Thanksgiving and religion

[Medicine*Woman]

Do you have to be thankful to an entity? Could you just be thankful to whatever fate or luck brought you the blessings that you have?...

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M*W: I totally agree. We create the life we live. We need thank no one other than ourselves when good things happen to us. We are in total control of where we decide to be at any particular time. The power of positive thinking (some may call it prayer), negates the natural negativity in our lives. Therefore, we create our own personal good.
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M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote of the Day:

"Human life has no meaning independent of itself.... The meaning of life is what we choose to give it." ~ Paul Kurtz

 

[Orleander]

Do you have to be thankful to an entity?.....

no, you don't HAVE to be, but where's the harm?
I remember sitting around the table and my grandpa saying grace. Its a good memory.
My daughter will be saying grace tomorrow (she's the only christian in the house) and what's the harm in that?
:shrug:

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I just today happened to get spammed with the original "memo" from George Washington recommending the establishment of an official day of thanks-giving, sometime in the mid-1780s. He was particularly thankful for the fact that the U.S. was not caught up in the wars that were ravaging Europe, although when I read that I thought he must have been in the early stage of Alzheimer's, if he didn't recall crossing the Delaware and all that other incredibly recent and incredibly warlike stuff. Anyway, he made a zillion clear and pointed references to the supreme being fabricated by his own religion, and that was who (or what) he expected Americans to express our thanks to.

This harkens to one of my all-time favorite movie quotes, spoken by Peter O'Toole in "The Ruling Class." He was the black sheep of his family because he thought he was God, and circumstances unexpectedly made him the lord of the manor. The first time someone worked up the courage to ask him why he thought he was God, he answered, "That's simple. Every time I pray, I find that I'm talking to myself."

So make Thanksgiving a day to express your gratitude to yourself for all the good things you've done.

(Don't give a thought to the bad things. You were supposed to have spent Yom Kippur doing that.)

 

[Baron Max]

I totally agree. We create the life we live. We need thank no one other than ourselves when good things happen to us. We are in total control of where we decide to be at any particular time.

So anything bad happening, we create that, too? If some big, mean, nasty man comes to your house tonight, kills your husband, rapes and kills your daughter and you, then you think that you created that event?

Interesting point of view, MW, but I think you should think about that some. For example, you might have control over what you do, but you don't have control over what others around you do. So your idea of "total control" is just so much egocentric bullshit.

Baron Max

 

[linscomb]

no, you don't HAVE to be, but where's the harm?
I remember sitting around the table and my grandpa saying grace. Its a good memory.
My daughter will be saying grace tomorrow (she's the only christian in the house) and what's the harm in that?
:shrug:

I wasn't implying a harm. I much prefer that people believe in something rather than aimlessly disagree with the world. I really was just asking a question.

Most of the world is going to be thankful to some greater being because most of the world believes in some form of a god (though, granted, we are specifically talking about Americans at Thanksgiving...). I just wonder if most people, when they are giving thanks, are really directing it at someone (human or omnipotent) or just giving thanks in general.

A salute going out to the cosmos of relief and appreciation...

The original question was raised because, after reading the referenced article, the whole idea behind the article seemed sad and rather shameful Regardless of the answer to whom or what we are thanking - does it really matter? Do we really need to police how other people spend their holidays?

 

[Orleander]

...original question was raised because, after reading the referenced article, the whole idea behind the article seemed sad and rather shameful Regardless of the answer to whom or what we are thanking - does it really matter? Do we really need to police how other people spend their holidays?

No! :bravo:

 

[snake river rufus]

I just today happened to get spammed with the original "memo" from George Washington recommending the establishment of an official day of thanks-giving, sometime in the mid-1780s. He was particularly thankful for the fact that the U.S. was not caught up in the wars that were ravaging Europe, although when I read that I thought he must have been in the early stage of Alzheimer's, if he didn't recall crossing the Delaware and all that other incredibly recent and incredibly warlike stuff. Anyway, he made a zillion clear and pointed references to the supreme being fabricated by his own religion, and that was who (or what) he expected Americans to express our thanks to.

I think that one is a hoax for the reasons that you pointed out and the Fact that Washington was a deist. I've been looking at his writtings, to reacquaint my self with 2nd ammendment origins, and he doesn't mention god much and I have not saw the name jesus anywhere yet.

 

[Grantywanty]

I'm too old to be against much of anything. Believing in the supernatural is really never "OK". Doing it out loud and in public?

Oh, hell I see people getting down pretty hot and heavy with kissing etc. and that's fine with me.

Also much of the public stuff is about the religion and not the practice.

And so on. We could drag out the metaphors, but I think you get the point.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

So anything bad happening, we create that, too? If some big, mean, nasty man comes to your house tonight, kills your husband, rapes and kills your daughter and you, then you think that you created that event?

Interesting point of view, MW, but I think you should think about that some. For example, you might have control over what you do, but you don't have control over what others around you do. So your idea of "total control" is just so much egocentric bullshit.

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M*W: Some things are not within our control. Accidents happen. If an intruder broke into my house and killed my family, I would certainly question my home security, but what if I didn't know it was broken? Auto accidents can be avoided sometimes just by paying closer attention, but not every little detail of our lives can we be in control. That's not what I implied. We create the life we are living by attracting positive energy or negative energy to ourselves, but even then accidents happen. And, no, we really have no control over anyone but ourselves, and even then, it's not 100% of the time. However, I would much rather rule my life by positive thoughts and actions (giving more than receiving, etc.). That also creates positive energy in your life. Problem is that we're all gonna die someday, so we might as make our lives the best possible place to be while we're here. Positive energy attracts positive things into our lives. Negative energy negates the good and repels one from being energized with positivity. Maybe it's not 100% of the time, but I strongly believe that a positively thinking person will have a higher attraction to good things.

 

[John99]

The fictional jesus does not really save.

You must think Siddhārta Gautama was also fictional. Fictional and actual beings are deliberately simple to differentiate, this has been true throughout history. Also consider litteral and figurative in regards to 'saving'.

I always thought Thanksgiving was a day to thank immigrants because they are the only ones working.

 

[John99]

Jesus most certainly DID EXIST:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKDC2iBQTYg

 

[Baron Max]

M*W: Some things are not within our control. Accidents happen.
..., but not every little detail of our lives can we be in control.
..., but even then accidents happen. And, no, we really have no control over anyone but ourselves, and even then, it's not 100% of the time.

So I was right ....and you were wrong. We can't control our lives.

Positive energy attracts positive things into our lives. Negative energy negates the good and repels one from being energized with positivity. Maybe it's not 100% of the time, but I strongly believe that a positively thinking person will have a higher attraction to good things.

Is that like your ...ahh, religion?

"Positive energy attracts positive things..."? Can you prove that, M*W? ...like you constantly ask theists to do?

I've already shown you that what you're saying is basically bullshit, yet you continue to believe ....just like others believe in others things. Does that make you a hypocrite, M*W?

Baron Max

 

[linscomb]

Wow, not getting of the point at all...

 

[Medicine*Woman]

So I was right ....and you were wrong. We can't control our lives.

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M*W: I don't think it is a 100% possibility, but I also believe we should be more responsible for our lives, and be more aware of ourselves in our place(s) in the world. Are you referring to pre-destination? I don't believe in pre-destination, but I do believe in being more responsible for myself. I believe we create our own destiny (regardless of which direction we may go). That's where the power of positive thinking comes in. "Believing makes it so...," etc..

How many times or people you may have known who play the victim card? They will say things like, "I lost my job, because the boss didn't like me," or "I could have made it home on time if that bus hadn't been in front of me...," or "I've put on weight, because of my wife's cooking." These people empower others rather than themselves. They're in denial. My point here is that if we put more responsibility on ourselves, we would carve a better destiny for our future. Even then, we may not have an 100% positive outcome, but we are more in control of our lives.

Is that like your ...ahh, religion?

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M*W: I wouldn't call what I believe a "religion." It's just common sense.

"Positive energy attracts positive things..."? Can you prove that, M*W? ...like you constantly ask theists to do?

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M*W: I'm not aware of any studies along these lines. It just makes sense to me, and it has even worked for me, therefore, I always try to be positive.

I've already shown you that what you're saying is basically bullshit, yet you continue to believe ....just like others believe in others things. Does that make you a hypocrite, M*W?

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M*W: Baron, you can call it bullshit all you want to, but you're not going to change what I believe. You only have enough power to change yourself and no one else. A "hypocrite" is someone who tries to change others, because they have no self-control. You have never seen me try to convert anyone to atheism. In fact, I have also stated that it is impossible to convert anyone to atheism. That is strictly a matter for oneself to decide, and it often takes decades of personal growth to accomplish.
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M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote of the Day:

"Man's responsibility increases as that of the gods decreases." ~ Andre Gide

 

[Baron Max]

M*W: I don't think it is a 100% possibility, but I also believe we should be more responsible for our lives, and be more aware of ourselves in our place(s) in the world.

And carry big guns to protect ourselves from those who would do harm.

Baron, you can call it bullshit all you want to, but you're not going to change what I believe.

And yet you come here quite often trying to change what others believe(religious people) ...by basically calling it bullshit. Why is that, M*W? Is it because it's okay for YOU to believe something that's bullshit, but you're going to ridicule others who believe something different?

Baron Max

 

[Medicine*Woman]

And carry big guns to protect ourselves from those who would do harm.

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M*W: It is not necessary to carry a gun, but it is necessary for us to not put ourselves in danger. I live in a big metropolitan area that is rife with drugs, crime, and illegal immigration. I don't carry a gun, but I do have a fancy schmancy home security system. I see that as being proactive, not reactive.

And yet you come here quite often trying to change what others believe (religious people) ...by basically calling it bullshit. Why is that, M*W?

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M*W: First, please find where I have tried to convert anyone to atheism. Yes, I am opposed to any kind of religion, and I do make an effort to study the evils of christianity. Secondly, I am not the only member here who possesses atheist philosophy.

Is it because it's okay for YOU to believe something that's bullshit, but you're going to ridicule others who believe something different?

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M*W: Doing research on christianity is not ridiculing others. Stating facts is not ridiculing others. Questioning ancient belief systems, and seeking the truth, is not ridiculing others.

 

[Baron Max]

M*W: It is not necessary to carry a gun, but it is necessary for us to not put ourselves in danger. I live in a big metropolitan area that is rife with drugs, crime, and illegal immigration.

But by liviing in that big metro area, you've already put yourself in danger ...but you just can't see that or can't admit it, one or the other.

I've found that almost everyone who is harmed in some way always says something like, "Gee, I knew stuff like that happened, but I didn't think it would happen to me!"

All you're doing, M*W is gambling with your life and the lives of your loved ones.

M*W: Doing research on christianity is not ridiculing others. Stating facts is not ridiculing others. Questioning ancient belief systems, and seeking the truth, is not ridiculing others.

I agree. But the difference is that YOU DO ridicule others who believe differently to you, as do many others here who claim to be atheists. One can talk about religious beliefs without ridiculing those who believe ...yet you and many others don't or can't ...you ridicule them.

Baron Max

 

[Medicine*Woman]

But by liviing in that big metro area, you've already put yourself in danger ...but you just can't see that or can't admit it, one or the other.

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M*W: Are you saying it is safer to live in a rural area? Really, when you think about it, there is no place that is truly safe. I came from a very rural mountainous village in Appalachia. The greatest worry we had was getting eaten by a grizzly bear. Then everyday those coal miners went to work when it was still dark, and came home after it was dark, and feared the possibility of a mine explosion. So, I think living is a major city of about 4-5 million people is safe. I guess it's what one is used to. I'd prefer to be back in WV, however.

I've found that almost everyone who is harmed in some way always says something like, "Gee, I knew stuff like that happened, but I didn't think it would happen to me!"

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M*W: True. That goes for everyone who has has been harmed, but I am not going to live in fear no matter where I am.

All you're doing, M*W is gambling with your life and the lives of your loved ones.

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M*W: I find this amusing, because you really don't know me or if I endanger myself and my loved ones. I could give you a long list of reasons why I should have been off this planet right now, but the list might bore you, because I defied everything on it.

I agree. But the difference is that YOU DO ridicule others who believe differently to you, as do many others here who claim to be atheists. One can talk about religious beliefs without ridiculing those who believe ...yet you and many others don't or can't ...you ridicule them. [/QUOTE]
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M*W: Think of it more as contradicting their belief system. It's an educational tool. I always encourage theists to pick up a scholarly book on the subject and read it. If I ridicule them for their beliefs, I do it because they don't want to learn anything more than what they've already been taught. They are afraid to learn the truth. To me, that is endangering yourself and your loved ones.

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M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote of the Day:

"There was a time when religion ruled the world. It is known as the Dark Ages." ~ Ruth Hurmence Green

 

[Baron Max]

M*W: .... I came from a very rural mountainous village in Appalachia. The greatest worry we had was getting eaten by a grizzly bear.

Then you sure didn't have any worries, because there ain't no grizzly bears in the Appalachian region of the USA.

(on ridicule): M*W: ... If I ridicule them for their beliefs, I do it because they don't want to learn anything more than what they've already been taught. They are afraid to learn the truth.

Don't want to learn? Afraid to learn? See? That's ridiculing them!

M*W, you should learn a little more about tolerance of others. And it's odd that I should have to tell you about that ...being half black as you are!

I always encourage theists to pick up a scholarly book on the subject and read it.

A "scholarly book"? M*W, you do realize, don't you, that all of those books on religion, pro or con, are nothing more than the author's opinion. There is not proofs one way or another. As an atheist, you've bought into the non-religious way of thinking, you're just as seceptible to the propaganda as you claim theists are.

Once you get around to being able to prove your assertions, M*W, then you can begin to ridicule others for their beliefs. But until you can prove it, yours is no less a belief then their's.

Tolerance, M*W, is something you should read a "scholarly book" about!

Baron Max

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Then you sure didn't have any worries, because there ain't no grizzly bears in the Appalachian region of the USA.

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M*W: Then brown bear for f*ck's sake. Since this isn't a forum about bears, this is simply petty on your part to detract from the issue at hand. I've seen black bears in Appalachia, and I've seen brown bears that we called "grizzly" (but they had already been cooked for eating. Let's get back to the real issues here and forego the rampant pettiness.

Don't want to learn? Afraid to learn? See? That's ridiculing them!

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M*W: Sorry, but that's been my experience as well as the experience of every atheist on this forum. Call it what you want, but it still boils down to ignorance. If the shoe fits, wear it!

M*W, you should learn a little more about tolerance of others. And it's odd that I should have to tell you about that ...being half black as you are!

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M*W: I am way more tolerant than some of the theists on this forum. And as to your racial slur, I don't happen to be half black! Don't know where you got that from. I'm 100% Caucasian.

A "scholarly book"? M*W, you do realize, don't you, that all of those books on religion, pro or con, are nothing more than the author's opinion. There is not proofs one way or another. As an atheist, you've bought into the non-religious way of thinking, you're just as seceptible to the propaganda as you claim theists are.

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M*W: The type of literature I read is only scholarly research done by lettered individuals who have spent their lives teaching the truth. You obviously don't read anything scholarly, so I really don't expect you to be on that particular page on this forum. I don't believe everything I read, but I always do cross-reference material I am unsure of. Long before I was an atheist, I was deluded that there was a savior. Now I'm convinced there is not.

Once you get around to being able to prove your assertions, M*W, then you can begin to ridicule others for their beliefs. But until you can prove it, yours is no less a belief then their's.

Tolerance, M*W, is something you should read a "scholarly book" about!

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M*W: When you and the likes of you can prove there is a god, I'll take it under advisment. Until then, I will believe what I believe, and I have no problem with you believing what you believe. This forum is open to all views, beliefs and opinions, and therefore, I will give mine. Since you know where I stand, and I know where you stand, there is no further necessity to beat this dead horse.