The absurdity of religious choice

Unfortunately, linguistic ability doesn't really prove anything.
aside from the linguistic ability to frame questions with words with qualitative value

We can ask all kinds of questions, but that doesn't mean that the premises underlying those questions make sense.
It means that we understand the values that drive them (even if only in a very general sense)

For instance compare - How can someone who knows very little about carpentry know the difference mahogany and silky oak tables - is totally meaningless if one doesn't really know what a table is or how mahogany and silky oak compare in terms of value

So, again:

How could an ordinary person who does not have divine inspiration possibly be able to discriminate between the material and the spiritual??
if they have qualitative values for "material" "spiritual" and "divine inspiration" they already have a very general outline
 
For instance compare - How can someone who knows very little about carpentry know the difference mahogany and silky oak tables - is totally meaningless if one doesn't really know what a table is or how mahogany and silky oak compare in terms of value

I have no idea what the difference between mahogany and silky oak is, and for the purposes of keeping a genuine ignorance in this discussion, I won't look it up for the time being.
Given that those are two different terms, "mahogany" and "silky oak", and holding to the principle that there is no true redundancy in human language, and further holding to the principle that you are not trying to trick me into typing something that is actually an obscene reference, I imagine that there is a difference between the two, but I have no idea what it is. So the difference between the two eludes me.


if they have qualitative values for "material" "spiritual" and "divine inspiration" they already have a very general outline

I'm afraid it is too general to be of any real use, though.
 
what to speak of evidence for teh idea that humans created gods, there isn't even evidence of genetics being held scientifically accountable to the phenomena of religion (or even within the link you provide)

.... The problem, to my mind, is not that Wade has overambitiously linked genetics and religion. It is that he has underambitiously portrayed religion as less encompassing and consequential than it is. ...
:shrug:
That is just part of his hypothesis for the explanation for the evolution of religion and it's effects on the human mind. Verification of the god gene or any genetic correlation between spirituality and your genetic make-up are patchy at best. As the creation of gods for our ancestors any unexplainable force or naturally occurring aspects of nature would have needed a explanation for them i.e. other worldly forces or supernatural force. By doing so they would need to personify humanoid or naturalistic elements to these gods to better understand and relate to what they are doing. Any work of fiction will have characters that you can relate to and empathize with on the pretense of knowing full well of their non-existence..However for our ancestors and half of the world's population today that need for external force to explain the purpose of our lives is physiological and social necessity in order for them to live. for me I do not need a external factor or force to get me out of bed each morning...i get up simply because I’m alive and wish to see where my life takes me based on my choices and abilities.
 
That is just part of his hypothesis for the explanation for the evolution of religion and it's effects on the human mind. Verification of the god gene or any genetic correlation between spirituality and your genetic make-up are patchy at best.

so just as talk of the "god gene" is hot air ...
As the creation of gods for our ancestors any unexplainable force or naturally occurring aspects of nature would have needed a explanation for them i.e. other worldly forces or supernatural force. By doing so they would need to personify humanoid or naturalistic elements to these gods to better understand and relate to what they are doing.
... so is your talk of men creating god.

so clearly the only "evidence" for your claims are retrospective analysis and speculations based on your anecdotal experience ... kind of like someone who doesn't take climate change seriously because the weather is fine
:shrug:

IOW you are clearly not talking about how things are but how you think things could be

Any work of fiction will have characters that you can relate to and empathize with on the pretense of knowing full well of their non-existence..However for our ancestors and half of the world's population today that need for external force to explain the purpose of our lives is physiological and social necessity in order for them to live.
The need for external force has simply been outsourced since the problems of birth, death, old age and disease are constant companions of material existence

for me I do not need a external factor or force to get me out of bed each morning...i get up simply because I’m alive and wish to see where my life takes me based on my choices and abilities.
Instead the "gods" you run to do the bidding of take the form of bosses, bank and property managers and administrative bodies that dictate how these bodies function within the parameters of family obligations/aspirations.


IOW far from your life being based solely on your choice and abilities, it is but one small part that operates under the umbrella of external forces.
 
I have no idea what the difference between mahogany and silky oak is, and for the purposes of keeping a genuine ignorance in this discussion, I won't look it up for the time being.
Given that those are two different terms, "mahogany" and "silky oak", and holding to the principle that there is no true redundancy in human language, and further holding to the principle that you are not trying to trick me into typing something that is actually an obscene reference, I imagine that there is a difference between the two, but I have no idea what it is. So the difference between the two eludes me.
Then the real question for you is "Why opt for a mahogany table over/under a silky oak table?) since the terms are essentially valueless.

"How can one distinguish the difference ..." questions are only really pertinent once one has a value system in place.

Even atheism requires clear discrimination between the material and the spiritual (although the model they use to define the spiritual could most likely be subject to criticism)




I'm afraid it is too general to be of any real use, though.
Its already answered by the value systems they are subscribing to
 
so just as talk of the "god gene" is hot air ...

... so is your talk of men creating god.


IOW you are clearly not talking about how things are but how you think things could be

How do you reconcile your opposition to the invention of gods with the writings of ancient cults, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the legend of Tiamat, in which fantastic and impossible feats are described, that most people would characterize as inventions?
 
How do you reconcile your opposition to the invention of gods with the writings of ancient cults, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the legend of Tiamat, in which fantastic and impossible feats are described, that most people would characterize as inventions?
I'm not sure whether you are trying to hold gilgamesh/tiamut as essential texts that establish the precedence of religion as a whole or simply posing a general question about personalities in scriptural texts having abilities that most people do not
 
I'm not sure whether you are trying to hold gilgamesh/tiamut as essential texts that establish the precedence of religion as a whole or simply posing a general question about personalities in scriptural texts having abilities that most people do not

I'm offering them as essential texts to show that these people invented gods, in response to your prior remark

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
so just as talk of the "god gene" is hot air ...

... so is your talk of men creating god.


IOW you are clearly not talking about how things are but how you think things could be
 
but where do you go from there to extrapolating it to all religion?
I don't know what all religion means. But I suppose some of the common threads help form a link. The two I mentioned, Gilgamesh and Tiamat, seem to link to the Caananite ideations. Other sources may show a prima facie case for inventing gods. I would suppose that any religious writing from antiquity would be sufficiently laced with legend, fable, myth and superstition to establish a prima facie case for inventing god, if those criteria were used.

I mean people even invent stuff (ie fabricate) about science too, you do realize?
Yes I have seen some scientists retained by religious groups to prepare treatises on pseudoscience. There is an occasional fabrication of a test result that gets published, though they appear to be very rare. And they get flushed out as soon as someone tries to test the result. I can't think of anything in science that compares in scale to the immensity of pitting your entire personal commitment to a fabrication. Science doesn't penetrate the conscience and manipulate it to some systemic purpose. At best, it awakens and exercises the conscience, with the constant reminder that we are prone to err, to be naive and gullible, to assume, and to believe in imaginary causes. I suppose we could define science as the informal agenda to discover natural truths with the conscience fully engaged. An example is in measurement and testing, where the boundaries of accuracy are established, and the definition of truth tends to be quite clear: pass, or fail.
 
I don't know what all religion means.
You have some other reference for all ideas about god?
But I suppose some of the common threads help form a link.
No they don't
Its just like saying common links of fabricated science are sufficient to contextualize all claims of science
The two I mentioned, Gilgamesh and Tiamat, seem to link to the Caananite ideations.
to say the least, there is no consensus on your opinions on what it seems to link

Other sources may show a prima facie case for inventing gods.
once again its simply hot air in support of hot air
I would suppose that any religious writing from antiquity would be sufficiently laced with legend, fable, myth and superstition to establish a prima facie case for inventing god, if those criteria were used.
Falsifying a claim is a lot more harder than simply pointing at a few peripheral instances on what you suppose to be misinformation

Yes I have seen some scientists retained by religious groups to prepare treatises on pseudoscience.
what are you talking about?
Fabricating in the name of science (whether somewhat innocently due to type I and II errors or quite grossly for the pursuit of name, fame, wealth and adoration) has been dogging scientific claims since day dot.


There is an occasional fabrication of a test result that gets published, though they appear to be very rare. And they get flushed out as soon as someone tries to test the result. I can't think of anything in science that compares in scale to the immensity of pitting your entire personal commitment to a fabrication. Science doesn't penetrate the conscience and manipulate it to some systemic purpose. At best, it awakens and exercises the conscience, with the constant reminder that we are prone to err, to be naive and gullible, to assume, and to believe in imaginary causes. I suppose we could define science as the informal agenda to discover natural truths with the conscience fully engaged. An example is in measurement and testing, where the boundaries of accuracy are established, and the definition of truth tends to be quite clear: pass, or fail.
So you agree it can be demonstrated that persons similarly "invent" stuff in science, yet this doesn't in any way underscore the authenticity of the discipline ... and I would hazard the suggestion that the further one migrates away from hard science the less capable the testing and verification and the more likely it is to be simply towing the line.
 
Then the real question for you is "Why opt for a mahogany table over/under a silky oak table?) since the terms are essentially valueless.

I'm not sure it's even that, but more like "Why opt for a table at all? Is a table that which I need right now? Or am I in greater need of a chair or drawer?"

Ever since I can remember, the issue of religious choice has been present in my life. There was heated argument over it in the family, with acquaintances, classmates at school.

I suppose all this strife left me with the impression that the relevance of finally choosing a religion is in that at least some of the social problems, some of the anger and contempt that I was targeted with, would be done away with. Provided, of course, that I would somehow choose "the right religion."
 
How do you reconcile your opposition to the invention of gods with the writings of ancient cults, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the legend of Tiamat, in which fantastic and impossible feats are described, that most people would characterize as inventions?

It is interesting how some people focus on the magical/fantasy elements, and ignore the ethical and philosophical components in the texts.

One thing that is typical for science fiction is its direct or subtle focus on ethical and philosophical issues.

While many people find a direct, analytical discussion of ethical and philosophical issues unappealing, they are attracted to them when they are nicely packaged in the form of science fiction or soap opera.

I think that it is precisely the ethical and philosophical issues that are the relevant ones, the seven-mile boots, magic potions and space ships are just incidental in a narrative that is actually about courage, meaning of life, friendship and such.
 
You have some other reference for all ideas about god?
Sure. A creator and governor of the universe who people worship.

No they don't
Its just like saying common links of fabricated science are sufficient to contextualize all claims of science
Unlike religion, the principles of Science do not have a penalty clause for anyone who would disturb its tenets (e.g., burning at the stake) but rather a reward system (e.g., Nobel prize). Any such fabrications are rare incursions into promulgated truth, falsifiable, and purged upon discovery. However, religion retains core fallacies for millennia, rejects falsifiability or testing, and accretes myth, superstition, legend and fable, to support and defend the myth, superstition, legend and fable that comprise the core belief. Therefore science and religion are diametrically opposed in their treatment of fabrication.

to say the least, there is no consensus on your opinions on what it seems to link
The connection between Gilgamesh and Noah, or Tiamat and Genesis, does not arise out of opinion, but out of the intrinsic properties of the accounts, namely, they each propound superstition, myth, legend and fable. They correlate in seeking to explain phenomena for which there was no science.

once again its simply hot air in support of hot air
There are other sources, besides Gilgamesh and Tiamat, where creation mythology is propounded. Some of these (Egyptian, Phoenician, Assyrian, Sumerian, Akkadian and Babylonian) correlate with Caananite beliefs, both geographically and in time. They correlate in the extent of the characters of superstition, myth, legend and fables. There are additional elements that correlate more directly. My statement was to acknowledge this, merely to bookmark this as supporting evidence.

Falsifying a claim is a lot more harder than simply pointing at a few peripheral instances on what you suppose to be misinformation
The presence of superstition, myth, legend and fable, in the religious writings of antiquity, is an intrinsic property, available prima facie, without need of making claims or engaging hypothesis testing. To the extent these characters attach to core tenets, then the instances are not peripheral, but central.

what are you talking about?
Fabricating in the name of science (whether somewhat innocently due to type I and II errors or quite grossly for the pursuit of name, fame, wealth and adoration) has been dogging scientific claims since day dot.
Missing from this analysis is the fact that truths are built upon the proof of error. The known errors you refer to have served as stepping stones, to lift people out of the darkness of religious superstition, and to supplant myth with knowledge, which is the contribution of science. Also missing is the sense of intent or complicity that normally attaches to the term "fabricate".
In religion, the intent to deceive is feasible insofar as the goal is to preserve superstition, myth, legend and fables. In science, deception is infeasible, insofar as the goal is to preserve truth, accuracy and reliability.
So you agree it can be demonstrated that persons similarly "invent" stuff in science, yet this doesn't in any way underscore the authenticity of the discipline ... and I would hazard the suggestion that the further one migrates away from hard science the less capable the testing and verification and the more likely it is to be simply towing the line.
I disagree that science is polluted as you seem to suggest. Whether or not people invent stuff does not impugn the authenticity of science. One of the reasons science prevails is that it assumes people and systems will err, and so it imposes error detection and correction in order to achieve and maintain accuracy and quality of results. This is rather basic to science, since discovery and proof of error is the foundation for establishing truth. This leaves the methodologies of science unscathed. Minor or temporary setbacks in some particular branch of investigation, will only tend to spawn new investigation, new discovery and new progress. This is why science enjoys continuous growth in the size of discovered truth, while religion remains relatively static in the size of its belief. Science brings authority that is authenticated by proof and evidence, whereas religious authority is left unauthenticated, without proof or evidence, relying instead on its library of superstition, myth, legend and fables.
 
It is interesting how some people focus on the magical/fantasy elements, and ignore the ethical and philosophical components in the texts.

One thing that is typical for science fiction is its direct or subtle focus on ethical and philosophical issues.

While many people find a direct, analytical discussion of ethical and philosophical issues unappealing, they are attracted to them when they are nicely packaged in the form of science fiction or soap opera.

I think that it is precisely the ethical and philosophical issues that are the relevant ones, the seven-mile boots, magic potions and space ships are just incidental in a narrative that is actually about courage, meaning of life, friendship and such.

The difference is that science fiction is FICTION. We know it's fiction, we aren't told to believe in the literal truth of Asimov!
 
The difference is that science fiction is FICTION. We know it's fiction, we aren't told to believe in the literal truth of Asimov!
And, consequently, no one is trying to get The Foundation Trilogy into the curriculum of science classes. ;)
 
What a spectacular failure at a rebuttal. He takes your post seriously, gives a thoughtful response, and you give him this?

You are a troll in the fullest sense of the word.

Water/Rosa has always been a troll. She always will be a troll.
 
so just as talk of the "god gene" is hot air ...

... so is your talk of men creating god.

so clearly the only "evidence" for your claims are retrospective analysis and speculations based on your anecdotal experience ... kind of like someone who doesn't take climate change seriously because the weather is fine
:shrug:

IOW you are clearly not talking about how things are but how you think things could be


The need for external force has simply been outsourced since the problems of birth, death, old age and disease are constant companions of material existence


Instead the "gods" you run to do the bidding of take the form of bosses, bank and property managers and administrative bodies that dictate how these bodies function within the parameters of family obligations/aspirations.


IOW far from your life being based solely on your choice and abilities, it is but one small part that operates under the umbrella of external forces.
Question to you then...did i say what aspects of this material world run my life? In addition did you even bother to question if did love my family and wish to support them? Thirdly did you just implied that I deify any other mortal being? What evidence do YOU have to support your prejudice against me?. I only wish to succeed in this man-made jungle and buy freedom( in this society true freedom doesn't exist without capital or some form of monetary inducements) for me an obsession with the afterlife and metaphysical world is clear sign of an inability to cope with the current and real one. As the simile of me to someone who doesn’t believe in global warming (which is a incorrect label for climate change by the way) seems unrelated to the subject at hand (that being the fundamental question and mysteries of Homo Sapiens existence on this tiny blue speck
Before John Lennon imagined "living life in peace," he conjured "no heaven … / no hell below us …/ and no religion too."
No religion: What was Lennon summoning? For starters, a world without "divine" messengers, like Osama bin Laden, sparking violence. A world where mistakes, like the avoidable loss of life in Hurricane Katrina, would be rectified rather than chalked up to "God's will." Where politicians no longer compete to prove who believes more strongly in the irrational and untenable. Where critical thinking is an ideal. In short, a world that makes sense.

In recent years scientists specializing in the mind have begun to unravel religion's "DNA." They have produced robust theories, backed by empirical evidence (including "imaging" studies of the brain at work), that support the conclusion that it was humans who created God, not the other way around. And the better we understand the science, the closer we can come to "no heaven … no hell … and no religion too."
Like our physiological DNA, the psychological mechanisms behind faith evolved over the eons through natural selection. They helped our ancestors work effectively in small groups and survive and reproduce, traits developed long before recorded history, from foundations deep in our mammalian, primate and African hunter-gatherer past.
For example, we are born with a powerful need for attachment, identified as long ago as the 1940s by psychiatrist John Bowlby and expanded on by psychologist Mary Ainsworth. Individual survival was enhanced by protectors, beginning with our mothers. Attachment is reinforced physiologically through brain chemistry, and we evolved and retain neural networks completely dedicated to it. We easily expand that inborn need for protectors to authority figures of any sort, including religious leaders and, more saliently, gods. God becomes a super parent, able to protect us and care for us even when our more corporeal support systems disappear, through death or distance.
Scientists have so far identified about 20 hard-wired, evolved "adaptations" as the building blocks of religion. Like attachment, they are mechanisms that underlie human interactions: Brain-imaging studies at the National Institutes of Health showed that when test subjects were read statements about religion and asked to agree or disagree, the same brain networks that process human social behavior — our ability to negotiate relationships with others — were engaged.
Among the psychological adaptations related to religion are our need for reciprocity, our tendency to attribute unknown events to human agency, our capacity for romantic love, our fierce "out-group" hatreds and just as fierce loyalties to the in groups of kin and allies. Religion hijacks these traits. The rivalry between Sunni and Shiite Muslims, for example, or the doctrinal battles between Protestant and Catholic reflect our "groupish" tendencies.
In addition to these adaptations, humans have developed the remarkable ability to think about what goes on in other people's minds and create and rehearse complex interactions with an unseen other. In our minds we can de-couple cognition from time, place and circumstance. We consider what someone else might do in our place; we project future scenarios; we replay past events. It's an easy jump to say, conversing with the dead or to conjuring gods and praying to them.
Morality, which some see as imposed by gods or religion on savage humans, science sees as yet another adaptive strategy handed down to us by natural selection.


Yale psychology professor Paul Bloom notes that "it is often beneficial for humans to work together … which means it would have been adaptive to evaluate the niceness and nastiness of other individuals." In groundbreaking research, he and his team found that infants in their first year of life demonstrate aspects of an innate sense of right and wrong, good and bad, even fair and unfair. When shown a puppet climbing a mountain, either helped or hindered by a second puppet, the babies oriented toward the helpful puppet. They were able to make an evaluative social judgment, in a sense a moral response.
Michael Tomasello, a developmental psychologist who co-directs the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, has also done work related to morality and very young children. He and his colleagues have produced a wealth of research that demonstrates children's capacities for altruism. He argues that we are born altruists who then have to learn strategic self-interest.
 
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