The Broad Brush? Women and Men; Prejudice and Necessity

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I also think you OWE GeoffP, Balerion, and Trooper a sincere apology. Just an opinion shared by others, which seems to be a popular one.

An apology for what? For being abused for being a rape victim?

I don't go for popular movements. Certainly not popular movements that give people who bend over backwards to apologise and excuse the behaviour of rapists and who place the onus on the victim to not be raped.. movements that exist solely because of who it is they are arguing against.

Now, you are certainly free to demand the apology. I am free to not give it.
 
An apology for what? For being abused for being a rape victim?

I don't go for popular movements. Certainly not popular movements that give people who bend over backwards to apologise and excuse the behaviour of rapists and who place the onus on the victim to not be raped.. movements that exist solely because of who it is they are arguing against.

Now, you are certainly free to demand the apology. I am free to not give it.

I'm not demanding anything. See, you're already starting with me. I clearly stated I also think you owe them an apology. The way I would demand that is to say, "I demand an apology."

See the difference?

...and the reason for the apology? Are you serious? You seriously don't know understand why? Seriously? No, I mean for real????
 
I'm not demanding anything. See, you're already starting with me. I clearly stated I also think you owe them an apology. The way I would demand that is to say, "I demand an apology."

See the difference?

...and the reason for the apology? Are you serious? You seriously don't know understand why? Seriously? No, I mean for real????


No, I will not apologise for their behaviour and the things they have said because of who it is they were arguing against and mostly, because what they said to me in this thread was so offensive, that it turned my stomach.

Their feelings are hurt that their rape is biological and about sex, blaming women for misogyny, making every excuse under the sun for rape, making arguments about how women should simply just prevent their rape by dressing differently, acting differently, hell, one even said that women should read the signs, whatever they may be, and not marry someone who may rape them in the future, was seen as being advocacy for rape? Tough luck. If they didn't want to be accused or labeled as such, they should simply have not argued in a way that was so disgusting that had it not been aimed towards me, they would have been moderated severely. See, I am meant to have a thick skin and meant to let it flow over my back like I was a duck. But I sure as hell will not apologise to them for what they did to me in this thread. Because when it comes down to supporting a repulsive argument simply because of who it is they are arguing against and stating so openly, then they have no right to make any demands.

I hope I have made myself clear enough for you and the rest of the cronies? If you want to keep supporting people who abuse and harass rape victims, then knock yourself out. Just don't expect to be apologised to when you do it. Clear enough?
 
No, I will not apologise for their behaviour and the things they have said because of who it is they were arguing against and mostly, because what they said to me in this thread was so offensive, that it turned my stomach.

I am not asking you to apologize for their behavior, I am asking you to apologize for YOUR behavior.
 
I am not asking you to apologize for their behavior, I am asking you to apologize for YOUR behavior.

And what behaviour would that be?

What? I'm sorry, am I supposed to bow my head and cower when abused and accused of using being a victim of rape to my benefit on this forum? No, really, you think I should apologise for that? Or do you think I should apologise to the one who called me a vulture and then harangued me and went on and on at me because my rapist was not being sent to prison and questioning how I am a lawyer and why didn't I do something about it? Or do you think I should apologise to the dolt who went on and on for weeks declaring that rape is just about sex and how male/male rape, raping children and the elderly was just "inappropriate breeding attempts or hybridization"? Or should I apologise to the rape apologists who went on and on for so long about rape prevention and listing all the ways in which the onus is on the woman to not be raped? Or should I apologise for the one who waxed the lyrical about a mass murderer and his misogyny and blamed women for it?

So which one should I apologise for because I dared to respond to such obscene arguments? No, really, what behaviour do you find more offensive? The above? Or my disgust at the above?

Let me repeat it to you, Motor Daddy, so it sinks into your skull. I will not apologise for their behaviour, nor for my disgust at their behaviour.
 
I am not asking you to apologize for their behavior, I am asking you to apologize for YOUR behavior.

To be fair... her behavior is pretty well warranted. She has been accused of everything from asking to be raped to enjoying being raped to supposedly saying that rape prevention is a bad thing and should be abolished... I don't blame her one bit for being defensive and/or hostile... these kinds of accusations would never be allowed in a face-to-face conversation... but behind the veil of the internet, people feel that they can get away with anything, so they become emboldened to make such blatantly misleading statements, knowing that in the end, there is nothing that can/will be done about it.

*shrugs* Such is the state of the world... a failing in basic human dignity.
 
Let me repeat it to you, Motor Daddy, so it sinks into your skull. I will not apologise for their behaviour, nor for my disgust at their behaviour.

Again, I am not asking you to apologize for their behavior. You don't comprehend stuff, do you?
 
To be fair... her behavior is pretty well warranted. She has been accused of everything from asking to be raped to enjoying being raped to supposedly saying that rape prevention is a bad thing and should be abolished... I don't blame her one bit for being defensive and/or hostile... these kinds of accusations would never be allowed in a face-to-face conversation... but behind the veil of the internet, people feel that they can get away with anything, so they become emboldened to make such blatantly misleading statements, knowing that in the end, there is nothing that can/will be done about it.

*shrugs* Such is the state of the world... a failing in basic human dignity.

Being accused of something is different than accusing someone. When you are accused it is someone else that is doing the accusing. When you accuse it is YOU that is doing the accusing.

I am asking Bells to apologize for the accusing she did. That has nothing to do with her being accused. She doesn't get to behave badly because of what somebody else says to her. She is responsible for her own actions, not GeoffP's actions, or Balerion's actions, or Trooper's actions. Bells is responsible for Bells, and Bells apologizes for Bells. See how that works?

That's why the apology would be worded something like, "I'm sorry, GeoffP, for the labels I labeled you that I know was not who you are, and that I said that out of anger."

The apology would not look like, "I'm sorry you're such an asshole, GeoffP." That's not how apologies work.
 
Being accused of something is different than accusing someone. When you are accused it is someone else that is doing the accusing. When you accuse it is YOU that is doing the accusing.

I am asking Bells to apologize for the accusing she did. That has nothing to do with her being accused. She doesn't get to behave badly because of what somebody else says to her. She is responsible for her own actions, not GeoffP's actions, or Balerion's actions, or Trooper's actions. Bells is responsible for Bells, and Bells apologizes for Bells. See how that works?

That's why the apology would be worded something like, "I'm sorry, GeoffP, for the labels I labeled you that I know was not who you are, and that I said that out of anger."

The apology would not look like, "I'm sorry you're such an asshole, GeoffP." That's not how apologies work.

And you still don't get it.

I am not the one who should be apologising.

As for the labels. They were not said out of anger. When someone goes to such lengths to defend rapists and to attack a rape victim, then by every definition, that person is a rape apologist. Do you see how that works?

Do you comprehend that stuff?:shrug:
 
...and after apologizing, Bells, I would personally like to see you relieve yourself of your Mod duties, because you are not a competent Mod, by any stretch of the imagination.

Same goes for Tiassa!

...and Trippy too!
 
As for the labels. They were not said out of anger. When someone goes to such lengths to defend rapists and to attack a rape victim, then by every definition, that person is a rape apologist. Do you see how that works?

Do you comprehend that stuff?:shrug:

You're just plain full of shit!
 
Mod Hat — No more

Mod Hat — No more

Since apologies are being so vociferously demanded, I have decided to back those calls with the weight of authority.

There are multiple members in this thread who have gone so far as to accuse a rape survivor of exploiting tragedy to push an agenda.

And now there are even calls for that person to apologize to some of those who have.

Very well: All members who have made this accusation have exactly twenty-four hours to apologize for their disgusting conduct.

Without those apologies, consequences will follow. Not checking in today will not be granted as a defense for this failure, as such accusations should never have been posted in the first place.
 
...and after apologizing, Bells, I would personally like to see you relieve yourself of your Mod duties, because you are not a competent Mod, by any stretch of the imagination.

Same goes for Tiassa!
I would suggest you take the axe you obviously wish to grind with the staff, if your record is anything to go by, and take it elsewhere.

You are in absolutely no position or situation to be making any demands from me or any member of staff on this site. I have told you repeatedly now that I would not be apologising to those certain individuals in this thread after how they have behaved. What part of no don't you quite understand that you need to keep pushing?
 
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The bottom line, Geoff, is that if you don't want to be held accountable for the implications of your arguments, then it would behoove you to consider those implications on the front-side instead of just whining about it afterward.

I know this is the Internet, but a quick reality check here -

The bottom line is that, if people such as yourself succeed in denigrating, mocking and diminishing rape prevention, more women will be raped. THAT is the real world implication of your arguments. Are you really sure that's the side you want to be on?

Maybe it is; maybe you consider your agenda so important that the additional rapes are don't-cares for you. But for many women, being raped is definitely not a don't-care - and they may respond somewhat angrily to your screeds.
 
(chortle!)

Billvon said:

I know this is the Internet, but a quick reality check here -

The bottom line is that, if people such as yourself succeed in denigrating, mocking and diminishing rape prevention, more women will be raped. THAT is the real world implication of your arguments. Are you really sure that's the side you want to be on?

You call that a "reality check"?

I'm happy to stand on the side that rejects Infinite Prevention Advice that is designed to address a slender minority of rapes, deployed in lieu of actually discussing more effective address of the rape phenomenon, and in some cases specifically rejects prevention advice that addresses the overwhelming majority of rapes.

I'm comfortable with my position.
 
I know this is the Internet, but a quick reality check here -

The bottom line is that, if people such as yourself succeed in denigrating, mocking and diminishing rape prevention, more women will be raped. THAT is the real world implication of your arguments. Are you really sure that's the side you want to be on?

Maybe it is; maybe you consider your agenda so important that the additional rapes are don't-cares for you. But for many women, being raped is definitely not a don't-care - and they may respond somewhat angrily to your screeds.

A reality check for you:

An interesting paradox has emerged as increasing attention is given to the issue of sexual violence in the U.S. and elsewhere. While this attention has created new avenues for public dialogue, conversations about how to prevent rape are often misguided. Instead of focusing on the issues underlying sexual assault — such as misogyny, gender stereotypes, unhealthy attitudes about consent, and the persistence of rape culture in our society — most of the advice for preventing rape centers on things that women should do to avoid becoming a victim. If we ever hope to actually prevent sexual assault, we need to be honest about the realities of rape. But instead of having an honest conversation, we’ve created a cloud of myth around the issue to protect ourselves from the uncomfortable and disconcerting truths that we should be confronting.

One of the most pervasive myths is that women who are raped must have done something to put themselves at risk. A corollary of this myth is that women can avoid being raped by taking precautions like not wearing short skirts, not walking alone, and not drinking too much. This approach, which places the responsibility for preventing sexual assault on the victim, is a symptom of rape culture. The idea behind these “warnings” is that, if you do get raped, you didn’t do a good enough job of protecting yourself.



It’s encouraging to see such an active dialogue about preventing sexual assault, but sometimes even those with the right intentions end up sending the wrong messages. When women are constantly told that they can prevent being raped by following certain rules, the message is misguided but clear: it’s our responsibility as women to avoid rape, and if we end up becoming a victim it is our own fault for not preventing it.

For sexual assault survivors, this message can be toxic: The seemingly endless advice on how to avoid rape can create a vicious cycle in which survivors run through countless “what if” scenarios, wondering what they did wrong that led to their victimization. This makes the psychological consequences of sexual assault — which are severe enough to begin with — even worse. Moreover, this victim-blaming mentality is also the reason that society as a whole tends to blame rape survivors for not avoiding rape instead of holding perpetrators responsible for raping.

So instead of teaching ‘don’t get raped,’ let’s put the blame where it belongs and teach men not to rape.

http://publichealthwatch.wordpress.com/2014/06/11/dont-get-raped-9-things-women-are-supposed-to-do-to-avoid-being-raped/

Police, education institutions and social service agencies create instructional information that emphasizes date rape and is almost exclusively directed at women. Largely stressing what women should do to avoid rape, lists of "do's and don'ts" reinforce the myth that if women restrict their behaviour they will cease to be targets for rape. Add Rohypnol, add to the list. Now women must not only limit their alcohol intake, they must never leave their glass of cola unattended. They should mix their own drinks, and where they can't it is preferable to watch the bartender, wait staff or date pour.

This all makes women, not men, the active participants in rape. Seeming to "empower" women towards decisions which would protect them, directives to avoid rape place the responsibility for preventing rape on women while letting men off the hook.
And despite years of feminist work to refute rape myths, women-hating informs most public and private discussions about rape. Accordingly, a woman is vigilant to have an explanation for her own behaviour because anyone she tells inevitably questions her. If she also experiences memory loss, no matter the cause, her judgments are considered suspect. Even before the potential of providing the burden of proof in a legal case, she must provide it in the court of public opinion. Proscriptions of proper behaviour for women persist so that judgments can be made about which class of women they are: true victim or deserving participant. Was she merely at the wrong place at the wrong time or did she ask for it?

This continued insistence on maintaining standards that reflect only oppositional possibilities of behaviour refuses to admit the complexities of women's lives and the complexities of rape. It also admits a steadfast refusal to hold men who rape to the same standards as women.


http://www.casac.ca/content/rape-crisis-centre-view-rohypnol

Of course, keeping individuals safe from violence and rape is an admirable goal. But when women are constantly told about the rape prevention strategies that they’re supposed to follow, they’re sent a clear message: It’s their responsibility to avoid becoming a victim, and if they fail at that task, it must be their fault. If you’re a rape victim who keeps an anti-rape checklist in your head, it’s all too easy to assume that there must have been something you should have done differently before your consent was violated. That attitude is exactly what leads society as a whole to blame survivors — instead of placing the blame squarely where it belongs, with the perpetrators of the crime.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/06/10/3447269/guide-prevent-rape/

The poll carried out by the parenting website Mumsnet found that 10 per cent of women had been raped, and 35 per cent sexually assaulted.

Almost of a quarter of victims had been attacked repeatedly, and two-thirds knew the person responsible.

But most of those who had been raped or sexually assaulted (83 per cent) failed to report it to police, and 29 per cent did not even tell friends or family what had happened.

Overall about half said they would be too embarrassed or ashamed of the incident to admit it but two-thirds said they would hesitate because of low conviction rates.

More than half of the 1,609 female respondents to the survey said the legal system, the media and society at large is unsympathetic to rape victims.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9134799/Sexual-assault-survey-80-of-women-dont-report-rape-or-sexual-assault-survey-claims.html

Acquaintance rape victims offer a range of reasons for not reporting the rape to authorities:


  • embarrassment and shame,
  • fear of publicity,
  • fear of reprisal from assailant,
  • fear of social isolation from the assailant's friends,
  • fear that the police will not believe them,
  • fear that the prosecutor will not believe them or will not bring charges,
  • self-blame for drinking or using drugs before the rape, self-blame for being alone with the assailant, perhaps in one's own or the assailant's residence,
  • mistrust of the campus judicial system, and
  • fear that their family will find out.


http://www.popcenter.org/problems/rape/

The actual bottom line is that when you are intent on placing the onus on women to not be raped by applying rape prevention as you have all been, then women who are raped end up feeling as though they have done something wrong and are somehow to blame for what happened to them.

And finally...

A few weeks ago, I wrote a post about Aaron P. Taylor, a blogger who claimed his 15 minutes of Internet fame by penning a manifesto entitled, “Advice 4 Women: How to NOT Get a ‘Deserved Raping.'" The post advised women on behavior they ought to avoid if they'd like to prevent men from wanting to rape them. Helpful, no? And yet, some readers of the blog of Aaron P. Taylor found this advice offensive.

Others came to Taylor's defense. And they're still coming. Earlier this week, a commenter on this blog, calling him or herself "Rational Reader," posted this response to my Taylor post (relive Rational Reader's other comments on this blog here and here and here):

Being able to emotionally detach one’s self from an issue and look at it analytically is such a wonderful ability. Unfortunately, it also seems to be one that the majority of commentators here do not possess, or at least are unwilling to utilize. . . . Saying that Aaron here advocates for, apologizes for, enables, excuses, condones, or blames the victim for rape is *logically* no different than saying a locksmith giving free advice on the best type of locks is an advocate, apologist, enabler, etc. of burglary. The only difference between the two is *emotional* and hence irrelevant.​

I understand that Aaron P. Taylor and his supporters are trying to help women not get raped. Great! But guys: If those same women perceive you to be a condescending rape apologist, they may not be terribly receptive to your advice. Let's look at how you might better communicate your valuable anti-rape tips to the ladies, shall we?

1. Do not advise women on how not to get raped.

2. If you insist, try not to use rapist tactics in your rape advice manual. Let's be real: In giving women advice on avoiding rape, Aaron P. Taylor and Rational Reader aren't attempting to help women. Their goal is to exert a mental power over them in place of a physical one. Taylor wrote his missive after being denied by a woman in a club; Rational Reader pens five-paragraph essays in the comment fields of blogs he disagrees with. Taylor and his supporters don't disturb me because I think they're rapists, or that they support rapists; I don't think those things. They disturb me because they use the very same tactics that rapists use to control women. And that makes me upset because I—like so many other women—know that the most damaging effects of sexual assault are the psychological ones.

I may not know Aaron P. Taylor or Rational Reader, but I've known guys like them. They are smart. You are dumb. They are right. You are wrong. They are rational. You are an emotional. Rapists use these tactics, too, to make you believe that it is your fault. That you should have known better. That you liked it. That you're crazy. That it didn't even happen.

3. Understand the enormity of your task. Giving a woman advice on how to not get raped is not like giving advice on how to best fortify your door from outside intruders. Giving a woman advice on how to not get raped is like saying, "Accidents in the home are a leading cause of death. If I were you, I'd stay out of homes as much as possible." It's like saying, "The majority of murders are committed by someone known to the victim. Have you ever considered severing ties with all other human beings? Move quickly."

In other words, it's not helpful. Women can be raped at any time, for any reason—or for no reason at all. They’re raped by men they’ve known for years and strangers they’ve never spoken to. They’re raped by men they’ve denied sex to, and men with whom they’ve had sex many times before. Telling women how rape can be avoided by not dressing in revealing clothing or not dancing close to a man is not only condescending—it's inadequate to the point of triviality.

4. Educate yourself on rape and its victims. You'd assume that Aaron P. Taylor, Rational Reader, and other rape advisers know a lot about how rapes occur, who the victims are, and how they're reported. Just in case, though, here's some info. One in six women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. It's likely that your mother, sister, daughter, friend, or girlfriend is a victim of rape. In fact, it's likely that many of the very women reading your advice on how not to get raped have already been raped. But these statistics on rape and sexual assault are nothing if not woefully inaccurate, because being assaulted is so embarrassing, so confusing, so damaging, and so shameful, that many women never even talk about it. One reason for the underreporting of rapes is the psychological damage inflicted by the rapist.

So while your goal is merely to assert blog argument dominance, consider that you might also be causing a victim of sexual assault to relive the mental anguish of being violated and then discredited by a man on the subject of her own rape experience. This may render her uninterested in what you have to say. Victims of rape are familiar with having their ideas, experiences, feelings and positions on rape pushed aside or argued away. So when you reduce rape to a game that you must win—a rational argument that seeks to carefully discredit a woman's position on rape—just know that she may have heard those kinds of arguments before. From her rapist.

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2008/11/14/advice-on-how-not-to-advise-women-not-to-get-raped/


Perhaps you should start considering what side you wish to be on.
 
You call that a "reality check"?
Yes. That's what's on the other side of your computer screen.
I'm happy to stand on the side that rejects Infinite Prevention Advice that is designed to address a slender minority of rapes
1) It's not "infinite prevention"; that would be a strawman argument.
2) If you are really proud of only enabling a "slender minority" of women to be raped - well, again, they might not be so happy about your position.
and in some cases specifically rejects prevention advice that addresses the overwhelming majority of rapes.
Nope, I do not. And if you are now saying that rape prevention advice is good - excellent! With an attitude like that, the incidence of rape can be reduced.
 
Perhaps you should start considering what side you wish to be on.
Easy. I am on the side that tries to prevent rape. Despite what you say on here, I have no doubt that in the real world you are on the same side I am.
 
What the what now?

An apology for what? For being abused for being a rape victim?

I hate to break the plan not to have any contact with you, but at no time did I "abuse you for being a rape victim". That is an. Utter. Lie. But that's your modus.

Pathetic.
 
Easy. I am on the side that tries to prevent rape. Despite what you say on here, I have no doubt that in the real world you are on the same side I am.
So you think berating, humiliating, condescending rape prevention advice and keep telling us how it's just common sense, such as 'just don't marry a man who will rape you' prevents rape? You think that is helpful?

See, the type of advice you advocate is part of the reasons why so many women do not report being raped. Because if they somehow failed to adhere to these various rules, which range from walking down the middle of the road to breaking the law and leaving the scene of an accident to don't drink, don't dress a certain way, don't talk to guys, don't go out, and they are raped, then they feel as though they are responsible and they feel guilty and ashamed as a result. And then the doubt sets in.. Such as who will believe them because they were drunk when they were raped? Why would the police believe them because they must have invited it.. What you advocate is further control of women, from what we eat and drink, to what we wear, to when and how we go out and with whom, to how and where we have sex and with whom..

Take a very very good and hard look at this and you might just understand where I am coming from:

This may render her uninterested in what you have to say. Victims of rape are familiar with having their ideas, experiences, feelings and positions on rape pushed aside or argued away. So when you reduce rape to a game that you must win—a rational argument that seeks to carefully discredit a woman's position on rape—just know that she may have heard those kinds of arguments before. From her rapist.

You want to prevent rapes? Then stop placing the onus on women to not be raped and place the onus on rapists to not rape. We don't need you to mansplain how you think women should behave to not be raped.

But when women are constantly told about the rape prevention strategies that they’re supposed to follow, they’re sent a clear message: It’s their responsibility to avoid becoming a victim, and if they fail at that task, it must be their fault. If you’re a rape victim who keeps an anti-rape checklist in your head, it’s all too easy to assume that there must have been something you should have done differently before your consent was violated. That attitude is exactly what leads society as a whole to blame survivors — instead of placing the blame squarely where it belongs, with the perpetrators of the crime.

You may think you are doing good. But your attitude does way more damage in the short and long term.
 
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