Telepathy, proof and a question for science

ellion said:
QQ:

do you have any ideas why i do not experience SDVs?

i understand if you have nothing to say to me.
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Possibly you have not understood fully what a SDV is?

SDV's are probably our most common generator of conflict. IT is when one person attempts to influence another to act of believe something he or she is not voluntarilly wanting to act or believe.
It is essentially when someone is being pressured to do or think something they simply do not want to do or think.

For example when a man rapes a woman she is experiencing a SDV.
When a man holds a hostage at gunpoint he is perpetrating a SDV.

When a man has plans for his wife that she is unwilling to go along with he is applying pressure that will end up in conflict.

etc etc.

In the context of our discussion:
When an telepath forces someone to listen to what he wants to say is a SDV.
When a telepath listens in on someones thoughts with out permission is also a SDV.
SDV'c can be more benevolent. When a person offers to help when he is not asked for that help, or when a person is given unwanted advice etc etc.

When a person has an ulterior motive behind a question that causes persons to feel suspicious and angry.

Basically when ever you feel an injustice, manipulation, conspiracy, or anything that impinges on your freedom to self determine your future you are experiencing a SDV.

So , obviously it is the most common feeling we get when communicating with soime one else of living in a society of diverse free thinking individuals.

The conflict between mother and 2 year old child in a supermarket [ child screaming and kicking on the floor ]
The conflict of teenagers wanting to rebel against the determination of their parents. Is a symptom of SDV's.
The need for offspring to strike out on their own in early adulthood and the angry attitudes of some of the elderly in nursing homes are all symptomatic of SDV's.

In fact every decision you make is in some way coloured by a SDV.

At a profound telepathic level it is no different except that to be telepathic in a consistantly predictable fashion is impossible due to the inherant SDV's associated. [ or so I contend with the hypothesis at the start of this thread.]

A long time ago I was of the opinion that for humanity to find peace and harmony it need to love more. What I actually realised was that it is not just love that is needed but simply more tolerance. SDV's automatically generate intolerance and are created by intolerance and the reason why they are so difficult to remove is the fact that our sense of freedom or free will is so fundamental to our exstance and we are intolerant of oppression.

Intolerance generates hatred and conflict, anger and aggression.
Tolerance generates Love and compassion, harmony and peace.

Simple equation really ...yes?
Summary:
SDV's occur at all levels of consciousness, whether telepathic or simple communications by conventional means. Even this letter I am posting will generate SDV's. [ intolerance of my opinion]

To say that you are unaffected by SDV's is I believe due to not understanding what an SDV is and I hope I have clarified that for you?

Because telepathy involves our most fundamental willed existance SDV's are a hugely important issue. Most persons suffering mental instabilities such as Schizophrenia in my opinion are showing all the symproms of hyper sensitivity to SDV's at a telepathic level. They are being bombbarded with being told what they should and shouldn't do at a subconscious level which often leads to their aggressive responses to others, even those who are attempting to help them. They are even being forced to conform to what is judged by others to be "normal" behaviour [ which leads to intolerance of "normal" behaviour]
It leads to fear based interpretations of conspiracy theories and voices etc and in extreme cases SDV inspired homicide and suicide.

I believe that when we can accept that these psi SDV's are happening we will be able to offer the right sort of support and therapies but until then we only have another SDV to offer. medication and institutionalisations.
 
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Duendy,
i rather see it as modes of consciousneess....for example our present state is as adequate as other states, and all states are part of a dynamic continuum of potential states...
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Just reading back on earlier posts and I must say I like this approach a lot. :)

Inclusivity rather than exclusivity...........hmmmmmm...
 
QQ, yes this is clearer, i was actually thinking baout alot of things such as those you have given as examples and i was thinking well actually there are so many things which are violations of our SD. so why does our subconscious Safety mechanism not prevent us from being influenced in other ways. why is Subliminal psychology sucesful when it is a SDV. how come suggestion becomes internalised so readily.


about 6:30 this morning i was in bed awake and i was processing the expereinces of my sleep and yesterday evening, a female told me you had nothing to say to me, "he has nothing to say to you". it was a voice that was unfamiliar, the position was to my left and below my matress, i could feel another female presence with her. i asked who she was and she left i sent a "thank you" after her. i logged into the forum about an hour and a half later and i find that you have given a very minimal response, and i understand why.

i give the above only as an example of how i come to my own understanding. perhaps so you understand yourself why i dont give SDV the same power to inhibit. obviously this is not the type of telepathy that the thread is interested in. i realise that your thread is focusing solely on the process of telepathy in an empirical way, and perahps this is why i misunderstood your SDV theory.
 
Quantum Quack said:
Duendy,

Just reading back on earlier posts and I must say I like this approach a lot. :)

Inclusivity rather than exclusivity...........hmmmmmm...
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Yes....and i think the famous psychologist William James said somthing similar----about how our 'usual' consciousness' is just a ine membrane away from other dimension of consciousness----paraphrasing what i remember....But what happened is that in that field it was BEHAVIOURISM which got chosen as the general understanding of human...behaviour. whch totally treated people as machines. again, the measure-trip. looking atpeople 'objectively' and not understanding subjective feeling/inner feeling. either for the observer nor the observed
 
ellion said:
QQ, yes this is clearer, i was actually thinking baout alot of things such as those you have given as examples and i was thinking well actually there are so many things which are violations of our SD. so why does our subconscious Safety mechanism not prevent us from being influenced in other ways. why is Subliminal psychology sucesful when it is a SDV. how come suggestion becomes internalised so readily.


about 6:30 this morning i was in bed awake and i was processing the expereinces of my sleep and yesterday evening, a female told me you had nothing to say to me, "he has nothing to say to you". it was a voice that was unfamiliar, the position was to my left and below my matress, i could feel another female presence with her. i asked who she was and she left i sent a "thank you" after her. i logged into the forum about an hour and a half later and i find that you have given a very minimal response, and i understand why.

i give the above only as an example of how i come to my own understanding. perhaps so you understand yourself why i dont give SDV the same power to inhibit. obviously this is not the type of telepathy that the thread is interested in. i realise that your thread is focusing solely on the process of telepathy in an empirical way, and perahps this is why i misunderstood your SDV theory.
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Ellion,
As you are aware there are many many levels of conscious experience. So far in this thread I have been attempting to address two levels, both extremes in conscious experiences. One is conventional consciousness that most persons take as a given the other is at the other extreme, our base or root consciousness if you like. [ I have no idea what terminology I should use here, although I am sure I could construct something appropriate.]

In between these two extremes are many different levels of what I would call subconsious receptability. Hypnosis is one I guess, however I am dubious of it's ultimate benefit to the client, knowing that when fiddling with the subconscious we run into all sorts of potentials for counter productive reactions and long term impacts that may not necessarilly beneficial. Subliminal messaging using high frequency visual imagery is another, all of which I would never recommend. Ultra low and high sound frequencies are also known to have various impacts and I am sure There are other sensory tricks that can be played.

I get the impression that you are seeking an answer to a question that you are hoping will be provided with out the direct asking.
Possibly I have an answer to a question you have a need to ask but can't?
And possibly you have an answer to a question, a question I have yet to discover?
 
Ellion,
about 6:30 this morning i was in bed awake and i was processing the expereinces of my sleep and yesterday evening, a female told me you had nothing to say to me, "he has nothing to say to you". it was a voice that was unfamiliar, the position was to my left and below my matress, i could feel another female presence with her. i asked who she was and she left i sent a "thank you" after her. i logged into the forum about an hour and a half later and i find that you have given a very minimal response, and i understand why.
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To be frank, I am not at all surprised by this communication. Even though I can't put my finger on it as of now I do know the voice and the entity it belongs to. When reading your post I can hear what you heard. It is very familiar to me yet a memory that is currently blocked.

The answers you seek are not able to be given just yet.....is all I can add to the riddle.
 
i give the above only as an example of how i come to my own understanding. perhaps so you understand yourself why i dont give SDV the same power to inhibit. obviously this is not the type of telepathy that the thread is interested in. i realise that your thread is focusing solely on the process of telepathy in an empirical way, and perahps this is why i misunderstood your SDV theory.
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Ellion, The focus of this thread is about corporal human to corporal human telepathy. Just the basic body to body stuff. Probably the hardest to deal with too I might add.
However you have mentioned willed entities by your bedside. They are also subject to SDV's. In other words if they are self willed they are ..... well....self willed thus self determined thus subject to SDV's like every other self willed entity be it spirit, animal, human, God or Godess.....
 
yes, i think this is where the problem is, because communication is not an violation of self determination unless it is an attempt manipulate, take control or influence against the will of the entity. this is it, communication is communication, by what ever means, and so again i am thinking about the will of the entity involved. the intention of the entity, it is the desire to posses that is the casue of the violation. not the intention to communicate but the intention to manipulate.


I get the impression that you are seeking an answer to a question that you are hoping will be provided with out the direct asking.
Possibly I have an answer to a question you have a need to ask but can't?
And possibly you have an answer to a question, a question I have yet to discover?
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it does feel strange, i have not figured out why yet. perhaps that we have such similar expereinces and we have such totally different perspectives of them. i dont know. it is not important to know.
 
Actually Duendy, You have just reminded me of another more tangible example of this entangled will pheno we are talking about.

If you can recall dancing with a partner together moving to a melody and rhythm.

When starting to dance with someone you fall into sych with that person and as most dancers know this synch is easy to break due to distractions and being over willed. [ trying too hard]

This is actually a good example of how two persons can voluntarilly entangle themsleves.
 
QQ:

You should really come and help ellion out in my thread, "Mental Health and the Existentialists." You may have seen it at one time, i'm sure. But I have recently had some really interesting thoughts about it and this thread (thank you ellion!). I was wondering if you could come to the thread over there. It seems like it is really just a 1 on 1 i need help thread. But it is a lot more than that. Perhaps you could tell us over there something. The thread is open to all sorts of thing, the title shows that. That is what I see relating to this thread.

I was wondering if you could do this, or something.

I understand if you don't want to....

existabrent

(I would like to give some posts here myself about it. But i'm not sure I can do that or not. thx)
 
I think the main thing I am worried about is all of your technical words here. I don't like the words such as: telepathy. Science.

I mean, if you could create this into a science (if this is actually the same thing i'm thinking about), I would really be interested in it. I don't know if we are thinking about the same things. I know ellion probably knows what i'm talking about.

QQ, I think you actually know me a little bit from another thread. I say this because what you may remember of me is something like mental illness, or maybe, something like what we are talking about here or in the MH&existentialists. It is all about this. I wonder what is wrong with me. Maybe I have a problem maybe I don't. Maybe it is related to this maybe it isn't.

I was wondering about how I am having problems with the word "penetrated." And does mental illness have anything to do with these? Maybe this isn't clear. I guess I just wish you to do a lot of work and go to my other thread!

lol -_-
 
Quantum Quack said:
Ellion,
The diagram I first started with a few months ago was this one:
<img src=http://www.ozziesnaps.com/one1.jpg>
It shows that as conscious beings we are aware of time and distance however as unconscious beings time and distance do not exist.
So in essense I was proposing that we are all interconnected via a zero point dimension which we commonly refer to as unconsciousness.

So in brief, when we are in a dream less sleep we are all sharing the same unconsciousness, we become one. However when we wake up or dream we immediately determine that we are separate from each other and everything else thus the entangled state is mitigated by the emergence of awareness.

So waking up means we loose our state of oneness with everything else.
[ As an aside, this is why consciousness is a constant state of sublime sufferance]

However this interconnectedness doesn't dis-appear it is just mitigated or qualified by our subjective awareness of 3 dimensions plus time.

What this means, in breif, is that we are dealing at all times when awake with two planes of existance, one is zero dimensional and the other is 4 dimensional [ inc. time]

Our interconnectedness via this zero point allows us to have a "common" reality, one that has the same rules for every one else but also allows for us to have diversity in our subjective interpretations of that "common" reality.

So all in all we have a shared reality and yet maintain a very private one simultaneously.

In another thread I mentioned a scenario about a safe. [ the sort you store money in]
And how in it's normal state it remains unlocked but as you attempt to open it it locks itself thus dis-allowing you to gain access to it's contents. yet when left alone remains open [ temptation]

The same could be said for telepathy. Once you attempt to do it, it fails however once you relax and it happens as per nature it works, thus telepathy is unpredictable until someone can do it with out trying to do it.

"don't try to do it, just do it" Yoda said to Luke as he attempted to levitate his space ship.

So in my model it become apparent that telepathy can only be proved in hindsight and is not at present able to be mastered as an act of delberate will with any consistancy.

The questioon may come up :
"Why is it we have no proof even after so many years and so much talk?"

As part of the answer I woud reply to this with:

Take for example the discipline of strict Buddhism and how a monk would devote his entire life to achieve this zero point focuss, yet none have been able to sustain this state for longer than a few moments. To have the ability to deliberately and consstantly will a telepathic event in a predicable manner takes enormous discipline and training, much more than any human is currently capable of.

So we are left with hindsight "accidental" evidence and nothing more.
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i was trying to explain this theory ages ago to someone, i have done tests and the results are actually quite interesting if you would look at this for a second please,


over a period of 2 weeks i seceretly tested 6 people, each person was unnaware of the testing 100%, i didnt tell even my partner, and for the first 2 days there was no deep R.E.M dream states with any interesting momments, i asked each person there dreams every day and wrote the results down in turn. on the 3rd night, i had a wierd dream (i wont go into it) and as i found they also all had wierd dreams, and this continued as a pattern consistant through the 2 weeks, we would all have light pleasant dreams, then a night would come when the dreams were very vivid and strange, but they always matched up.


the dreams on a whole did not have anything to do with each other, i would assume that is because everyones mind translates signals differently, but are still all bieng simultaniously effected,

we all all signal recievers it would appear, not bieng able to conciously manipulate the waves/signals but can still half interact with them via unconcious R.E.M dream state,


this is a very interesting theory and i think deserves a further investigation, also i am more concerned with the 90% of our brains we do not conciously use, this could explain alot, the unconcious has more to it than meets the eye i suppose,


i will write back about this at a later date thanks for the input and unnintentional help QQ,

peace,
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
i was trying to explain this theory ages ago to someone, i have done tests and the results are actually quite interesting if you would look at this for a second please,


over a period of 2 weeks i seceretly tested 6 people, each person was unnaware of the testing 100%, i didnt tell even my partner, and for the first 2 days there was no deep R.E.M dream states with any interesting momments, i asked each person there dreams every day and wrote the results down in turn. on the 3rd night, i had a wierd dream (i wont go into it) and as i found they also all had wierd dreams, and this continued as a pattern consistant through the 2 weeks, we would all have light pleasant dreams, then a night would come when the dreams were very vivid and strange, but they always matched up.


the dreams on a whole did not have anything to do with each other, i would assume that is because everyones mind translates signals differently, but are still all bieng simultaniously effected,

we all all signal recievers it would appear, not bieng able to conciously manipulate the waves/signals but can still half interact with them via unconcious R.E.M dream state,


this is a very interesting theory and i think deserves a further investigation, also i am more concerned with the 90% of our brains we do not conciously use, this could explain alot, the unconcious has more to it than meets the eye i suppose,


i will write back about this at a later date thanks for the input and unnintentional help QQ,

peace,
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Che,
Very interesting, thanks for posting your experimental experineces with dreams.

I too have had some incredible experiences with dreams and dreaming. I have some theories that may be of interest but what I wanted to ask is the question that I asked a few years ago:
If you dream a dream that involves someone else do they dream the same dream from their perspective?

I have had dreams where by I am very aware that the other person in that dream is also aware that I am aware etc. A rather strange sense that is I can assure you.

At this stage though I have no anecdotal evidence to support the experience.

The other thing is: We IMO, are always dreaming whether awake or asleep. Most of what we dream is beneath our conscious perception and normally occurs unnoticed in the background of our thoughts. [ seeing that dream is one thing... being that dream is another]
When talking with persons suffering severe post traumatic stress disorder they often coment on the dream like state they appear to be in, that vivid flashes of past recognition occur as the nightmare of their experience is being slowly reconciled in their subconscious mind. Maybe some would consider this as just thinking but I tend to consider it as dreaming.

Every thing I have seen, researched and experienced supports the hypothesis of zero point entanglement whilst allowing for the external sensing to interfere, alter or temper the inner experience.
 
interesting,

i have though about dreams alot over the years and done various tests, i also go into deep meditation trying to mimic dream state while still conscious, i havent quite got there yet but im making good proggress, i have lucid dreams from time to time wich is the most interesng experience i have had, it feels more real than real life if you know what i mean?,

i have come to think that dreaming dosent just show your inner mind, and just simply translate past/present problems/lusts/desires etc, its a unconscious matrix if you like, linking us to a single conscious but as we all have different mapped out minds and brain waves built into us, as unique as a pair of eyes or fignerprint, this means we obviously will pick up the "transmission" differently but feeling the same raw emotions nonetheless,



would you like to conduct a long range experiment with me QQ?, for the next 2 weeks jot down your dreams, we wont concerntrate on the situations or events int he dreams, just concerntrate ont he emotions picked up, and we can compare notes , just date it obviously day by day a little paragraph for each night couple sentances,


it will be interesting to see if it applies to a global level, if more people would take part it could be interesting stuff,



or do it on a shorter scale or longer.


peace,
 
I shall give it some thought. For me however it may interfere with my current disciplines and I have always been a little reluctant to work too much on dreams and dream states. As I have stated in other threads over the years I feel that dreams are an integeral part of our ongoing mental health and need to flow as uninhibited as possible by expectations and desires of the conscious will.
But I will consider it and get back to you.....and I thank you for the offer.
 
Quantum Quack said:
I shall give it some thought. For me however it may interfere with my current disciplines and I have always been a little reluctant to work too much on dreams and dream states. As I have stated in other threads over the years I feel that dreams are an integeral part of our ongoing mental health and need to flow as uninhibited as possible by expectations and desires of the conscious will.
But I will consider it and get back to you.....and I thank you for the offer.
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understood, and no problem.

i have thought about anouther theory that is connected to the unconcsious but not while sleeping, this is during the waking hours, while about your daily buisness when you innteract with other people,

a telepathic connection maybe is best to put it, but not sending direct words but raw emotions through waves of some kind, and this is the explanation to attention seeking possibly, and the underlying reasons behindn why people crave attention subconcsiously,

it might be due to this, when people have there attention focused on anouther person they could be connecting on a sub level, while this sub connection is linked due to both peoples focused mind state, it could make the person feel good, maybe feeding there physical ego and location, also stimulating the one concious with links from the other raw unconscious,


so the more people focused on your link the more emotional signals run through your body and mind,




i will go further into this, at a later point after some replies,


also when you are with somebody and then they start doing something else, (disconnecting from the attention link with your mind) you notice it emotionaly dont you, then you crave the attention to be back and try to seek the attention,


peace.
 
QQ
i was reading a book written in 1888 by hp blavatsky the secret doctine, you may have heard of it. there are versions of the work available online. anyway i came across the phrase ZERO POINT it was inconnection with the egos crossing from personal to impersonal consciousness.

i of course made the connection between your theory and the Zero point in the book and i googled the phrase Zero point, i found this.

http://www.zeropoint.ca/

thought you may like to browse i have not gotten into it yet probaly wont because i have too many other things going
 
ellion said:
QQ
i was reading a book written in 1888 by hp blavatsky the secret doctine, you may have heard of it. there are versions of the work available online. anyway i came across the phrase ZERO POINT it was inconnection with the egos crossing from personal to impersonal consciousness.

i of course made the connection between your theory and the Zero point in the book and i googled the phrase Zero point, i found this.

http://www.zeropoint.ca/

thought you may like to browse i have not gotten into it yet probaly wont because i have too many other things going
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Interesting. My grandmother was a great fan of Blavatsky's work. My grandmother was a strong member of the Theosophical Society that Blavatsky's work inspired into existence.
Here in Melbourne Australia we have a branch with book shop. The Secret Doctrine written by Blavatsky is central to the societies function.
I myself have never even glanced inside it as I found the whole massive work to be rather huge challenge. I am not sure but it must be at least the size of a medium sized encyclopaedia. 8 Books in all I think..not sure though.

I would not be at all surprised if there were similarities between what she has offered and what I am offerring in regards to zero point. Of course the truth is the truth no matter who talks it. So it would be expected that persons would all end up at the same point of truth even if they come at it from different perspectives. Still the same truth afterall.

I believe that if you can handle the sophisticated language that she uses through-out her work, The Secret Doctrine should be a facinating read.
Thanks for the reference, rather serendipitious too I feel.
 
the theospohical society have an online library where all blavatsky's work is available.


http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/tup-onl.htm

an extensive range of works. i would advise to be selective though not all where as well gounded as blavatsky. The Secret Doctrine would make very little sense to anyone who has not a had a grounding in east and west religious thought and some familairity with the deities of all the major religions. this work is to unveil the symbolism and to reveal the powers and principles that are personified by these deities.
 
OK, I have done little reading, and to be frank I am not overly impressed. The work is extremely heavy going and I simply find it to labourous to get into.

I am not too happy about the symbology and feel to much emphasis is placed in areas that offer no real benefit to the reader.

However this is my humble opinion and I do not wish to put people off from at least attemptng to get into it.
 
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