Thanks for your prayers

Hi all. This is excellent. I live in rural Pennsylvania and there are normal christians and fundies all over the place. Every other barn has a sign that says "Repent and be saved" or something like that. And there are bill boards scattered all over with stuff like "Where will you spend ETERNITY? Heaven, or Hell?" and "Jesus Died for YOU! (bloody 10 foot high jesus hanging on a cross)". And lots of business around here are christian businesses. So I get many chances to practice patience and tolerance (Thanks for your purchase, God blesss...).

Raithere:

I find it helps to think of them as children, hopelessly naive but with good intentions.
Click to expand...

I actually feel that way when confronted by christians. The really do seem like naive children to me.

Overall though, what I really feel, is that if I became as open with my atheism as the christians around here are with their religion, I would be "shunned" as the Amish say. Now given that this is a bit of a "nest" of fundies, I shouldn't be too suprised by that, right? But I've gotten that from "regular" christians also.

Lori, if I wasn't such a meanie, could you be my unbiased friend? Could I be yours? I don't know. Here's another thought. Given the way most atheists and serious christians really feel, can they be honest friends? As atheists, we all share one thing in common. We think that belief in the supernatural is a form of mental weakness. And christians, I think, see our lack of belief as a sing of spiritual weakness. I've never had a close friend who was a serious christian.

That's another thing. There are all levels of christians. From the casual bloke who does the church thing on sundays and calls himself a christian, to the foaming fundie who does nothing else. By serious christian, I mean the one who is private about it but tries their damnedest(?) to live what they perceive as a christian life. They truly believe and want to do the right thing. (Lori?)

Are there levels of atheist also? I think so. I alternate between two modes, depending on my mood. In one, I think that all christians must be silly, rather unintelligent, people. In the other, I realize that I know christain engineers, and other professionals who are clearly not silly or unintelligent. Hmm... Sometimes I think I'm on the cusp of understanding something fundamental about human nature.
 
MW,

I sympathize with your position. And I don't believe for a second that you "lie" to your friend in a calculated manner to gain her legal services. I bet you have a lot more integrity than that.
 
superluminal said:
could you be my unbiased friend?
Click to expand...

please don't use the word "bias" because that combination of letters sounds very annoying to me.

Hmm... Sometimes I think I'm on the cusp of understanding something fundamental about human nature.
Click to expand...

it's probably a sign that you're getting sick.

sick, people who have a cross around their neck on which a man died.

atheists are sick.

save your preys.
 
superluminal said:
Yorda,

I would love for you to tell me why that combination of letters annoys you.
Click to expand...

because it reminds me of another annoying word in another language, anyway, if you're a smart guy, don't talk to me.
 
super reading through this thread, amused me, as I am quite forthcoming with my beliefs,
was what happened today I when round to see a family about some business, they seemed a normal group of people, they did have a crucifix on the wall, after conducting the business, walking out the garden door I saw a beautiful golden coloured spider, to cries of kill it kill it I scooped it up in my hands and placed it in the rocks, I was then asked was I a buddhist, and replied no I'm an atheist, the looks of horror on the faces of these people, they then said I'm sorry we could not possibly have you do any work for us, you understand dont you, I said no, but fair enough goodbye.
 
superluminal said:
MW,

I sympathize with your position. And I don't believe for a second that you "lie" to your friend in a calculated manner to gain her legal services. I bet you have a lot more integrity than that.
Click to expand...
*************
M*W: Thanks, superL.
 
It's just such an uncomfortable feeling though. They still continue to do it. I literally squirm sometimes as I bite my lips together to not tell them to back off because it not only makes me uncomfortable, but sometimes embarrassed as well... not embarrassed for me, but I actually feel embarrassed for them because they believe as they do. I get calls just about every day from family and friends who are checking in to see how things are going and to see if I have given birth yet (as though I'd be home the same day anyway..lol).. and each time on the phone or when the come to visit, they tell me how I should pray. Some have even come with their prayers in hand and attempt to pray on me :(. It's not only embarrassing at this point, but annoying as hell as well. They know I am an atheist, yet they keep doing it, as though they're compelled and can't help themselves.

I have had medallions of religious icons given to me and told to wear it on my stomach.. :eek:.. Even if I were religious, how in the hell can I wear a religious medallion on my stomach, especially in light that I'm 8 months pregnant.. Again, on such occasions, even though I merely want to throw said medallions over the side of my balcony, I merely smile politely so as not to hurt their feelings and attempt to change the subject. I now have about a dozen of these little things in an envelope in the back of a drawer somewhere.

Especially after the experience with my mother last week, I actually feel guilty if I just say no or tell them to stop. So all I can come out with is "hmmmm", smile politely and then try to change the subject. I mean if they want to pray for me, then fine, pray, but the pressure that is placed on my head to pray... in all honesty, it makes me want to scream because they know that I don't believe, but the keep doing it.. lol.. I actually end up feeling like a small, disobedient child for not listening to them.

But to me, what they believe is akin to a child believing in the tooth-fairy or Santa. Only with a child I wouldn't want to break the illusion because well they're children and should be allowed some fantasies (plus I think back to when I was 5 and remember my Grandmother looking at me in astonishment and telling me that Santa did not exist when I mentioned that Santa was going to give me this toy.. heh.. I still remember feeling frankly shocked and at a loss and I still remember my parents being upset at her because they felt she stole my childhood somehow.. lol..)..

But when an adult still believes in the fantasies of God, etc, well I find it disturbing. And why share them? Why force it down people's throats? I don't tell them to not believe, why do they persist in telling me to believe and then treating me like a pariah when it becomes obvious to them that I just don't believe...

Why is it that theists can't understand that atheists simply do not believe... that even when sick or things aren't going well... that we still don't believe.. It honestly feels like they're taking advantage of the situation and trying to convert. It's as though they're ghouls! My mother in particular hasn't been too bad, with the exception of the hospital visit when it got really bad.. but some of the others in my family.. Ghouls.. :(

Aaarrrgghhhhhhh... It is so frustrating...
 
Last edited:
I'm not particularly one to 'hide' who I am. If someone gives me the god shit, I give them the atheist response.

atheist...*sneeze*

anyone else..."God bless you"

atheist..."What's that supposed to mean?! Are you trying to convert me?! Don't shove that shit down my throat! It's a conspiracy and everyone is out to get me! I hate you, I hate you, I hate you!!!"

anyone else..."Whoa. My bad."
Click to expand...

That's generally now stated as just "bless you", and when someone does say it I generally ask whether all those "blesses" given ever saved anyone from the plague, let alone being of any value now.

But people in general are still at a very superstitious level.. Thinking that 'touching wood' has a use, that saying hello to magpies is somehow beneficial, or that crossing your fingers will raise your chances of winning the lottery. It's all bollocks and everyone knows it, but it does not stop people from clinging to it much like they cling to space beings and thoughts of a second life.
 
Yorda,

because it reminds me of another annoying word in another language, anyway, if you're a smart guy, don't talk to me.
Click to expand...

Then don't respond to my posts. In fact, why don't you get the hell out of my thread?
 
audible,

to cries of kill it kill it I scooped it up in my hands and placed it in the rocks
Click to expand...
I've noticed in many christians a very strong indifference/acceptance to killing other creatures. Do you think it's because the bible tells them to go out and subdue nature, and that they are seperate and above the rest of nature?
 
Bells,

I've noticed that the atheists I meet seem to be very caring, generally nice people. We don't want to offend or hurt others feelings. Maybe that's because we actually take an active stance on our ethics and have thought about what it means to take full responsibility for our behavior. We don't point to a book and say "But the book says...". Who gives a crap what the book says. I don't need a reference manual to know how to be kind and decent to other humans.

It's funny. My therapist (first one to crack a joke gets a shot of thorazine in the ass) is a theist. We talk about this sometimes and when I mention christians he rolls his eyes and will usually say something about avoiding them at all costs... Especially the ones who say they are good christians as if that's supposed to carry some moral advantage. We laugh.
 
Bells said:
Why is it that theists can't understand that atheists simply do not believe... that even when sick or things aren't going well... that we still don't believe.
Click to expand...
Because it disrupts their fantasy. God to them is so fundamental a concept, so basic and essential to their world-view that they cannot really even conceive of not believing.

This is constantly evinced in the way that they talk to us. How many times have you heard it asserted that we are atheists simply because we want to be free of moral constraints or because we hate god? How difficult, neigh impossible, is it to convince them that our disbelief is born of thoughtful introspection and deliberate reason? That disbelief is disbelief and not denial. Or that one can be atheist, have a sound ethical philosophy, and find one's purpose in life?

Theists hate atheism so much because we break their focus, their willing suspension of disbelief. The most common response that I hear to, "I'm an atheist." is a very confused "Why?"

~Raithere
 
Wow, Excellent thread!
I'll try to find time to add some proper thoughts, later... but for now, I'll just point out some recommended reading (for super and Bells in particular) - the stuff in these references is interesting, but should be read (as all things should) with a reasonably critical eye.

Richard Dawkins - Religion be Damned (or Let There Be Brights).
Dawkins laments the way that atheists are shunned in an increasingly Christian America, and promotes a meme to spark a change.
Richard Dawkins said:
...bright is intended to come to the aid of another beleaguered community in the US: those who, in the most religiose country in the Western world, have no religion, who are variously labeled atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, philosophical naturalists, secularists, or humanists.

A Gallup poll in 1999 asked American voters the following question: "If your party nominated a generally well-qualified person for president who happened to be an X would you vote for that person?" X took on the following values: Catholic, Jew, Baptist, Mormon, black, homosexual, woman, atheist. Six out of the eight categories secured better than 90 percent approval. But only 59 percent would vote for a homosexual, and just 49 percent would vote for an atheist...
Click to expand...
See also the-brights.net

James Fowler - Stages Of Faith.
Dr Fowler is a Doctor of Theology who has conducted comprehensive and revealing research into various common forms of adult faith. While his perspective is decidedly western with a distinct Christian flavour, he does offer some striking insights into the way in which people believe.
He has constructed a 6-stage model of fiath development. The first two are essentialy part of the normal development of children, and stages 3 to 6 are adult stages.
Interview with Dr Fowler.
 
My dear significant other often tells me that I should tell them to 'sod off'. He tells me I am too polite sometimes and he's right. But then the thought enters my mind that they are my family and do care about me so it's best to just keep quiet and be polite about it.

That they consider not believing impossible is something I have come to accept from them. I have had some family members call me a heathen and a devil and some have even gone so far as to come pounding on my door and calling me at all hours yelling obscenities about how I have been 'tempted by the devil' or am 'host to the great demon' and my personal favourite that I 'have become a vessel for satan'. I no longer have anything to do with these people and sometimes it saddens me still because they weren't like this before. Or maybe they turned their wrath on me when they realised that I really was an atheist.

Who knows..

They do think I am in denial. The gasps of shock and horror that came forth when they started planning the baptism of my child, and I told them that I was not christening my child... it was in fact funny to see the looks on their faces. They were appalled. They still are. My mother in particular is very hurt by this, but I cannot foister something I do not believe in on my own child. The members of my family I keep in contact with now still keep talking about the christening of my yet to be born child even though they know that I am an atheist and will not be baptising the kid. They can't understand how or why I could not. It's their issue to deal with I guess... I am at peace with myself and that's all that matters.

It's just annoying sometimes however because I don't force my atheistic tendencies on them, yet they force their theist beliefs on me. It is a lack of respect for me and it is as though they can't help themselves. So in the meantime I keep on smiling politely and saying 'hmmmmmm' before changing the subject.. ;) .. Until the day I tell them to 'sod off' I suppose.. lol.. ;)
 
I hear you, Bells.
I also came to the sad conclusion in adulthood that I could no longer accept the Catholicism of my youth, and still feel my mother's pain and confusion about my choice. :(
Pete

PS - don't miss the last post on the previous page!
 
Bells:

It's just annoying sometimes however because I don't force my atheistic tendencies on them, yet they force their theist beliefs on me. It is a lack of respect for me and it is as though they can't help themselves...
Click to expand...

Is this not just one of a number of reasons that many of us think theists and christians in particular are dangerous? I've run up against exactly the same thing. Individual people can be nice as pie in secular matters, but once religion comes into it, watch out. I don't think they can help it. Shit, there are thousands (tens of thousands?) of christian missionaries that demonstrate the intent of christianity. Conversion. As a conscientious christian, how could you not care about and want to save the soul of a lost atheist? It's sincere. Which makes it even more dangerous imo.
 
Pete,

from Dawkins article:

despite the hostility of those who misunderstand the humble noun as an arrogant adjective
Click to expand...

I think this could be a serious problem. Most people, especially the people we're trying to impress (theists) will take it that way. I'd bet on it. 'gay' dosen't imply that straight people are somehow worse off. 'Bright' on the other hand does imply that "we are bright, therefore you are... umm... dull?".

Don't know.
 
Pete said:
I hear you, Bells.
I also came to the sad conclusion in adulthood that I could no longer accept the Catholicism of my youth, and still feel my mother's pain and confusion about my choice. :(
Pete

PS - don't miss the last post on the previous page!
Click to expand...
I came to that conclusion in my early teens and even now as an adult, I still see the disappointment on my mother's face. It is almost as if she is saying 'how could you'... as though I have committed a henious act. But deep down, I know she knows I am not that bad a person and she knows I am not a hypocrite. So in that, she has at least one reason to be proud lol.

And Dawkins is correct. Non-believers of any way, shape or form are seen as the pariahs of society. As some are asked 'why?' when they tell others they are atheists, I find it quite interesting when I am asked 'what do you mean?' when I tell people I am an atheist. It is as though I have instantly become sub-human.

The poll mentioned is telling. I have yet to see a politician in the West not proclaim a firm and strong belief in God. Even though their actions speak against what their religion preaches, they only have to say the word 'God' a few times and the majority fall over like dead daisies.

Bear in mind that there are 29 million Americans who describe themselves as nonreligious, secular, atheist, or agnostic, outnumbering Jews tenfold and all other religions except Christianity by an even larger margin.
From your link of Dawkin's article
Click to expand...
The sad part is that many of the people who view themselves as being atheists may find it difficult to vote for another atheist and the figure of only 29% stating they would vote for an atheist tends to possibly show this. It is as though it is something one does not do.


superluminal said:
Individual people can be nice as pie in secular matters, but once religion comes into it, watch out. I don't think they can help it. Shit, there are thousands (tens of thousands?) of christian missionaries that demonstrate the intent of christianity. Conversion. As a conscientious christian, how could you not care about and want to save the soul of a lost atheist? It's sincere. Which makes it even more dangerous imo.
Click to expand...
It is more dangerous. And there are some who would ruin whatever relationship they may have had previously to pursue this need to 'spread the word'. Any resistance or difference of opinion to these people results in a glazed look on their part and they start to go on and on about their particular belief and start saying how good it is, etc. They become irrational and almost panic when they realise that they haven't grabbed your attention. Some become abusive and others just keep droning on and on.

I sometimes think they are attempting to further convert themselves as much as attempting to convert others. I imagine a points system counting down in their brain.. as though each soul converted gets them one step closer to their God.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top