The Bible, Literal or Allegorical?

[duendy]

Everything is political aren't you two dim-wits aware of that by now?.

Godless.

it is a patriarchal fallacy that one can keep politics and spirituality separate. You can't. ANd i am not meaning fundamentalist 'spirituality' neither.

And Brutus. what your fave BushCo has done and is doing is completly fukin EVIL! if you dont know that then this explaines your position about other things very well indeed

 

[cole grey]

Godless,

It is made apparent by your statement, "Everything is political..." who the two dim-wits are here. I've already responded to one insane statement by trying to pretend it wasn't said. I will do the same with your statement "everything is political" which, although it won't inspire me to retch, is just as ridiculous.
Please refer to DUENDY's post if you would like to see a statement about politics that has a chance at standing up to even the least bit of scrutiny.

*cole grey is getting a good laugh from having been called "dim-wit"*

 

[Brutus1964]

it is a patriarchal fallacy that one can keep politics and spirituality separate. You can't. ANd i am not meaning fundamentalist 'spirituality' neither.

And Brutus. what your fave BushCo has done and is doing is completly fukin EVIL! if you dont know that then this explaines your position about other things very well indeed

All I have to say to that is Read Isaiah 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

 

[cole grey]

ok, DUENDY, nice open,
it is good that you added, "i am not meaning fundamentalist 'spirituality' neither.", because it leaves me waiting for an explanation that may actually provide some new blood for the political discussions I like to have in the real world (where I'm not afraid that one of my friends would say something like what BRUTUS didn't say).
Hopefully you can explain your point without using examples of mad fundamentalists like President Evil, or it won't be anything I haven't already heard...

 

[cole grey]

ok, BRUTUS good job, that should scare all none of the fundamentalists that stand against President Evil off the thread.
Now you just have to deal with everyone that's still here... what, nobody ran away scared from the bible verse? I guess you will have to use your other weapons.

 

[duendy]

All I have to say to that is Read Isaiah 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

hah! which is PRECISELY what the ones you seem to trust and respect so much are actually doing. They are calling evil good and good evil

they are doing this to you ..transmitting this message via their conniving skills. they way they use speech (chekout "Orwellian Newspeak)...theri manerisms, their SPIN. If you believ they are not honed in such skil, i suggest you go educate yourself about a mr EDWARD BERNAYS---just type it at google. you will see how propaganda operates secretly. he used his Uncle's (Sigmund Freud) psychoanalytical techniques so as to covertly manipulate the 'massess'

what? you think the powers to day haven't expanded on that??

they do it via mainstrea mass media all paid by the very same authorities running the show. so people such as yourself turn on the TV, radio, read nwspapers, etc and you hear what they WANNa you hear! LEARN!

they say good is bad
they say bad is good

 

[duendy]

ok, DUENDY, nice open,
it is good that you added, "i am not meaning fundamentalist 'spirituality' neither.", because it leaves me waiting for an explanation that may actually provide some new blood for the political discussions I like to have in the real world (where I'm not afraid that one of my friends would say something like what BRUTUS didn't say).
Hopefully you can explain your point without using examples of mad fundamentalists like President Evil, or it won't be anything I haven't already heard...

well it takes more than one 'president evil' to make an evil miserable environement with such inequality, violence and injustice. it takes a load of dupes who cant see whats going on too, and vote him in, and even imagine voting for the 'other side' will radically change things--which it wont as they belong to the same club!

what i mean by spirituality, is MEANING. Meaning that has been demonized by patriarchal religion and patriarchal science alike

 

[Yorda]

what free will, your future has been pre-ordained by you god. iI have free will, as I dont have a sky daddy, controling my life.
check this next thread out, and get back to me about your free will.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40065

We "have" free will as long as we don't know our destiny. Life doesn't end after the body dies.
In the eyes of the Lord, everything has already happened and no one is condemned to an Eternal hell.
There is only one God and one Me.

so you think god is flawless.
and check this one , and do the same regarding your gods perfection.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=42283

God didn't Create the universe, it's only a physical reflection of God, like the heat is a reflection of fire.

could you elaborate on this and provide source material, thank you.

I don't know any other source material than me.

and how is this different from humans, when anything dies it decays the exact same way.

Humans identify themselves with the body so they die with it, but animals are not aware of neither body or self.

 

[TheERK]

Humans identify themselves with the body so they die with it, but animals are not aware of neither body or self.

You might be wrong about this. What if some animals do have a sense of self? It's quite possible that certain primates do. If it was found out that they did, however, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't be open minded enough to change your beliefs; you'd simply skew them to fit the facts.

 

[the preacher]

We "have" free will as long as we don't know our destiny.

but you dont as you life is controlled by your god.

Life doesn't end after the body dies.

And how do you know this, when religious people, realise that there is no afterlife, they wont go round killing, because they think there is one they, think it does'nt matter, if someone gets killed.

In the eyes of the Lord, everything has already happened

then you life is pre-ordained (no free will( but I have free will, no non-existent entity for me.))

and no one is condemned to an Eternal hell.

better go back and read your bible again.

There is only one God and one Me.

I agree with the latter part, of that statement.

I don't know any other source material than me.

then dont make claims you cant back up, thank you.

but animals are not aware of neither body or self.

And how do you know this.

 

[cole grey]

DUENDY - "they do it via mainstrea mass media all paid by the very same authorities running the show. so people such as yourself turn on the TV, radio, read nwspapers, etc and you hear what they WANNa you hear! LEARN!
they say good is bad
they say bad is good "

CG-
I couldn't agree with that statement more, and you are right that it comes right out of the 'George Orwell Playbook for Government Leaders'. If you want to say religions do the same thing, I would say it is undeniable that many religions do the same thing. Techniques are passed back and forth between organizations of power to use as they deem necessary, and the results are covered up , or openly praised, as they see fit.

If you want to say religion destroys the meaningfulness of human life and only after that can politics hold sway over humanity's empty lives, I am waiting for something good, because that type of a socialogical theory will need some supporting evidence, evidence that will at least make us think...

 

[cole grey]

BRUTUS,
I am sorry I was snide with you about your post with the bible verse.
What I should have said is that a verse should not be, as you put it, "all I have to say", in your conversation, or you will find that a lot of people couldn't give a crap about what a bible verse says.
There is a link to the radio show website which has an unfair, but funny, charicature of a believer, in the Godmanisdead thread. It attacks the christians who think that the bible is the only source of information a person should access.

It is nice that you care about people (i think), just don't go setting up minefields for yourself to walk on...

 

[Michael]

Oh is that so. So you are suggesting someone's subjective experience can be objectively analyzed by science? Have you not hard of the "hard problem" of science (David Chalmers)...where they are struggling to UNDERSTAND 'subjective' consciousness?....you'd better get hip kid

Maybe you are suggesting someone's subjective experience can be objectively analyzed by science? I posted that the dream phenomena can be studied scientifically – and (are you ready for this) it is.

PS: you'd better get hip kid. . .. .

You seem SO cocksure about this. Very much like your average orthodox scientist actually

Tell me duendy – Talk with the dead lately

Haha...a HUGE fallacy you believe in. If you think science still doesn't harbour superstition, then ...what can i say? LEARN! It is not only superstitious in its doings, it is making everything toxic, and doing great violence to many people.

Try reading what I wrote. I said “Scientific Process” – the Method used by scientists to investigate phenomena. That has absolutely nothing to do with . .. “making everything toxic, and doing great violence to many people.”

Guess what duendy, you may find this surprising but people have been violent toward other people and causing millions of species to go extinct LONG BEFORE the scientific process was used.

Try again.

you should go check what allopathic medicine has done. And i might add, placebos are not unknown to medical science either
In summary. your shit shows a LOt of ignorance. you definately arw arrogant in your scientifically-superior conceit, and thus are blind to its catastrophic failure

Do you even know what allopathy is? There is a different definition in Europe as compared with in America.

Regardless, that has nothing at all to do with my post - unless you're going to rank "Spirit Alien-Anal-Alignment Tuners/Reiki/Aura-Clearing" with Chinese Medicinal herbs.

I think the two may be a bit different - don't you?

Listen mate, you can buy into your belief of whatever BS you’d like. I couldn’t care less. If you want to believe you can talk with the dead – hey that’s fine. You want to interpret your dreams as having some meaning outside of your own personal psychology – go for it. You want to have your aura cleared or attuned it’s your cash. And suckers are parted from it every minute. As a matter of fact – guess what! You can have your Aura cleansed and your tarot cards read . . . RIGHT OVER THE PHONE. Just $10minute to get the psychic powers juiced up

Go for it mate!

Oh maybe you don’t beweeve in dat shtuff . . . . . hypocrite aye mate :bugeye:

 

[Yorda]

You might be wrong about this. What if some animals do have a sense of self? It's quite possible that certain primates do.

If animals knew the self (God), they would do all the things that humans do. Animals will never do anything evil. You could never call an animal evil (a sinner). Animals can't "sin", they're not humans. This doesn't mean that they can't suffer. Animals have physical and mental feelings, but no conscious thoughts (no free will).

If it was found out that they did, however, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't be open minded enough to change your beliefs; you'd simply skew them to fit the facts.

No, it's not true, actually I'm pretty open minded!

 

[Brutus1964]

BRUTUS,
I am sorry I was snide with you about your post with the bible verse.
What I should have said is that a verse should not be, as you put it, "all I have to say", in your conversation, or you will find that a lot of people couldn't give a crap about what a bible verse says.
There is a link to the radio show website which has an unfair, but funny, charicature of a believer, in the Godmanisdead thread. It attacks the christians who think that the bible is the only source of information a person should access.

It is nice that you care about people (i think), just don't go setting up minefields for yourself to walk on...

Cole Grey

You are right. Obviously that isn't all I have to say on the subject. A naked Bible verse means nothing without a context. I should have added more with it. In these days of political correctness good is indeed being called evil and evil is called good. All good originates from God and all evil originates from the Devil. God has pointed the way to good, but we have free will so we must seek for ourselves which way we go. Good is good and evil is evil no matter what is popular or happens to be the prevailing belief of the day. Satan is very good at clouding truth and spinning things around so it is very hard to discern good and evil sometimes. We must seek God's help to find the answers.

 

[Yorda]

but you dont as you life is controlled by your god.

Yeah.

And how do you know this, when religious people, realise that there is no afterlife, they wont go round killing, because they think there is one they, think it does'nt matter, if someone gets killed.

If there really were no afterlife, death would mean even less, it would be a liberation from all suffering (paradise).

then you life is pre-ordained (no free will( but I have free will, no non-existent entity for me.))

That's cool.

better go back and read your bible again.

The "eternal" doesn't mean ETERNAL, just like "thousand years" doesn't have to mean 1000 years, it just means "a long time. Hell feels like an eternity, because in hell there is nothing to compare time with. When we're happy, time goes fast, when we're sad, time goes slow. But in hell, it seems like it has stopped.

 

[cole grey]

BRUTUS,
please note there is still a problem for human reason in your argument.
If the Devil is evil, and God created the devil, then how could a good God create evil?
Or, if the devil wasn't created Evil, how did the devil become evil? By evolving his selfishness and rebellion into hate, and his hate into Evil? So, therefore the devil is the creator of evil. At which point we have to say, "why, God? Why did you let him make that thing called evil, that we humans love so much. It really screwed eveything up." And if we go back to the start of it, where did the selfishness and rebellion come from, unless those things are originally meant by God to be used in a positive way, aren't they evil? And then...
This question is perplexing to me and anything that will point me in the right direction towards the answer to this one would be greatly appreciated. This is why i asked to leave the devil out of it when I first joined your forum.

 

[Brutus1964]

BRUTUS,
please note there is still a problem for human reason in your argument.
If the Devil is evil, and God created the devil, then how could a good God create evil?
Or, if the devil wasn't created Evil, how did the devil become evil? By evolving his selfishness and rebellion into hate, and his hate into Evil? So, therefore the devil is the creator of evil. At which point we have to say, "why, God? Why did you let him make that thing called evil, that we humans love so much. It really screwed eveything up." And if we go back to the start of it, where did the selfishness and rebellion come from, unless those things are originally meant by God to be used in a positive way, aren't they evil? And then...
This question is perplexing to me and anything that will point me in the right direction towards the answer to this one would be greatly appreciated. This is why i asked to leave the devil out of it when I first joined your forum.

God didn't make Satan evil, or anyone else for that matter. He gave us free will and evil is a natural by product of that. Satan originally was one of the high angels who rebelled against God and was cast down to Earth with his followers. They all had their own free will to do so and the consequence followed. We all can choose our way but we are not free to choose the results of that choice.

 

[Godless]

God didn't make Satan evil, or anyone else for that matter. He gave us free will and evil is a natural by product of that. Satan originally was one of the high angels who rebelled against God and was cast down to Earth with his followers. They all had their own free will to do so and the consequence followed. We all can choose our way but we are not free to choose the results of that choice.

And you truly believe this load of crap?.

God is omnipotent by your knowledge, "IT=god" IT is also claimed to be omniscient, so therefore when IT created all the angels IT had to had known that Satan-Lucifer, would be an evil angel or rebel against IT. If IT did not forsee that this would happen, it is a contradiction to omniscient, if IT could not just kill and defeat Satan-Lucifer then IT is also not omnipotent.

Godless.

 

[Brutus1964]

And you truly believe this load of crap?.

God is omnipotent by your knowledge, "IT=god" IT is also claimed to be omniscient, so therefore when IT created all the angels IT had to had known that Satan-Lucifer, would be an evil angel or rebel against IT. If IT did not forsee that this would happen, it is a contradiction to omniscient, if IT could not just kill and defeat Satan-Lucifer then IT is also not omnipotent.

Godless.

Knowing and causing are two different things. I will elaberate when I have more time.