The Crucifixion of Christianity

[Itseemstome]

Being new to this sight I don't know if this has come up before. Barbara Theiring, now an ex Professor of Theology at Melbourne University, states that when she carried out a survey of Qumran the distances between the various sights exactly corresponded with those given in the Bible for Jerusalem, even down to there being holes for the crosses! There has always been a small problem in that the distances, when applied to Jerusalem are totally wrong.

This was in a series of books, the most striking, to my mind, of which was 'Jesus of the Apocalypse' which detailed some of Jesus's movements after the crucifixion. It also gave a glossary of the New Testament giving the exact meanings of it all from start to finish. It was a history of Jesus's group of people and it all finished about 1900 years ago.

 

[Woody]

MW said,

M*W: Welcome to sciforums, Marlin. I have one question for you: "If Christianity itself is true and will endure," why is it dying worldwide? Christianity Today magazine has run several articles on this problem, and statistics show that 25% of the world's population are Christian; the other 75% are not, and the numbers are still dropping.

Part of the reason has to do with the way the questions were asked in the polls. In some countries the pollsters assumed everyone had a religion, and if they weren't sure they just counted them as christians. The multiple choice questions didn't allow for atheism. That is what I've read. Numbers don't count anyway. In the end times there will only be 144,000 christians on the earth in this world of billions of people. Naturally the christian population must go down to reach this number.

Humans can easily live without their gallbladders, so aside from any possible infection, Jesus would have made it.

My wife had her gall bladder removed, she is a nurse. She had it performed lapriscopically. Before this procedure came along, gall bladder surgery required rib bones to be severed. It was quite involved, and a very serious operation. In Jesus' day there were no surgeons, but Jesus didn't need one to help Him in His healing ministry anyway.

If the gall bladder ruptures inside the human body it results in death if it is not treated immediately by a surgeon. That is what I've heard anyway. The purpose of bile is to dissolve fatty tissue. The liver has fatty tissue in it. Hence, a ruptured gall bladder dissolves some of the body's vital organs.

Why would a Roman soldier go for the gall bladder anyway? Wouldn't it make more sense to pierce the heart from the left side?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Woody: My wife had her gall bladder removed, she is a nurse. She had it performed lapriscopically. Before this procedure came along, gall bladder surgery required rib bones to be severed. It was quite involved, and a very serious operation. In Jesus' day there were no surgeons, but Jesus didn't need one to help Him in His healing ministry anyway.
*************
M*W: I wasn't as fortunate as your wife. I had my gallbladder removed by incision, although they repaired a 4 degree hiatal hernia and removed my appendix at the same time. I had no rib bones severed. That is not the usual procedure. Jesus's spiritual "surgeon" was Mary Magdalen. She had the use of spikenard and myrrh which act as antibiotics to prevent him from getting an infection.
*************
Woody: If the gall bladder ruptures inside the human body it results in death if it is not treated immediately by a surgeon. That is what I've heard anyway. The purpose of bile is to dissolve fatty tissue. The liver has fatty tissue in it. Hence, a ruptured gall bladder dissolves some of the body's vital organs.
*************
M*W: If the gall bladder ruptures inside the body, there is a serious chance of peritonitis. Bile does help digest fatty tissues and other foods like onions. You are right. The liver manufactures cholesterol, so it does have adipose tissue in it, but a ruptured gall bladder in no way dissolves the bodies vital organs!
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Woody: Why would a Roman soldier go for the gall bladder anyway? Wouldn't it make more sense to pierce the heart from the left side?
*************
M*W: I don't think a Roman soldier would specifically go for the gallbladder. As I think about this, the soldier probably didn't care where he was aiming. I think the soldier was probably trying to determine if the person on the cross was still alive. I would also assume that whomever was on that cross did die, but it wasn't Jesus. As I've said before, Pilate let Bar Abbas go. Bar Abbas means the "son of the Father." In other words, Pilate let Jesus go. The sign on the cross "INRI" was placed there by Pilate to indicate that the person hanging on the cross was the King of the Jews, but again, it wasn't Rabbi Jesus hanging there, it was a substitute. Some scholars say it was Simon the Cyrene. Others say it was Judas Sicarote. I believe the bible indicates that a man named "Barabbas" was on the cross. I strongly believe that Rabbi Jesus did not die on the cross. That was a fictional myth Paul created that was approved by the early church fathers, but that doesn't make it true and factual.

 

[mis-t-highs]

I believe it will endure anyway (at least, LDS Christianity will) because it espouses truths that are universal and relevant to all humankind. It will never be wrong to love each other.

you dont need a religion to do this, it's the religions that are causing the ills in the world.

It will never be wrong to serve God and fellowman.

it is if you believe your god wishes you to kill those that dont believe your version of religion.

Numbers may fluctuate up and down; that doesn't matter. What's true will remain true regardless of how many people believe (or don't believe) in truth.
Christ is the center of the universe and the Creator of all things. His religion will endure because His purposes cannot be thwarted.

and is purpose is to, damn all, who dont follow him.
3 nephi: Jesus says that whoever does not believe in him and is not baptized will be damned to hell. 11:34
3 nephi: When Jesus died, the inhabitants of many great cities died with him. Entire cities were sunk into the ocean, or were burned, or destroyed by earthquakes. 8:8-10, 14
3 nephi:The voice (who finally identifies himself as Jesus Christ) brags about burning to death, drowning, and burying alive all of the inhabitants of 16 large cities. 9:3-15.
and from the nt: He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

nice guy.

 

[Woody]

Marlin,

Hello Marlin. I am also a fundamentalist christian. You seem like a nice guy. I like the avatar.

I didn't say all Christians are free from hypocrisy. I said Christianity itself is true and will endure.

I agree. On this forum you'll mostly hear a lot of criticism about christianity and God. Usually it starts as general statements.

Faith is the thing that makes christianity work, and most of the people on this forum discount it as foolishness, just like the bible said they would do.

On this forum, prayer is called "talking to yourself." When I pray sometimes I need a dictionary to make sure I understand what God is telling me. How do I know I'm not praying to myself? Because God tells me things about myself that I don't want to hear. God isn't here to agree with everything I say and do. God is here to make sure I'm on the right path to Him. Sometimes that requires unpleasant changes on my part or leaving my safety net to take chances.

The majority of the people on this forum either do not want God or they feel they have no choice. The later usually seethe with resentment when you talk about a God that loves people.

Anyway, I thought I'd give you a "heads up" on what goes on here. It's not much of a religion forum.

 

[Jenyar]

Numbers don't count anyway. In the end times there will only be 144,000 christians on the earth in this world of billions of people. Naturally the christian population must go down to reach this number.

This is the Jehova's Witness view, but I see you describe yourself as fundamentalist. I believe Marlin is LDS (Mormon), and they hold similar fundamentalist views: exclusivism, elitism and literalism. If there wasn't already a church called "Christian Science", this is what I'd call it. It's a kind of intellectual "might makes right".

I'm not saying this to be unreasonably critical, but I think you have to recognize where your beliefs stand in relation to those around you. No man is an island.

 

[mis-t-highs]

I agree. On this forum you'll mostly hear a lot of criticism about christianity and God. Usually it starts as general statements.

Faith is the thing that makes christianity work, and most of the people on this forum discount it as foolishness, just like the bible said they would do.

yes the bible is full of wisdom, but unfortunately too much evil.
you can read about faith here. http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40015

On this forum, prayer is called "talking to yourself."

what else is it then, Actor Peter O'toole, when ask about his religion said I prayed for 20 years then I realised I was talking to myself, I am god.
99% of atheist come from a religious background.

The majority of the people on this forum either do not want God

you cant want or have, that which does not exist.

or they feel they have no choice.

we have much more choice as we live in the real world (reality, sense, logic, and intellect, as opposed to, fantasy dreams delusions hallucinations visions, lunacy.)no competition there.

The latter usually seethe with resentment when you talk about a God that loves people.

no this is anger, because how could a seemingly intelligent person, believe in such a evil thing and say it's loving.(fear of gods wrath etc)

 

[Woody]

mis-t-high,

what else is it then, Actor Peter O'toole, when ask about his religion said I prayed for 20 years then I realised I was talking to myself, I am god.

You are relying on a secondhand account. What did Peter O'toole find out when he prayed to himself? Did he find out everything was just hunkydory? Did he find out he didn't need to change a thing?

My account is firsthand, as I said before:

When I pray sometimes I need a dictionary to make sure I understand what God is telling me. How do I know I'm not praying to myself? Because God tells me things about myself that I don't want to hear. God isn't here to agree with everything I say and do.

You think I pray to myself. Why then do I get a second opinion? Why then do I disagree with myself? Why I'm I told that I did something wrong when I thought it was ok, and I disagree and argue about it with "myself"? Why do I need a dictionary to understand what God tells me sometimes?

example:

I asked God why people write computer viruses. I don't understand it in my own human wisdom. God tells me that the virus writers are typically sociopaths. I'm not entirely sure about the definition so I go look it up:

sociopath definition:

One who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior. A person who is completely unable or unwilling to behave in a way that is acceptable to society:

Antisocial personality disorder (APD) is a personality disorder which is often characterised by antisocial and impulsive behaviour. APD is generally considered to be the same as, or similar to, the disorder that was previously known as psychopathic or sociopathic personality disorder. Approximately 3% of men and 1% of women have some form of antisocial personality disorder (source: DSM-IV).

Although criminal activity is not a necessary requirement for the diagnosis, these individuals often encounter legal difficulties due to their disregard for societal standards and the rights of others. Therefore, many of these individuals can be found in prisons. However, it should be noted that criminal activity does not automatically warrant a diagnosis of APD, nor does a diagnosis of APD imply that a person is a criminal. It is hypothesized that many high achievers exhibit APD characteristics.

Research has shown that individuals with APD are indifferent to the possibility of physical pain or many punishments, and show no indications that they experience fear when so threatened; this may explain their apparent disregard for the consequences of their actions, and their lack of empathy when others are suffering.

The recent, controversial science of sociobiology attempts to explain animal and human behavior and social structures, largely in terms of evolutionarily stable strategies. For example, in one well-known 1995 paper by Linda Mealey, chronic antisocial/criminal behavior is explained as a combination of two such strategies.

Do you want to argue with God on this issue of computer virus writers? God says they are social misfits. Proove He is wrong. Is this just me talking to myself? How do I give myself answers?

 

[fahrenheit 451]

mis-t-high,
You are relying on a secondhand account. What did Peter O'toole find out when he prayed to himself? Did he find out everything was just hunkydory? Did he find out he didn't need to change a thing?

no she's just posting a quote, however I'd like to cut in here, peter otoole must of done as he thought he was god. cant be more exalted then that.
heres a story for you, I was doing a bit of DIY when I cut a piece of wood to short, I started to speak out load "you stupid fool you fancy cutting it wrong. when someone shouted up talikng to yourself, I said at least I'm talking to somebody intelligent.

My account is firsthand, as I said before:
You think I pray to myself. Why then do I get a second opinion? Why then do I disagree with myself? Why I'm I told that I did something wrong when I thought it was ok, and I disagree and argue about it with "myself"? Why do I need a dictionary to understand what God tells me sometimes?

because you answer yourself back, it's you own thoughts you hear, as I did when I cut the wood short, i said in my head the size repeatedly and dont do it again.

I asked God why people write computer viruses. I don't understand it in my own human wisdom. God tells me that the virus writers are typically sociopaths. I'm not entirely sure about the definition so I go look it up:

sociopath definition:

One who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior. A person who is completely unable or unwilling to behave in a way that is acceptable to society:

Antisocial personality disorder (APD) is a personality disorder which is often characterised by antisocial and impulsive behaviour. APD is generally considered to be the same as, or similar to, the disorder that was previously known as psychopathic or sociopathic personality disorder. Approximately 3% of men and 1% of women have some form of antisocial personality disorder (source: DSM-IV).

Although criminal activity is not a necessary requirement for the diagnosis, these individuals often encounter legal difficulties due to their disregard for societal standards and the rights of others. Therefore, many of these individuals can be found in prisons. However, it should be noted that criminal activity does not automatically warrant a diagnosis of APD, nor does a diagnosis of APD imply that a person is a criminal. It is hypothesized that many high achievers exhibit APD characteristics.

Research has shown that individuals with APD are indifferent to the possibility of physical pain or many punishments, and show no indications that they experience fear when so threatened; this may explain their apparent disregard for the consequences of their actions, and their lack of empathy when others are suffering.

The recent, controversial science of sociobiology attempts to explain animal and human behavior and social structures, largely in terms of evolutionarily stable strategies. For example, in one well-known 1995 paper by Linda Mealey, chronic antisocial/criminal behavior is explained as a combination of two such strategies.

Do you want to argue with God on this issue of computer virus writers? God says they are social misfits. Proove He is wrong. Is this just me talking to myself? How do I give myself answers?

this is rather odd that you should suddenly go on about sociopaths/psychopaths, I said this "I to have said you should see a doctor, you have delusions of grandeur, you have a god complex, this could be psychopathic." to someone else last year, because he would answer the question put, kept preaching, and believed he was highly intelligent, and gods gift.
I sorry you seem to be displaying the very same problems.

Glibness/Superficial Charm
Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. Captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence, they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally.



Manipulative and Cunning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims.



Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Craves adulation and attendance. Must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the "spokesman for God," "enlightened," "leader of humankind," etc. Creates an us-versus-them mentality



Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests.

this is a just an excerpt, you are displaying some traits.

http://www.home.datawest.net/esn-re...rtcls/socio.htm
sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

[Woody]

Fahrenheight 451,

Here is a quotation from PC World, written in 2001:

It takes a special kind of sociopath to write and distribute a computer virus. You have to be mean enough to want to hurt innocent victims, self-delusional enough to presume you'll leave a mark on the world, and sinister enough to use your programming skills for evil, even though you could do so much good with them.

I know a little about computer programming and psychology. Someone asked me why somebody would write a computer virus. I didn't know. I thought it over for a while and I still didn't know. I didn't have a clue, so I asked God. In 1997 the God I pray to said (and I quote him directly): "computer virus writers are sociopaths." I asked Him and he answered me. There was no deep medititative thought going on, no rationalization, no analysis. The answer was immediate.

Where did this information come from? Did it come from me talking to myself? I don't think so.

Fahrenheight, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think you are in denial.

 

[the preacher]

woody:
after reading your last post, fahrenheit is right, you are displaying the symptoms.
IE Glibness/Superficial Charm, Manipulative and Cunning, Grandiose Sense of Self.
you proved it for him.

 

[Marlin]

Hi Woody, nice to meetcha.

mis-t-highs, the way I believe is, God possesses two attributes: He is just and He is merciful. Yes, He executes justice on those who will not repent, but He also gives mercy (forgiveness of sins) to all those who will repent and obey Him. You can't say that He is unkind when the fact of the matter is, He provides a way for us to escape Justice, which comes upon us as a result of our sins.

He paid the price for our sins so that we will not have to suffer for them. Thus He is a loving God as well as a just one.

 

[Woody]

preacher,

You say I am glib, meaning I do not think about what I say. I ask you the same question I asked Fahrenheight:

I know a little about computer programming and psychology. Someone asked me why somebody would write a computer virus. I didn't know. I thought it over for a while and I still didn't know. I didn't have a clue, so I asked God. In 1997 the God I pray to said (and I quote him directly): "computer virus writers are sociopaths." I asked Him and he answered me. There was no deep medititative thought going on, no rationalization, no analysis. The answer was immediate.

Where did this information come from? Did it come from me talking to myself? I don't think so.

Where did the information come from? I claim it came from the Lord that I pray to (and I bet it is true information, I already trust the Lord that it is right). What is your explananation? Do you even have an explanation Joe-physical-explanation-for-everything-guy? By the way, I do not hear audible voices when I pray. I hear a voice other than my own inside my mind. Sometimes I am just praying to myself, and I have to be careful about that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explain this:

I know a man personally that is a necromancer, he located the body of a dead person that nobody else could find including the police. He has a transcript of his conversations with his familiar spirits. They found the dead man using his devination.. How do you explain this? I have an explantion: the spirit realm is for real.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

You say I am displaying the symptoms of a sociopath, how? Who am I trying to harm, how am I being unsocial? When I helped elderly people in the rest home for 9 years as a volunteer -- how was I being a sociopath? How about 2 billion other christians that pray to God? Are they all sociopaths too? Just because you don't understand our God, you think we are crazy -- I think that is rather narrowminded of you, and quite unreasonable.

I know what it is like to be without God, but you don't know what it is like to be with God. You are the one with the missing information.

 

[Yorda]

He paid the price for our sins so that we will not have to suffer for them. Thus He is a loving God as well as a just one.

But why did we have to suffer in the first place? Why did God create us that way? I would much rather be a nothing if all this suffering is what comes from the gift of free will. Remember, we are not really bad, it was the snake which tempted Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge. God has given us a sinful body, we're constantly controlled by our thoughts and emotions. There is nothing we can do but to sin, because that's the way we're created.

 

[Woody]

Hello Marlin,

You seem like a kind and sincere person. Don't let the atheistic bullies get you down. We've met Jesus and they have not. They are just strangers that bad mouth our best friend. They don't even know Him. They don't even want to know Him.

Don't take it personal though. Anyone that believes on christ will be criticized, and this should be expected. As my wife says, "athiests weren't brought up right." I must say I agree. They tend to be rude, conceited, and bellicose.

The Lord had them figured out in Proverbs 26:12:

Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

 

[Woody]

Jenyar,

About the 144,000:

This is the Jehova's Witness view, but I see you describe yourself as fundamentalist.

Well, you know about this verse in Revelation 7:4:

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The JW's think they are the 144 thousand, though there are now more than 7 million of them (sounds like some JWs got left out by their own count). This verse actually speaks of the blood line of Israel. It doesn't count gentiles.

Actually, the original point being made concerned a decline in christianity. The bible says this must happen before the end times begin. May I quote 2nd Thessolonians 2:1-3:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

As you are probably aware, the son of perdition is the beast. Christianity must subside before he can rise to power. The world will finally have the godless leader it is looking for. The bible says he will be an eloquent, charismatic man, and he has the spiritual capability to fool christian leadership. We know what he plans for the jews: total extermination.

 

[Marlin]

But why did we have to suffer in the first place? Why did God create us that way? I would much rather be a nothing if all this suffering is what comes from the gift of free will. Remember, we are not really bad, it was the snake which tempted Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge. God has given us a sinful body, we're constantly controlled by our thoughts and emotions. There is nothing we can do but to sin, because that's the way we're created.

Sin is going against the laws of God, which laws are basic consequences of our actions. The law is a natural one--if I break it, I incur the consequence of it automatically.

Jesus suffered for my sins (and yours) because the only way the law will let us out of our suffering is for a Sinless person to pay for it. Jesus was the only Sinless person to ever live, so He is the only one who can ransom us from sin. Sin is cause-effect. It's just the way things are. God didn't invent sin, nor are His laws without reason. God does all He can for us to escape the consenquences of our sins. That is the whole reason Jesus came to Earth, to rescue us all on the condition that we obey Him. If we repent, He is faithful to forgive and stand between us and Justice. If we don't repent, we are subject to the full consequences of our sins.

 

[Marlin]

You speak of (“the way you believe”) sins, justice, and qualities merely assigned and assumed then to be true; simply because they are thought of "in your mind" and reinforced by (accepted) interpretations of spirituality based on a certain fundamentalist Christian worldview. . . but . . .

I am not a fundamentalist. Justice is the natural consequence of sin. I didn't make it up. God Himself didn't make it up.

. . . there is no proof that the bible is infallible; only the fundamentalist statement “the bible is infallible” Which is easy to prove a false statement in many ways - and this is even more false “current and past human interpretation of the bible is infallible.” Especially considering that the entirety of the bible; and all outside doctrine was written by humans.

I never said the Bible was infallible. That is not LDS doctrine. The Bible was written by fallible humans and does contain some errors. I do, however, believe that it is an inspired work, containing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So what sin are we talking about, I can only think . . . that it is NOT about being a basically good person and doing good deeds; because anyone of any faith can do that (Hindu, Buddhist, Jew, Humanist, Deist; Etc.); and even those with no belief system whatsoever can do good deeds and be a basically good person . . .
. . . so what specific sin are you talking about, it must be an assumed sin of faith; that those who don’t practice good deeds and a good life as you practice faith; are living in sin; even when they aren’t; at this point it is just a matter of your false perception and negative perception of others - without a basis; without a reason; merely a dogmatic opine; pre-existing interpretation of faith; presented to you (basically it’s a Paulist-type faith & doctrine; not of god; but of humans; spefically Saul-the-Paul; and trust in belief in Saul (not Jesus); that his opine is more than human).

I don't believe that people who are not of my religion cannot be good, or are necessarily sinners just because they don't believe everything I do. Good people are accepted by God, even if they don't have the full truth (and mind you, I don't say that I have the full truth either--no one does as a mortal, AFAIK). Sin is going against what you know is right. If there is no law, there is no punishment. Thus, for me to go against what I know is right is a sin, but for someone who doesn't have the laws that I have, to go against them is not necessarily a sin. God recognizes and judges how sincere and moral each of us are, not on what others believe, but on what we believe and the way we act based on those beliefs.

 

[Marlin]

Hello Marlin,

You seem like a kind and sincere person. Don't let the atheistic bullies get you down. We've met Jesus and they have not. They are just strangers that bad mouth our best friend. They don't even know Him. They don't even want to know Him.

Hi Woody, well, I'm used to people not accepting my beliefs. I can handle it; it's par for the course. It doesn't keep me up nights, LOL. Thanks for the welcome, BTW. You seem like a very good person yourself.

 

[Yorda]

If we don't repent, we are subject to the full consequences of our sins.

Have you heard of people who say that they have "forgiven themselves"? Is it "Jesus" who has forgiven them, even though they're not aware of it? You will probably not agree with me but I think God (or Jesus) is a kind of "higher self" which lives within all things, including humans.