The Age of the Universe

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by JDawg
"The Ancients?" Are you saying that "The Ancients" and Hominids were around at the same time? See, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it sounds like you just said hominids were not a predecessor to modern human.

They could or could not have been. There are theories, but no evidence either way.

No, what it describes is the universe being created in six days. Period. Tell me, what part of calling 6 bajillion years "6 days" is accurate? And how is telling the truth incomprehensible? First of all, we're dealing with God here - the ulitmate incomprehensibility - and you're considering that he's making things easy on those who heard his story? Please!

You know I know that nobody was there to measure the time it took. 6 days was sufficient to explain how God created in the Bible, just like 4, 5, 6, or 7 periods are sufficient for archeologists. As for God being the ultimate incomprehensibility - does that mean He can't make sense? The wiser a man, the easier he can explain complex things to simpler people. How much more for God?

Why shouldn't it? It's supposedly the word of God, so how does it not matter? In an earlier post, you called the actual timeframe of Creation "a matter of preference," but I can't see it. Either you believe you or don't. It says 6 days, so what makes you think he meant anything other than 6 days? Don't call it preference, because if you decide that one of God's words can be taken whichever way you like, then what's to stop you from taking all of his words which ever way you like?

You are trying to force me into an artificial choice. Just erect a fence and force one answer to be two... If Einstein ever said one thing figuratively, must everything else he said afterwards also be interpreted figurately?

Genesis explains in a language things that do not exist in words. What is a day, really? One revolution around the sun? But God called the difference between light and darkness the first "day", and only created the sun on the fourth day. Doesn't that strike you as peculiar? The sun did not determine day and night until the fourth day, God did. There's a lot more to creation than bickerings over definitions.

Maybe when he said "Thou shalt not kill," he was only referring to the people in that region? Who's to say?

Yes, God was talking to his people. Here you see the importance of God having chosen a people - everything He told them would be valid for everyone who ever belonged to Him.

It is obvious that many people don't heed those words. Does their exclusion from God's commandment make them "right", or only "not part of God's people"?

...for weak-minded people. If your family and friends aren't enough hope, or you can't draw guidance from the people around you who know more than you do, then you are flat-out ignorant. Weak, ignorant people.

They are fallible. I could trust them with my life, but they have no power over any of it. God also made "honour your parents" a commandment. Not drawing guidance from them would not only be ignorant, it would be stupid.

I want to know how you, a man/woman living in the year 2003, has any idea whatsoever of the merit of the men who wrote the passages of the Bible! How do you know? How can you have any idea at all of thier intentions? How do you, personally, know that they were honest people?? I want an answer, Jenyar!

If the advice is good, the wisdom was there. Evil men rarely give good advice, and even if they do they admit the value of it. At best it makes them hippocrites, at worst it might give us the opportunity to be better men than they were.

Well, I know many people who are truthful, honest, and rational without the principles of God at any point in their life. And as for you being rational...well...you're not.

Really. Take a close look at their lives. How are their relationships with their parents, their enemies. If they admit the virtue of being truthful and honest, on what points do they disagree with what God wants them to be?

Reason is a two-edged sword. It might make you a better person or a worse one. That's up to how you apply it.

Is that a threat?

Only if you feel threatened. For my part, it's a warning.

 

[Balerion]

They could or could not have been. There are theories, but no evidence either way.

Uhhh, exSQUEEZE me? Dude, why do you think early hominds are considered our ancestors? Because there are no remains of modern human from that period. Hence, we were not around when they were. That is evidence, and how it works, Jenyar. See, this is what I mean! You don't know jack about squat!

You know I know that nobody was there to measure the time it took. 6 days was sufficient to explain how God created in the Bible, just like 4, 5, 6, or 7 periods are sufficient for archeologists.

Sufficient? OK, let me break it down for you: When we say what period something was from, we give an explanation to that period, to give the term weight. If we were just to say "We dated this hip bone to the late thelyomesopoonic era," what meaning does that have? How does that register to anyone? To the layman, a period name requires a date as well. How many years ago was the thelyomesopoonic era? I want to know, damnit!

So to say that God just threw this number out there to give us some understanding is rediculous. He could have just said "It took really long time, dudes, and ya'll better appreciate it," because for him to say "uhhh....six days...yeah, that's the ticket!" if it wasn't six days, then what's the point?

See, what you're trying to do here is try to rationalize your god by limiting his powers, or at least draw them out a bit so they don't seem so rediculous, but it's not working. There is nothing in the Bible that says six days meant anything other than six days, and for you to say that the timeframe was different is, well, blasphemous.

As for God being the ultimate incomprehensibility - does that mean He can't make sense?

...Say what? My point of that was this: God comes down to you and says "Here I am." Now, of all the things you can comprehend; such as chickens, dirt, and your mother-in-law, how are you to accept such a being? This dude comes down from heaven and drops this one on you: "I have always been. There is no beginning." Uhh, talk about comprehension difficulty!

I see a problem with the pattern of this. He is very clear on what he wants; so much so that he printed out a list of his most important rules. Why, praytell, would he not be perfectly clear on how long it took to create the universe? Why, if he so easily and often mentioned "I was never born, I've just always been" to the people (which I'm sure drew a befuddled look or two), did he not just say "I created the universe in 1,912,312,499,475,001 years?"

The wiser a man, the easier he can explain complex things to simpler people. How much more for God?

This guy made people build statues and things for him, and destroyed lives just to prove that he could. Why would he give a shit what you could or couldn't comprehend?

You are trying to force me into an artificial choice.

How so? If you don't believe in this word of God, then why would you believe in any others? It's all or nothing, Jenyar. There is no middle ground. I'm not forcing you into an artificial choise, I'm just forcing you into a choise, period.

If Einstein ever said one thing figuratively, must everything else he said afterwards also be interpreted figurately?

Einsten (or any other person) would say "This is like," or "That is like," But God said "I did it in six days. And here's a little breakdown of what happened on each day..."

And please don't compare the two...Einstien may be the greatest mind of all time, and God said that there was day and night before the sun existed. No comparison.

Genesis explains in a language things that do not exist in words.

C'mon, everybody, let's sing the "Ludicrous Bullcrap" song!

What is a day, really?

 

[Balerion]

Sorry about that. Hit the button too early.

What is a day, really?

Sounds like the beginning of a bad poem....

One revolution around the sun? But God called the difference between light and darkness the first "day", and only created the sun on the fourth day. Doesn't that strike you as peculiar? The sun did not determine day and night until the fourth day, God did. There's a lot more to creation than bickerings over definitions

No, please, let's bicker over definition, because you just lost this fight.

If you want to follow this logic, then swallow this: He called the total time passed during his actions before and after the sun was created a "Day." This would indicate that the length of a "day" was the same before the sun as it was after the sun. Otherwise, he would have called the time before the sun Apples, and the time afterwards Oranges.

So, back to the mainest of main points, God himself points out the timeframe in which he worked to create the universe right there. He did not create the standard by which we measure the length of our days until the fouth "Day." And since the "Day" has kept it's name, you must accept that when god said "One day" he meant 24 hours. And when he said 6 days, he meant 6 days.

Yes, God was talking to his people. Here you see the importance of God having chosen a people - everything He told them would be valid for everyone who ever belonged to Him.

But who belonged to him? He only spoke to the ancient men and women in the Middle East/Northern Africa/Southern Asia. Was his word only intended for them?

It is obvious that many people don't heed those words. Does their exclusion from God's commandment make them "right", or only "not part of God's people"?

Again, who's to say? He only spoke to one race of men. How do you know we were all meant to be a part of this story? Maybe when he said "His creations" he was only talking about them! How do you know you aren't a product of the devil?

They are fallible. I could trust them with my life, but they have no power over any of it.

To say your friends and family have no power over your life is a lie. You do things for friends and family that you don't want to, and only because they need it to be done. You must be a lonely one, Jenyar.

God also made "honour your parents" a commandment. Not drawing guidance from them would not only be ignorant, it would be stupid

And saying "ignorant" and "Stupid" as if they had different meanings is VERY ignorant.

Evil men rarely give good advice

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!! QUOTE OF THE CENTURY!!!!

Ahahahahhahahahahahah....hahahhahaha....cough....cough....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA....hahahaha....heeeeehehehehe....sniffle....sigh.

Tell me, Jenyar, how many evil men have you known in your life, and what were you doing asking them for advice? Was God closed that day?

Just how old are you, Jenyar? A comment like that tells me you're no older than 14.

Really. Take a close look at their lives. How are their relationships with their parents, their enemies. If they admit the virtue of being truthful and honest, on what points do they disagree with what God wants them to be?

The first four commandments ring a bell?

Reason is a two-edged sword. It might make you a better person or a worse one. That's up to how you apply it.

You haven't used any reason as of yet in this debate, so you have no business trying to speak about it.

JD

 

[Jenyar]

Advice is judged by results, not by intentions.
Cicero (106 BC - 43 BC)

 

[atheroy]

jd, you just kicked ass i particularly liked

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!! QUOTE OF THE CENTURY!!!!

Ahahahahhahahahahahah....hahahhahaha....cough....cough....
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA....hahahaha....heeeeehehehehe....sniffle....sigh.

my thoughts exactly on what jenyar said.

cheers for the read

:m:

 

[Jenyar]

"It took really long time, dudes, and ya'll better appreciate it," because for him to say "uhhh....six days...yeah, that's the ticket!" if it wasn't six days, then what's the point?

Indeed, what's the point either way. If you don't believe God created, you won't care whether He did it in six days or six million years. The seven-day week, sabbath and jubilee years servd their purpose for at least 5000 years. I haven't seen one functional purpose for the big bang, or the first billion years of life, other than to caress your ego.

 

[Jenyar]

If you want to follow this logic, then swallow this: He called the total time passed during his actions before and after the sun was created a "Day." This would indicate that the length of a "day" was the same before the sun as it was after the sun. Otherwise, he would have called the time before the sun Apples, and the time afterwards Oranges.

5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." The time span would arguably not have been 24 hours unless the earth was already revolving around the sun every 24 hours, and God was using it as his reference. I'm not willing to make that assumption. Also, this light existed before there were any stars or suns to "govern" it.

So, back to the mainest of main points, God himself points out the timeframe in which he worked to create the universe right there. He did not create the standard by which we measure the length of our days until the fouth "Day." And since the "Day" has kept it's name, you must accept that when god said "One day" he meant 24 hours. And when he said 6 days, he meant 6 days.

"Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth."

16 God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fourth day.

Our days are contained within God's creation "day". We can't tell the difference. For all practical intents and purposes, our "light and darkness" was the same as God's "light and darkness". We simply couldn't tell them apart without our sun as reference.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Litteral, schmitteral...

Originally posted by Jenyar
----------
If you don't believe God created, you won't care whether He did it in six days or six million years.
----------
(This is an "either-or" statement. You are limiting God according to YOUR understanding of God. We each have our own understanding of our Creator/God who is one and the same God as yours. How convenient it would be if we each had our own personal gods. I could just have my god fight with your god to see who wins, but it doesn't work that way. There is only ONE GOD! It's a shame human beings are fighting over it! That in itself is blasphemy! To say someone else has a different God is not a slap in the face to that person, but it is a slap in the face of God! Funny, Xians do this more than anybody! Okay, my point here is that you are generalizing that people who don't believe in your literal concept of the number of days of creation don't believe in God. You're wrong as usual. I believe in God, not as an entity, but as a spiritual force, a force of energy that we all share. To say that God works on a 24-hour a day basis is limiting God again! For someone who claims to believe in God like you do, you sure limit the power of God! What difference does it make if God created the earth in a 24-hour day or in 24 million years? YOUR Bible reads "a day." Somewhere in that Bible of yours it says "a day in God's eyes is like a thousand years." You say the Bible was "written by men but inspired by God." Therefore, the inspiration these men supposedly received from God in order to write apparently did not have a consistent manual of form like the Chicago Manual of Style, etc., to go by. You sure preach the writing styles of the Gospel writers, but you believe literally the OT writings of Moses! You're inconsistent. How many days or millenia it took God to create the universe is irrelevant. The point is that God created the universe in HIS OWN TIME--NOT OURS! And to say that unless someone believes exactly what YOU believe makes them a non-believer, this is also blasphemy because you are denigrating your fellow human beings who share the One Spirit of God with YOU! All these negative things you do and say surely removes your soul from the One Spirit of God. So how could you possibly be in tune with God's wishes when you constantly disparage his creation?)

 

[Jenyar]

M*W, calm down. Your argument supports mine. Read my previous post again - the first paragraph should do - and then decide whether I'm the one limiting God to a geocentric 24 hours.

On another point. People have been having personal and tribal gods since day one. It's only with the advent of international media coverage that people have been brought under the impression that everybody ultimately believes in the same god.

If your god is a "spiritual force that we all share", he did not exist until we existed. That makes him/it subject to any kind of "creation".

 

[Balerion]

Advice is judged by results, not by intentions.

What? You're trying to put a final stamp on the "advice" portion of this topic, but I'm not biting. I'm not questioning all of the advice in the Bible; some of it is very wise, and can lead you to a happy life. But also, there are some things in it which are very self-serving to the churches.

And you are right, advice is judged by results, but you have to find and understand the intentions behind it. Realize this: The Bible is a compilation taking place over a long period of time and including many authors. The words of the first, third, fifteenth and seventy-fifth author may be pure and from the heart, but the rest may have come from con artists and/or lunatics looking for money and power.

Indeed, what's the point either way.

I wasn't saying that, Jenyar, and you know it. Don't play that game with me.

The point is that it's written in the Bible. If you don't believe what it says, then tell me, why is it written? The words are very specific...

If you don't believe God created, you won't care whether He did it in six days or six million years.

I don't believe in it. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. See, I'm a different breed from you, Jenyar. I'm not completely sold on ideas like this without some sort of proof, but on the other hand, I'm not closed to ideas that haven't been disproved. I can say that I don't believe God created the universe, based simply on the fact that there is no evidence that he did. But I can't say that it didn't happen, because who's to say?

I can tell you, though, that the stories contained in your Bible are inaccurate, and rediculous.

The seven-day week, sabbath and jubilee years servd their purpose for at least 5000 years. I haven't seen one functional purpose for the big bang, or the first billion years of life, other than to caress your ego.

Ahh, here we go again, Jenyar. You won't even give a theory that goes against your God the time of day, will you? Let me explain it to you...

The rituals that go along with most theologies are there to serve the myth. Thier purpose, in your case, are to celebrate and worship your god. They serve no greater earthly purpose. They are ritual, nothing more.

The "purpose" you don't see in the big bang isn't there anyway. There is no "purpose" to the big bang, it's just what we think happened. It's a theory. See, I'm not the one getting my ego stroked here, Jenyar...You are. I search for truth, which leads me into brick walls many times, as theories are found to be false, and laws change, and so on and so forth. You, on the other hand, have an unwaivering (albiet nieve and uninformed) faith in this thing that does nothing else but "prove" you right. I mean, being a logical person, I can't use something in question as proof for itself, like you do every single day!

Our days are contained within God's creation "day".

Exactly. So our days and God's days are one in the same.

Just to hike your blatant ignorance up the flagpole for the entire school to see:

19 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fourth day.

Hmm....So God does something during the day, then the evening comes, and then morning...So, when I read that, it tells me that God is seeing the days the same way we are. If he didn't mean what we call a "Day" then why does he mention the evening and the morning?? If each day was equal to a bazillion years, then WHERE DOES THE EVENING AND MORNING COME INTO PLACE??

JD

 

[Jenyar]

I'm not questioning all of the advice in the Bible; some of it is very wise, and can lead you to a happy life. But also, there are some things in it which are very self-serving to the churches.

Churches are communities of people who believe in God. The good advice is in that sense just as "self-serving" as those things meant to build and maintain the church.


I'm not using the Bible to prove that it, or even I, am "right". I just point out the difference between an informed interpretation and an artificial one. But you are using it to prove itself wrong. That's no different than using it to prove itself right. Before you can judge whether the Bible is externally consistent, you have to establish what its internal consistency is. I know you could deny there is one, but that's simple ignorance. The Bible says what it intends to say, and the fact that 66 books can be seen as one means there is some kind of consistency intended. How much its message agrees with your prejudice about it or not, is open to study and interpretation.

I have only ever maintained that only the correlation between a life led according to the Bible, and the Bible itself, could pass as any "proof". The Bible informs a life that recognizes God for who He is - since that is the life that informed the Bible in the first place. It's not written to challenge scientific thought - it's meant to challenge godless thought. It's spiritually inspired, not scientifically inspired. There's a difference.

I can say that I don't believe God created the universe, based simply on the fact that there is no evidence that he did. But I can't say that it didn't happen, because who's to say?

No evidence for or against. So it comes down to faith. Your faith depends a little on your ability to oppose scientific data with Genesis, while my faith depends a little on being able to include scientific data in Genesis. Just because I believe that God created light, does not mean I think I am an authority as to how or why He created it.

The "purpose" you don't see in the big bang isn't there anyway. There is no "purpose" to the big bang, it's just what we think happened. It's a theory.

Light also has no "purpose", but the purpose we put it to. The Big Bang has no purpose other than to explain how the universe came into existance. Just like a movie has no purpose unless someone is watching it. You necessarily have to separate yourself from creation in order to make such a statement, otherwise by extention any purpose you or other people see in your life is an illusion. But it is an illusion, isn't it? Do yu see where the rift becomes visible? Where the Bible takes over and science can only observe? Can't you see how I can say God maintains our lives, that if He were just an observer as we are to the universe, we would not exist, even as illusion?

Exactly. So our days and God's days are one in the same.

I have a question for you. How long is a day on the north pole?

Hmm....So God does something during the day, then the evening comes, and then morning...So, when I read that, it tells me that God is seeing the days the same way we are. If he didn't mean what we call a "Day" then why does he mention the evening and the morning?? If each day was equal to a bazillion years, then WHERE DOES THE EVENING AND MORNING COME INTO PLACE??

What do you think God did during the "night", sleep? According to Genesis He only rested on the seventh day. That means evening and morning was something he was maintaining. God was regulating creation. Creating order out of chaos. Perhaps moving the planets into their orbits around their suns, creating a different "day" and "night" on each and every one of them. And when the earth finally settled in its regular orbit, the stars became our stars, the sun became our sun, the days our days. Since we are talking about the same Genesis account here, how can just ignore what it says to fit your objections?

 

[Balerion]

Churches are communities of people who believe in God. The good advice is in that sense just as "self-serving" as those things meant to build and maintain the church.

Sometimes, sometimes the people behind the church are not as holy as they claim. And in times when the church held great power, and waged war on nations, I will not give them the benefit of the doubt on their intentions being good. And I would not doubt that they put little (and big) lies in the Bible along the way to serve their purpose.

just point out the difference between an informed interpretation and an artificial one.

"Informed?" How on earth are you "informed," Jenyar? What is it about your opinion counts more than mine, or is more qualified than mine? You can't even see that when they say "Day" in genesis, they mean "Day," but you're the informed one? Please.

My interpretation isn't artificial, it's logical. Read the fucking thing, Jenyar. It's that easy.

But you are using it to prove itself wrong.

Yes I am. You say that, but can't see why I'm allowed to...but you're the informed one...

That's no different than using it to prove itself right

OK, Mr "Informed Interpretation," I guess I'm going to have to yet again break things down for you...

I ask you, "What makes you believe the Bible is factual?"
You say, "Because in Exodus 1:3, God says we have to believe in him to get to heaven."

You ask me, "What makes you think the Bible isn't factual?"
I say, "Because in Genesis, Earth is there before the sun exists, and we're pretty sure that's not how it occurs. Also, in Genesis, nothing is mentioned of the early hominid, which we know existed before modern man. Also, in Genesis, God calls the moon "a light," when in fact it isn't a light at all. It's merely a heavenly body that reflects the light from the sun. And nothing is mentioned why night falls, or the fact that the sun is the same thing as a star."
You curl up in the fetal position and cry.

See the difference? I base my opinions on study and common sense. Why does it get dark out? Is it because God made it so? No, it's because the side of the planet I'm on isn't facing the sun anymore. Where does rain come from? Clouds, not a vast ocean in heaven.

and the fact that 66 books can be seen as one means there is some kind of consistency intended.

Maybe, but is that a good thing for it's validity? You have to wonder who created this consistancy: The authors or the compiler of the works? Who is to say that the entire text wasn't perfectly mixed and matched and changed numerous times until it fit what somebody wanted to read? Matter of fact, there is a story that claims King James did just that.

I have only ever maintained that only the correlation between a life led according to the Bible, and the Bible itself, could pass as any "proof".

Ok, from that gibberish I got "I've only ever said that by living a good life you are proving the Bible to be right." Is that what you were shooting for? OK, becuase you are wrong. Judaism isn't the first religion, nor is it the only still around from that time, and you can live a good, sound life with any religion. No matter what the ultimate message of the God behind it is.

It's not written to challenge scientific thought - it's meant to challenge godless thought. It's spiritually inspired, not scientifically inspired. There's a difference.

You still don't grasp what science actually is, do you? Well, I'm not even going there, because I've tried and tried and tried and tried and tried with you people, and have gotten nowhere. I will say only this: As far as we know, there is no other world than the material. And science is the study of it, nothing more.

No evidence for or against.

Because as of right now there is no way to disprove a God. Even if we could witness what happened just before the big bang, the nature of a God would prevent one from discrediting it. You could always say "Well, he created the thing just before the thing just before the Big Bang."

while my faith depends a little on being able to include scientific data in Genesis.

What scientific data have you included in Genesis?

Light also has no "purpose", but the purpose we put it to.

Dude, if there wasn't light from the sun, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Because we'd be DEAD!

The Big Bang has no purpose other than to explain how the universe came into existance.

The Big Bang theory was never meant to have a purpose. It was just what some leading scientists concluded could be what happened at the beginning of the universe.

You necessarily have to separate yourself from creation in order to make such a statement, otherwise by extention any purpose you or other people see in your life is an illusion. But it is an illusion, isn't it? Do yu see where the rift becomes visible? Where the Bible takes over and science can only observe? Can't you see how I can say God maintains our lives, that if He were just an observer as we are to the universe, we would not exist, even as illusion?

I really hate to swear during these debates, because I don't want to take this to a level nobody wants to read, but really, that whole statement is bullshit. It's based on nothing, and is barely decipherable.

I have a question for you. How long is a day on the north pole?

I have an answer for you: 24 hours.

What do you think God did during the "night", sleep?

Well, that wasn't my point. My point was, that he does all this stuff during the day, and then night falls. That, to me, looks as if this story is just being made up by someone who doesn't realize that night would not fall on a being that is not on the planet. An omnipotent being like God would have been manipulating the process, but unless he was doing it from a mountain on Earth, he would not have experienced night or day. Are you understanding what I'm saying? God, a being on the outside of our material world, would not have a night or a day. So for it to be written in such a way that "Oh, OK, so I did this all day, then night came, then the next morning, and it was the 3rd day, and I started doing all this stuff."

To me, that looks like the mark of an author who is clueless as to how the system works.

That means evening and morning was something he was maintaining.

If you read it that way, then fine, but in the context it's in, I can't see how you reach that conclusion. Think about it: "And on the seventh day, God rested." So if these were things he was maintaining, why did it not all go to kaput when he rested?

And when the earth finally settled in its regular orbit, the stars became our stars, the sun became our sun, the days our days

Regular orbit? God decides what orbit it takes, correct? So where does the "Settling in" occur?

Since we are talking about the same Genesis account here, how can just ignore what it says to fit your objections?

If anyone here is ignoring the words, it's you. You refuse to believe that 6 days means 6 days. You refuse to believe that a day in Genesis was the same as it is now, when there is nothing that says it wasn't. These are ideas that you've made up in your head based on the words that don't quite fit into your logical brain (Though I think you should get a refund on that thing). And just to be clear, I'm not arguing the Bible's validity here, I'm just saying that if it says six days, it means six days. Based on the WORDS of the text, I see no reason to believe otherwise.

JD

 

[atheroy]

Before you can judge whether the Bible is externally consistent, you have to establish what its internal consistency is. I know you could deny there is one, but that's simple ignorance. The Bible says what it intends to say, and the fact that 66 books can be seen as one means there is some kind of consistency intended.

how can you talk about consistency? you question whether or not there is any consistency to historical events that happen over and over again. are you just trying to be a smart ass?

The Bible informs a life that recognizes God for who He is - since that is the life that informed the Bible in the first place.

a dumb ass? cause that is sure the indication of the god i get from the bible.

It's not written to challenge scientific thought - it's meant to challenge godless thought. It's spiritually inspired, not scientifically inspired. There's a difference.

yes but the difference arises because there was no such thing as science when the bible was written. the bible was a science to explain everything people didn't inderstand way back when. now because we understand things it seems stupid, not spiritually inspired at all. if it was, its explanation of things are not inspired by the all knowledgable god you believe in.

 

[Enron Fever]

the universe is...(carry the 4...divide by thursday...add 3)...7 years old!

but seriously folks, me being an anarchist, i really do not care. it seems to me that more important matters, like "if we added up the total iq of all the people running for cali, would it be able to fill Mary Carry's bra" and stuff of that nature.

 

[Balerion]

Atheroy,

yes but the difference arises because there was no such thing as science when the bible was written. the bible was a science to explain everything people didn't inderstand way back when. now because we understand things it seems stupid, not spiritually inspired at all. if it was, its explanation of things are not inspired by the all knowledgable god you believe in.

It's an excellent point. I wouldn't completely agree that science didn't exist back then, because discoveries have been made since mankind began looking.

Point is, though, that yes, the Bible (if it's text now is anywhere near what it origionally was) is the world seen through ignorant eyes. It's written by people who didn't understand why sometimes it was light out, and sometimes it was dark. They didn't understand rain, they didn't understand that there was an entire world out there, not just the area in which they lived.

JD

 

[Crushing Belial]

I'm a Christian and i belive the the universe is mega old i just read an article about a human skull found in 280 million year old coal but human records only go back 6000 years the sumerians are one of the oldest civilizations.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Human records

Originally posted by Crushing Belial
----------
I'm a Christian and i belive the the universe is mega old i just read an article about a human skull found in 280 million year old coal but human records only go back 6000 years the summerians are one of the oldest civilizations.
----------
(What about the cave paintings, the goddess figurines of Catyl Hawak (sp)? What about the artifacts found in Appalachia dating 30,000 years ago, not to mention all the artifacts that were found all over the world? These contain recorded history, too. Hierglyphics did come later. You're only referring to the Biblical and Sumerian records. The Biblical accounts were taken from the Sumerian records, so the Bible is not original and certainly wasn't "inspired" but "plagarized.")

 

[atheroy]

I wouldn't completely agree that science didn't exist back then, because discoveries have been made since mankind began looking.

yeah, i agree with you here. i was caught up in making my point as sharp as a could

I'm a Christian and i belive the the universe is mega old i just read an article about a human skull found in 280 million year old coal but human records only go back 6000 years the summerians are one of the oldest civilizations.

lol, where is this article. i would be most interested as to where you got it from. and human records date back farther back than 6000 years (right here you back up biblical events in a round-a-bout way) as 6000 years ago is 4000 bc. i would like to inform you now that there is much evidence recorded that humans exceed 4000 bc by several tens of thousands of years. some how i don't think you actually believe the universe is "mega old".

 

[Balerion]

Hey Atheroy, it's cool. Nice to have somebody on my side for this one!

Hey, anybody notice how quiet Jenyar has become?

JD

 

[heart]

Hey, anybody notice how quiet Jenyar has become?

LOL Yeah, he either dances like crazy or becomes quiet..just an observation