (or 12, 13, or just about any other number or word). E.g. the country code for Pakistan is 92 (9+2=11), a Boeing 757 holds about 11,000 gallons of fuel and the wingspan is 155 feet (1+5+5=11), Nostradamus and Billy Graham have 11 letters, any word with 8 letters just put 'the' in front of it; any word with 9 letters, just put 'ww' or any two-letter word in front of it, any word with 10 letters, just put 'a' in front of it or add an s to the end of it, etc. It is especially easy to do this since there is no specific guide before we begin our hunt for amazing facts as to what will and what won't count as being relevant. We have a nearly boundless array of items that could count as hits. Unfortunately for Geller and others who are impressed by these hits, there is also an even larger array of items that could count as misses. Geller doesn't see them because he isn't looking for them.

If we start hunting for items that seem relevant but don't fit the pattern, we will soon see that there is nothing special about Geller's list or the number 11. Only by focusing on anything that we can fit to our belief and ignoring everything that doesn't fit (confirmation bias) can we make these coincidences seem meaningful.

Carroll's List of Meaningless Coincidences

* the planes hit a little before and a little after 9 am
* there were 4 flights that crashed with 266 people in them; 2+6+6= 14
* one plane was a 767 (7+6+7 = 20)
* the other a 757 (7+5+7 = 19)
* the 767 has 20,000-gal fuel capacity
* the 757 has a 124-foot wingspan (1+2+4 = 7)
* a 767 has a 156-foot wingspan; 1+5+6 = 12
* one tower was 1,362 feet high; 1+3+6+2 = 12
* the other was 1,368; 1+3+6+8 = 18
* the supports are 39 inches apart; 3+9 = 12
* the buildings were leased for 3.25 billion; 3+2+5 = 10
* the other flights were AA 77 (7+7 = 14) and UA 93 (9+3= 12) and UA 175 (1+7+5= 13)
* flight 11 had 81 passengers (8+1 = 9)
* flight 77 had 58 passengers (8+5 = 13), 4 crew members and 2 pilots (total=64)
* Boston has 6 letters
* Massachusetts has 13 letters
* Pennsylvania has 12 letters
* Washington D.C. has 12 letters
* Los Angeles has 10 letters
* The number of hijackers was 19 (9+1=10)
* Names and words that don't have eleven letters in them: Osama bin Laden, Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi, Satam Al Suqami, Waleed M. Alshehri, Wail Alshehri, Abdulaziz Alomari, Dick Cheney, Laura Bush, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Muslim, Islam, Pentagon, World Trade Center, terrorism, jihad, Taliban, Koran, United States, anti-American, murder, fire, hell, stupid.

What Geller and other numerologists are doing is a game, a game played with numbers and with people's minds. Sometimes it is amusing. Sometimes it is pathetic.
 
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Woody said:
Jenyar,

About the 144,000:



Well, you know about this verse in Revelation 7:4:

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The JW's think they are the 144 thousand, though there are now more than 7 million of them (sounds like some JWs got left out by their own count). This verse actually speaks of the blood line of Israel. It doesn't count gentiles.

I think, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses, the 144,000 are those who will be in heaven, while the rest will spend paradise on earth, or something like that. I'm not entirely sure.
 
You merely prove my point; about failings and perspective - and you don't even realize it.

So Soloman wasn't too wise according to you. You don't even recognize, appreciate, or consider wisdom when you see it.
 
Audible says about wisdom,

well you dont display any do you woody.

With that comment, I consider the source of it.

Bible says:

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

Audible doesn't believe God exists, so Audible comes up short in the smarts department.
 
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to have no fear of the invisible/non-existent, is much much wiser, dont you think?.
otherwise it would be moronic.
and why would you need to fear, a loving god?.
 
mustafhakofi said:
to have no fear of the invisible/non-existent, is much much wiser, dont you think?.
otherwise it would be moronic.
and why would you need to fear, a loving god?.

I think it means that people should fear God because people often do evil things, and when they are evil, God will punish them.
But I think we should fear our own stupidity instead.
 
Yorda said:
I think it means that people should fear God because people often do evil things, and when they are evil, God will punish them.
god made them do evil things, bit unfair to punish them as well. especially as it's an aledgedly loving god.
it would have been more loving to not create them, in the first place.
Yorda said:
But I think we should fear our own stupidity instead.
this is the most sensible thing you ever come out with.
 
audible said:
god made them do evil things, bit unfair to punish them as well. especially as it's an aledgedly loving god.
it would have been more loving to not create them, in the first place.

Right. If there really was a good God, people wouldn't suffer like this. If there is a "God", he is most likely beoynd good and evil.
 
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