The fiery pit is a metaphor. And God doesn't send people to hell, they choose it.
The Concept of Hell
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The fiery pit is a metaphor. And God doesn't send people to hell, they choose it.
Hell Is Where God Isn't
Yeeaaahh, yeaaaah the whole firy pit and sh*t - well that's just imagery from a culture of the past. Remember the Bible has historical and cultural contexts, so hell may be different things to different people as time progresses. One thing that will never change is that where hell is, God isn't. Atheists will probably rejoice in that fact. No more God! You know?
Arguably you can say that our society today has some balance between the Will of God, and man's will. So in hell, you just take all God's Will away, and man's will remains for him to do whatever he wants with, except, I guess, go back to God - too late by that time, probably. We can't know what the God-less place'll be like until God is completely removed from all existence around us - I for one will stick to the God side of that uncertainty.
Hey dude/tte consider it this way: if you don't believe in God, then in the afterlife, you will be in a place where God is not. The place where there is a complete absence of God, is the place called hell. So don't beat yourself up about it too much, since you don't believe in God and presumably want nothing to do with God, then well... You'll end up somewhere God isn't. :shrug:
Yeeaaahh, yeaaaah the whole firy pit and sh*t - well that's just imagery from a culture of the past. Remember the Bible has historical and cultural contexts, so hell may be different things to different people as time progresses. One thing that will never change is that where hell is, God isn't. Atheists will probably rejoice in that fact. No more God! You know?
Arguably you can say that our society today has some balance between the Will of God, and man's will. So in hell, you just take all God's Will away, and man's will remains for him to do whatever he wants with, except, I guess, go back to God - too late by that time, probably. We can't know what the God-less place'll be like until God is completely removed from all existence around us - I for one will stick to the God side of that uncertainty.
Nicely stated MarcAC.
Robert Bellah's "Habits of the Heart" peaks about a modern culture who has no problem with a loving God who supports us no matter how we live, but has a major problem with a judgmental God. Many have a problem with "a loving God that would allow hell". Modern people think that God gives us time, but if we haven't made the right choices, he says "Too late! You've had your chance!" and casts your poor soul to hell as punishment. This thought is quite laughable IMO.
Christians believe that we were originally created to flourish in God's presence. Sin separates us from the presence of God. If were were to lose His presence totally, that would be hell. And that's what I meant when I said that people choose hell... spiritual eternity without God, forever (I'm in the camp that the "eternal fires" are metaphorical).
Basically, hell is simply one's freely chosen identity from God on a trajectory into infinity. If God is love, then Heaven is a wonderful place in his presence.
On the flip side, those in hell are miserable; they would rather have their "freedom" from God rather than their salvation. Their delusion is that if they glorified God, they would somehow lose power and freedom, but ironically, their choice has ruined their own potential for greatness. I know that C.S. Lewis is shunned around here, but I think what he wrote applies to this thread (and is probably better than my babble):
"There are only two kinds of people - those who say "Thy will be done" to God or those to whom God in the end says "Thy will be done"; All that are in Hell choose it. Without that self-choice it wouldn't be Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it".
Robert Bellah's "Habits of the Heart" peaks about a modern culture who has no problem with a loving God who supports us no matter how we live, but has a major problem with a judgmental God. Many have a problem with "a loving God that would allow hell". Modern people think that God gives us time, but if we haven't made the right choices, he says "Too late! You've had your chance!" and casts your poor soul to hell as punishment. This thought is quite laughable IMO.
Christians believe that we were originally created to flourish in God's presence. Sin separates us from the presence of God. If were were to lose His presence totally, that would be hell. And that's what I meant when I said that people choose hell... spiritual eternity without God, forever (I'm in the camp that the "eternal fires" are metaphorical).
Basically, hell is simply one's freely chosen identity from God on a trajectory into infinity. If God is love, then Heaven is a wonderful place in his presence.
On the flip side, those in hell are miserable; they would rather have their "freedom" from God rather than their salvation. Their delusion is that if they glorified God, they would somehow lose power and freedom, but ironically, their choice has ruined their own potential for greatness. I know that C.S. Lewis is shunned around here, but I think what he wrote applies to this thread (and is probably better than my babble):
"There are only two kinds of people - those who say "Thy will be done" to God or those to whom God in the end says "Thy will be done"; All that are in Hell choose it. Without that self-choice it wouldn't be Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it".
Very poorly argued. If one doesn't believe in your god, it doesn't imply that he/she will not share the afterlife with a god.
This assumes that you've chosen the correct god and that, if a god exists (one that hasn't revealed itself to humanity), it wouldn't prefer someone that is willing to not believe in a false god (your own).
Moreover, if there actually is no god, then there is no afterlife. Indeed, there's no good reason to believe that an afterlife exists. It is, however, part of the mythology of various religious cults, many of them conflicting in their dogma and superstition.
The real question is: if there exists an afterlife, how do you know it's populated and maintained by your god and not someone else's?
Mod Note: Please keep posts on topic, with discussion content, and without proselytization.
You yourself have just made an assumption, that God does not exist.
Regardless, all God does in the end is give people what they want, including freedom from himself. What could be more fair than that?
No matter what spin you put on it, you're talking about an allpowerful being having people suffer horribly for eternity.
Actually, my argument was within the context of this thread i.e - Christianity and Hell? You're a moderator - moderators should have a very good grasp of context, yet your argument steps neatly out of context, doesn't it?
And even if there is a god, there may not be an afterlife either. And there may even be no god, and there still may be an afterlife. Let's keep it within context - Christianity. We all have our opinions on what is a good reason, and what isn't, wouldn't you agree?
The real issue is about hell within the context of Christianity, which is what this thread is about. So let's keep it within context and, if you want to speak of other gods, then, start another thread.
I made no assumption at all (except, perhaps one of the reading and comprehension skills of others) in my statement. Go back and read it again and not the qualifying "if" used at the beginning.
Assuming, of course, that your god exists. But we allow for that assumption (as a thought experiment), how are you certain that all your god "does in the end is give people what they want?"
Why keep to the limited context of a very narrow-minded view of the universe. Christianity is but one set of cults that believe in a hell concept. Indeed, it is very likely that this concept is borrowed from earlier mythology of other cults.
For all readers & discussants: the moderator has opened this thread up to all concepts of hell from all cults extant and extinct.
After all, this is a religion subforum of a Science forum, not a Christian sub-forum of a religious forum. Let's give all religious cults fair critique.
I disagree with your position that this is a religion subforum of a Science forum. This website is called Sciforums and there's a neat forum at the top of the home page dedicated to science. This is a religion sub-forum of a philosophy forum of the website, and this thread was (until your 'declaration') a thread focusing on the Concept of Hell in the context of Christianity. I understand you're an atheist but that doesn't qualify you to modify context as you see fit - you exercising your powers as a moderator to modify the context is simply, hilarious and pathetic.
See SubForum Rules, first paragraph.
You're allowed to disagree. The nature of the forum will, however, remain the same. Please do not respond to this post in this thread as it will be considered off-topic and deleted. For further communication, rules questions, or other metadiscussion, use PMs or the Site Feedback forum.
You're allowed to disagree. The nature of the forum will, however, remain the same. Please do not respond to this post in this thread as it will be considered off-topic and deleted. For further communication, rules questions, or other metadiscussion, use PMs or the Site Feedback forum.
Maybe MarcAC ws a little harsh here, but...
To label all religions as "cult" as an underlying tone of bias.
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I'm an anthropologist and an archaeologist. All religions are a cult from my perspective (one that is outside of religion and not biased to any single religion).
cult - n. A particular form or system of religious worship; esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies. -Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. 1989
cult - n. A particular form or system of religious worship; esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies. -Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. 1989
agreed..though the term "cult" by one of its definitions could be deemed accurate, it is a negative term for religious groups. It usually refers to the nutters. ~~~~~~~~~`
Christians are kind of split on hell, some think it a physical fire/burning, while others feel it is more a seperation from God, while still others feel it is a prison of sorts with torture, ect...
I lean toward the seperation from God aspect.
You where already angary.. You even called it a rant. People rant when they are angary. Of course you are and where angary. No point in denying it.
I Believe Jesus.
The words are there, and i exposed your claim to be learned in scripture as false.
What makes you think i want to be credible in the book of a hate filled anti-christ?
True. To a certain extent. If a person is a messenger of God then most of the message they give will not be their own thoughts.
So be it.
Blab, blab, blab. Viterol, viterol, viterol, avoid, dodge and stick your head in the sand. One who is wilfully lost spits and slaps and runs away.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
If there is a god as described/depicted in the Holy Babble (for the moment forgetting that it's too contradictory), I certainly want to be as far from it as possible. Hell would be being near the creep.
Tit for tat.
Obvious, isn't it?
Tit for tat.
Obvious, isn't it?
By the definition he provided, religion perfectly falls under it.
All religions are cults. Yes, I am biased against the practice, fervor & pride of believing things for which there is no evidence.
I think its important to use terminology that is inclusive and broad when it comes to examining religion. Indeed, I find it offensive that members of Christian cults so easily and casually apply the term "cult" to religious groups that differ from their own. The greater the difference, the more likely Christians are to apply the term.
This doesn't apply to all Christians, of course. Nor is it limited to just cults of Christianity -cults of Islam, for instance, are just as likely (if not more so in some cases) to assign the term "cult" to groups that believe in superstitions and supernatural agency different from their own.
By leveling the playing field and apply the term broadly and intentionally, I'm including cults of Christianity, Islam, etc. as religious groups which have superstitions and supernatural beliefs that defy reason and have supernatural agents whom they worship and desire to appeal to.
And, among these superstitions that are, in turn, among these cults, lies superstitious beliefs about "hell." Religious cults use various methods to maintain control and to manipulate their followers. By being able to do this, religious cults are able to sustain increase membership, dictate behavior among adherents, and provide reason for participation in cult rituals. This set of rituals and doctrine/dogma act as a feedback system, pushing cult followers to adhere to dogmatic demands, justifying doctrinal demands, and actualizing or reenacting believed events in cult doctrine (i.e. communion, baptism, being "saved," etc.).
"Hell" is merely one of the many mythical controls that religious cults use to manipulate their followers. Cult leaders allege that failure to speak certain words, participate in certain rituals, or believe certain beliefs, results in an eternity in "hell." And "hell" exists in many different religions and their cults.
For instance, the Islamic koran speaks of "hell" several times:
The adherents of many Hindu cults would consider "hell" as a state of mind.
But, for Christian cults, the notion of "hell" takes on a special tone. In some ways, Christianity is a very successful religion if only because its various cults have figured out some common methods for keeping a spell on their adherents. A spell that instills fear and prevents them from daring to even question, inquire, or speak against cult leaders, cult deities, and even the mythical "holy spirit."
Hell is a big fear motivator.
Jesus repeatedly called hell a place of unquenchable flames (Mark 9:43–48 ) where the very bodies of the wicked will never die (cf. Luke 12:4–5 ). John the apostle described hell as a place of eternal torment. He declared that “the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever” ( Rev. 20:10 ).
Believers within christian cults are ultimately steered by two possible, but mythic, destinies: do right -go to heaven; do wrong -go to hell.
For many christian cults, you need only believe in its main god and you get to go into heaven. For many others, you need also believe in the minor god of Jesus as well as Yahweh to get the heaven reward. But you better not call the third christian god, the holy ghost, an asshole, or you'll never, ever get in -no matter how hard you try. Instead, you get the reserved suite at the lakeside (of fire) address in "hell". For dissing a ghost.
Finally, I like what Robert Ingersoll said of "hell": it includes "all the meanness, all the revenge, all the selfishness, all the cruelty, all the hatred, all the infamy of which the heart of man is capable."
Hell is a mythical place created by man.
This doesn't apply to all Christians, of course. Nor is it limited to just cults of Christianity -cults of Islam, for instance, are just as likely (if not more so in some cases) to assign the term "cult" to groups that believe in superstitions and supernatural agency different from their own.
By leveling the playing field and apply the term broadly and intentionally, I'm including cults of Christianity, Islam, etc. as religious groups which have superstitions and supernatural beliefs that defy reason and have supernatural agents whom they worship and desire to appeal to.
And, among these superstitions that are, in turn, among these cults, lies superstitious beliefs about "hell." Religious cults use various methods to maintain control and to manipulate their followers. By being able to do this, religious cults are able to sustain increase membership, dictate behavior among adherents, and provide reason for participation in cult rituals. This set of rituals and doctrine/dogma act as a feedback system, pushing cult followers to adhere to dogmatic demands, justifying doctrinal demands, and actualizing or reenacting believed events in cult doctrine (i.e. communion, baptism, being "saved," etc.).
"Hell" is merely one of the many mythical controls that religious cults use to manipulate their followers. Cult leaders allege that failure to speak certain words, participate in certain rituals, or believe certain beliefs, results in an eternity in "hell." And "hell" exists in many different religions and their cults.
For instance, the Islamic koran speaks of "hell" several times:
The adherents of many Hindu cults would consider "hell" as a state of mind.
But, for Christian cults, the notion of "hell" takes on a special tone. In some ways, Christianity is a very successful religion if only because its various cults have figured out some common methods for keeping a spell on their adherents. A spell that instills fear and prevents them from daring to even question, inquire, or speak against cult leaders, cult deities, and even the mythical "holy spirit."
Hell is a big fear motivator.
Jesus repeatedly called hell a place of unquenchable flames (Mark 9:43–48 ) where the very bodies of the wicked will never die (cf. Luke 12:4–5 ). John the apostle described hell as a place of eternal torment. He declared that “the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever” ( Rev. 20:10 ).
Believers within christian cults are ultimately steered by two possible, but mythic, destinies: do right -go to heaven; do wrong -go to hell.
For many christian cults, you need only believe in its main god and you get to go into heaven. For many others, you need also believe in the minor god of Jesus as well as Yahweh to get the heaven reward. But you better not call the third christian god, the holy ghost, an asshole, or you'll never, ever get in -no matter how hard you try. Instead, you get the reserved suite at the lakeside (of fire) address in "hell". For dissing a ghost.
Finally, I like what Robert Ingersoll said of "hell": it includes "all the meanness, all the revenge, all the selfishness, all the cruelty, all the hatred, all the infamy of which the heart of man is capable."
Hell is a mythical place created by man.