Telepathy, proof and a question for science

[Quantum Quack]

i dont have an interest in remote viewing particularly, my interest is more in the spiritual.

it was more the scientific theory that you presented that made me wonder if your interest in parapsychology was related to RV. i feel that the farsight institute has a very similar theoretical framework to the one you present. they use different terms to describes similar concepts, they also take into consideration QM etc, if you have browsed their site you will have noticed they are a scientific research oranisation and provide many FREE resources for RV training, including full RV courses. as you probably know RV is a discipline which is predictable and provable as a psi phenomena.

my geuss would be that when you dont understand what is happening to you and every one you ask for help thinks your psychotic, every blossoming psychic function is a nightmare to live with.

I have browsed the site and will spend more time researching their services however where I do differ is that I consider "soul" and "spirit" also to be physical pheno. This is where I confuse people the most I guess.

Years ago when first experinecing psi pheno I decided that for it to be real it must be physical. In some ways I was fortifying my belief systems so that I was not lost in this dualistic world of flimsy and substance.
I considered that this reality we share is in fact central to all other planes of existance and that those planes co-existed with in and not without this reality we all share.
I determined about 12 years ago that the bodies nervous system was the linch pin to all these dimensions. That it was our neurology that held it all together as one multi dimensional reality.
So I see many similarities however I do differ on what the definition of "physical" is.

I do not see the dualism that most do although I do understand why dualism is necessary. To me it is all one.
Even the spirit or soul is energy and that energy is physical even if undetectable at present by conventional measuring devices.

The main reason I have avoided reading and researching this topic is that in nearly all cases a dualistic approach is espoused and this I feel corrupts the insights and understandings I have attained.

So all my theories and hypothesis' have been self derived through experinece and a great deal of pro-active thinking.
For example: The website you suggested mentions the desire to learn about God. Yet to me this is the same as learing about yourself. I do not see any distinction between the two concepts. To differentiate spirit from matter [ as deundy has discussed] is to inhibit the truth from being found. So I automatically consider spirit to be material or physical and thus simplifying the thought process accordingly.

As an extension to the thread topic:

I can give one very profound example of why I know Schizophrenia is the outcome of telepathic or psychic confusion. That the voices they hear are not just simply the manifestation of an over active imagination that they are physically yet psychically contrived. That their own voice is split into two thus their will is split into two. So as you can imagine they are in a state of war with their own voice, which has been split into two wills....[.a Self determination violation ]

I was observing a person that I have observed for many months who was in the throws of having an arguement with these so called imaginary voices. He was approximately 40 feet way, yelling abuse and waving his arms and hands about in a very aggressive and threatening fashion. [typical]

I could actually remotely hear the conversation he was having. Both his voice and the secondary voice. I actually attempted to communicate with him using his "imaginary voice" and succeeded in doing so, so much so that he sat down and started a conversation with me [ 30 feet away with no idea where this new voice was coming from]. However the concentration needed on my part was so intense that I had to break contact with in about 3 minutes. Since then this persons behaviour has changed radically, for the better I might add because now he is subconsciously tuned into me and not the aggressive voices he was accustomed to. In fact he has been seen engaging in so called normal behaviour since and most who know of him consider it a small miracle, however they do not know of what transpired between us.

So when persons tell me that telepathy is BS I can only think of all the times it has been proved to me to be other wise.

And yes it is hard to live with the truth amongst those who prefer to be blind to it and are intolerant of it [ another SD violation outcome - Intolerance]

 

[Quantum Quack]

this part of our culture now, something else we must live with.
there is another perspective here, that of the safe. to allow your possesions to be take nout and handled by curious entities, entities that may even want to steal your possesions. this take a great deal of trust and similarly dispassion for the contents of the safe, desirelessness. how do you train such things in the average person. in the culture that we inhabit why would they even want to begin such a training.


this is obviously a big obstacle to growth in the whole area of ESP and PSI, have you considered ways to overcome this?

I have said in other threads that the problem with telepathy is that it must by necessity involve at least two bodies. It is not enough to train just one persons instincts you have to train every ones as well. This of course amounts to making it impossible by conventional means. It can only be achieved by using the psi to train the psi.

A person may be very receptive but others will instinctively shut that person down immediately their instinct determine a threat exists.
The reason I had some success with the psychotic person mentioned above was that he was already under the stress of a SD violation [self determination ] and the violation I created was nothing compared to the violations he was already experiencing. So he was able to allow me to talk to him even if it meant that he could rest for a few moments. Also all those persons that were subconsciously tuned in also allowed me a degree of success due to the philanthropic nature of my desire. Yet as I psi talked with him the psi curiocity of others in what I was doing became stronger and stronger causing me to concentrate harder and harder untill I simply had to break contact.

So from my perspective it is our instinctive reactions that poses the greatest obstacle yet one must appreciate that they also pose our greatest asset for with out them chaos would be the outcome. So the problem of instinctive reaction is both a blessing and an obstacle.

 

[duendy]

Hi QQ, i am really finding your posts very intersting. but i disagreee where you claim that 'spirit/consciousness' is physical.......this isn't me being dulistic, itis just that i am understnding Christian de Quincey's insights aboutt this to be more plausible

for example he argues that spirit/consciousness is ALWAYS WITH atter-energy, precisely because it is how matter-energy FEELS. but altho always togther they are distinct. ie matter-energy even in its most subtle forms. like vibratory waves, is STILL potentially measureable, whereas consciousness is not

this is a really important point i feel, when you loook at materialist philosophy whicy believes it ccan measure even CONSCIOUSNESS--ie., that it will soon 'one day' be able to measure SUBJECTIVE consciousness.....THAt actually, in bio-psychiatry it already believes it CAn measure subjective consciousness objectively, and hence we have the opppressive mental illhess myth!

BUT, if it is realized consciousness cannot be measured in its deepest essence, ten tis shows up the limitations opf materialistic philosophy wit its measuring stick

Al i am saying QQ, isthat in your insistance that spirit can eventually be measured compliments the materialistic ideology, even tho i feel you are not wanting to do such as that

it's important to dig that seeing that spirit/consciosness is distinct from matter-energy is not dualstic. it israther re-insighting the primal understanding of sentience. of Nature being tingling with aliveness
wat IS dualistic are ideologies which state that one side, 'spirit' or 'mater' are the dominant, and notice how materialsim does away entirely with the discarded side

Amreally geeling with your insight how te adherence to left-brained conceptual dominance, how this attitude/coice will atrophy deeper experiential interelationship wi reality. surethey will prod and look through magnifying glass, and so on, but ACTUaL experience of 'other dimensions' will become more and more alien to that mindset

Actually, ironicaly enough, tthe measuring of consciousness, objectively has shown how when one learns a kill, the brain becomes more expansive and skillful for that interest. so eg., playing an instrument, painting, creativity willopen up those areas of thew brain/mind..........lternatively. mathemtaical skills etc will also. therfore any materialist who again and agin trains themselves in that ideology is obviously atrophying other ways of experincing in a deep way. they become too cerebrial/all-in-the-head

so could they say same to me. some here have told me to go read a science book. i would say no. i would say that the forer is VSTLY more important. it is the GROUND. logic is merely a tool. trouble is is when the tool assumes dominance over reality itself, which is what is tragially happening in the world. all deeper sense of feeling is demeaned as being inconsequential by the prevailing materialistic believers

 

[Quantum Quack]

Hi QQ, i am really finding your posts very intersting. but i disagreee where you claim that 'spirit/consciousness' is physical.......this isn't me being dulistic, itis just that i am understnding Christian de Quincey's insights aboutt this to be more plausible

for example he argues that spirit/consciousness is ALWAYS WITH atter-energy, precisely because it is how matter-energy FEELS. but altho always togther they are distinct. ie matter-energy even in its most subtle forms. like vibratory waves, is STILL potentially measureable, whereas consciousness is not

this is a really important point i feel, when you loook at materialist philosophy whicy believes it ccan measure even CONSCIOUSNESS--ie., that it will soon 'one day' be able to measure SUBJECTIVE consciousness.....THAt actually, in bio-psychiatry it already believes it CAn measure subjective consciousness objectively, and hence we have the opppressive mental illhess myth!

BUT, if it is realized consciousness cannot be measured in its deepest essence, ten tis shows up the limitations opf materialistic philosophy wit its measuring stick

Al i am saying QQ, isthat in your insistance that spirit can eventually be measured compliments the materialistic ideology, even tho i feel you are not wanting to do such as that

it's important to dig that seeing that spirit/consciosness is distinct from matter-energy is not dualstic. it israther re-insighting the primal understanding of sentience. of Nature being tingling with aliveness
wat IS dualistic are ideologies which state that one side, 'spirit' or 'mater' are the dominant, and notice how materialsim does away entirely with the discarded side

Amreally geeling with your insight how te adherence to left-brained conceptual dominance, how this attitude/coice will atrophy deeper experiential interelationship wi reality. surethey will prod and look through magnifying glass, and so on, but ACTUaL experience of 'other dimensions' will become more and more alien to that mindset

Actually, ironicaly enough, tthe measuring of consciousness, objectively has shown how when one learns a kill, the brain becomes more expansive and skillful for that interest. so eg., playing an instrument, painting, creativity willopen up those areas of thew brain/mind..........lternatively. mathemtaical skills etc will also. therfore any materialist who again and agin trains themselves in that ideology is obviously atrophying other ways of experincing in a deep way. they become too cerebrial/all-in-the-head

so could they say same to me. some here have told me to go read a science book. i would say no. i would say that the forer is VSTLY more important. it is the GROUND. logic is merely a tool. trouble is is when the tool assumes dominance over reality itself, which is what is tragially happening in the world. all deeper sense of feeling is demeaned as being inconsequential by the prevailing materialistic believers

Duendy,
You touch upon the issue of logical truth vs actual truth. In a lot of ways logic is merely a form of rational speculation. It can achieve the pseudo-understanding of truths but is not capable of providing the experience of those truths.

The reason I require experience to be my teacher is that it is only through experience that the truth can be realised as something more than just a logical speculation. We tend, as you have rightly pointed out, to rely too heavilly on logical speculation, and in doing so loose the ability to see the truth and we can only see the truth that is percieved as logical. Yet so much truth is illogical waiting patiently to become logical [ to us]

I have argued this case before with the "Prince " of logic [ Prince James please forgive me ha]
Many aspects of reality are at present illogical. In fact the mere fact that reality exists at all is rooted in what is currently percieved as illogicality. For all this to have come from nothing is truely sciences greatest paradox and yet once the logic is learned it is not longer apparently illogical but very logical . In fact reality must exist and not just because it is some sort of universal convenience but as a matter of physical necessity.

So if we make logic our master then we shall only see that which is logical and ignore that which isn't. So yes I agree with you on how the materialist has built a significant barrier around himself with his demand that everything that is observed be logical even before that logic is able to be understood.

As to your other concern I am not concerned if I seem to offer support for the dualism of matter/spirit. I have clearly stated that I consider all of existance to be physical in nature, whether that be spirit, consciouness etc. Being physical does not necessarilly mean that is can be measured. For example I believe consciousness to be an effect that has physical causation. Once the infinitely variable causation has been measured then maybe we have measured consciousness by default. [ in other words it is impossibe to measure due to the infinite nature of all that silly measuring]
Any way this is not really a concern of mine as I am more interested in devloping ideas that may in the future be of benefit in the understanding of experiences that are evolving for me and others.

Btw u may have noticed that in nearly all cases I do not attempt to change a persons beliefs. I have no desire to change yours or any one elses beliefs. I learned along time ago that to do so only leads to uneccessary conflict. I can only state what I believe and know and let the reader judge for himself what if any of my words, are of worth to them. So as a matter of policy I can not join you in your quest to confront the polarised thinking and beliefs of others.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Duendy,

for example he argues that spirit/consciousness is ALWAYS WITH atter-energy, precisely because it is how matter-energy FEELS. but altho always togther they are distinct. ie matter-energy even in its most subtle forms. like vibratory waves, is STILL potentially measureable, whereas consciousness is not

I agree that the universe has "soul" so to speak, however this is an area that I have had limited exposure to and am yet not confident enough to comment to much on.

For example there is no doubt to me that the Earth gives the impression of being feminine, the sun gives the impression of being masculine and the moon gives the impression of being a prepubescent [ asexual] sibling of the two. However these are to me just impressions or feelings about these particular bodies of mass and are more conversational than philosophy or physics.

I do though loosely believe that the Earth is it self a living entity with feelings and even perception, however sentience is a question I would rather put aside for now.
Of course if the Earth feels to be living then so to does the rest of the universe.
It is possible that we are an expression of earth/sun life force, that we reflect the soul that is s-he as an expression of he-r.
But this is more poetry and metaphour than anything else.

 

[duendy]

Duendy,


I agree that the universe has "soul" so to speak, however this is an area that I have had limited exposure to and am yet not confident enough to comment to much on.

me)))))nothing stopping you speculating, hypothesizing, using imagination

For example there is no doubt to me that the Earth gives the impression of being feminine, the sun gives the impression of being masculine and the moon gives the impression of being a prepubescent [ asexual] sibling of the two. However these are to me just impressions or feelings about these particular bodies of mass and are more conversational than philosophy or physics.

me))))))paltho the concept of the Earth as feminine--ie., 'Mother Earth' is a very anceint iea, i am more into ambiguity. not separating male from female

I do though loosely believe that the Earth is it self a living entity with feelings and even perception, however sentience is a question I would rather put aside for now.

me))))))i wouod ask, what IS 'Earth'..isn't it a dynmic collage of ecosystems all intelligent and interelated ly in balance/disequilibrium?

Of course if the Earth feels to be living then so to does the rest of the universe.
It is possible that we are an expression of earth/sun life force, that we reflect the soul that is s-he as an expression of he-r.
But this is more poetry and metaphour than anything else.

I believe mythology in its origins, was pre-literate ad involved more tan text, song, and poetry, and associative understanding of the likeness between things
So for example, the snake comes to represent the changing cycles of Nature becayse it seems to keep forever young by sloughing off its skin. likewise so does life. body gets old, dies, and new life is regeneration......also serpent represnts spine and the life force/'kundaline'--as supposed energy that lies usually coiled at base of spine but under certian circumstances can awaken and move upo the spine to heah and all parts of body so as to activate ecstatic experince.....snke can also represent the mushroom, especially te sacred mushroom, because like te mushroom it emerges phalliclike from a hole in the Earth, and some snakes have an hallucinogenic 'poison' in their bite.....and snakes move like wter, etc etc etc. so you can see just from te one creature all the associations associated with it. same with 'Tree' and 'Water' etc

i see no harm in thie whente associational understanding bonds one with Nature. i find tis preliterate understandng, and insight much more fruitful than te most analytical, scientifically method measured
mathematically calculated 'proof-truth'; that a rock is precisely 'xyz' and thats that, and tat tere is no evidence it is alive, ,,,,,,,because that 'evidence' deadens --from then on--your RELATIONSHIP with that rock, tree, snake....whatever. and it des this in a very decisive way. do u see?
This despite that you personally MAy have a deep experience wit realityl. yet the mscientists will sy, no it cant be because our evidence says such and such

what they mean is, their OBJECTIVE evidence!....we are not puttig that down. of courst such knowledge is sacred also. BUT we also are experiences.........and to experience rock on a more deeper personal level/dimension we have to not doismiss SUBJECTIVE awareness which reaches out from deep within to deep within

 

[ellion]

Years ago when first experinecing psi pheno I decided that for it to be real it must be physical. In some ways I was fortifying my belief systems so that I was not lost in this dualistic world of flimsy and substance.
... ...

I do not see the dualism that most do although I do understand why dualism is necessary. To me it is all one.
Even the spirit or soul is energy and that energy is physical even if undetectable at present by conventional measuring devices.

ice, water and steam are the same substance in different states. we should call them what they are at the level we expereince them. mostly people are seeing things from different perspectives, for me all is an expression of spirit. i have no porblem with diualistic terms. it is easier for me tos ay my body is physical and my soul is spirit, neither is absolutley true, neither is false but both suffice for a purpose.

I considered that this reality we share is in fact central to all other planes of existance and that those planes co-existed with in and not without this reality we all share.

did you ever here how the centre of the circle is everywhere but the circumference is nowhere found?

That the voices they hear are not just simply the manifestation of an over active imagination that they are physically yet psychically contrived. That their own voice is split into two thus their will is split into two. So as you can imagine they are in a state of war with their own voice, which has been split into two wills....[.a Self determination violation ]

very interesting but i feel there are other phenomena which are not expelained by this. your example with [the patient?]you observed is great too, i can see how that would work.

I can only think of all the times it has been proved to me to be other wise.

me too, i have a lot of personal expereince that i have come to understand and appreciate as a very specail gift.

I have said in other threads that the problem with telepathy is that it must by necessity involve at least two bodies. It is not enough to train just one persons instincts you have to train every ones as well.

do you think this would apply to listening too. hearing, clairaudience?

This of course amounts to making it impossible by conventional means. It can only be achieved by using the psi to train the psi.

then how would you train a trainer? it is an interesting idea though and i wonder if this was arrived at through expereince or by pro-active thinking?

A person may be very receptive but others will instinctively shut that person down immediately their instinct determine a threat exists.

this would take me back to the metaphor of the safe, where the entity was not a threat would the safe close? i don ot feel it would. perhaps if the entity was about teaching you psi would that shut you down? from what you have told me there have been experiences for you wher you have not been closed down? was that because there was no other entity involved or because the entity involved was truely benevolent?

So from my perspective it is our instinctive reactions that poses the greatest obstacle yet one must appreciate that they also pose our greatest asset for with out them chaos would be the outcome. So the problem of instinctive reaction is both a blessing and an obstacle.

yes i agree, i believe are culture is to blame for this but i also believe that if we can continue to work in the light and bring that higher vibration down until the light illumnies even the darkest recess. i will stop my poetic rambling there i think you will understand my intent on that line.

 

[Quantum Quack]

ice, water and steam are the same substance in different states. we should call them what they are at the level we expereince them. mostly people are seeing things from different perspectives, for me all is an expression of spirit. i have no porblem with diualistic terms. it is easier for me tos ay my body is physical and my soul is spirit, neither is absolutley true, neither is false but both suffice for a purpose.

I find this to be a sensible position.

did you ever here how the centre of the circle is everywhere but the circumference is nowhere found?

I like this . It reminds me of my attempts to desribe the nature of gravity in the physics forum. Using an Inverse sphere as the geometric nature of it.

<img src=http://www.ozziesnaps.com/invsphere11.jpg>

 

[Quantum Quack]

Ellion,

“ That the voices they hear are not just simply the manifestation of an over active imagination that they are physically yet psychically contrived. That their own voice is split into two thus their will is split into two. So as you can imagine they are in a state of war with their own voice, which has been split into two wills....[.a Self determination violation ] ”

very interesting but i feel there are other phenomena which are not expelained by this. your example with [the patient?]you observed is great too, i can see how that would work.

No it is not supposed to explain all pheno, but merely suggest a hyposthesis for the fundamental nature of what we are discussing. The mechanics if you like of telepathy and by extension collective universal consciousness and imagination. How is this collective achieved and by what mechanism.

“ I can only think of all the times it has been proved to me to be other wise. ”

me too, i have a lot of personal expereince that i have come to understand and appreciate as a very specail gift.

To some unfortunately it is necessarilly a special "Night mare" as well. Compounded by the fact that their experiences are discounted as delusionary by the very persons they turn to for help. After all committing a person to a life were by their power of attorney is removed from [institutionalisation] them is the ultimate in Self determination violations yes?

“ I have said in other threads that the problem with telepathy is that it must by necessity involve at least two bodies. It is not enough to train just one persons instincts you have to train every ones as well. ”

do you think this would apply to listening too. hearing, clairaudience?

Given that you are never the only person listening and reacting to what you hear yes, it does apply to clairaudience as well. Remember it is the unpredictive nature of these pheno that is being discussed. [ this thread ]
It means that when things are appropriately relaxed and everything is in concordance [ prepared to allow and event to occur] that these abilities seem to show themselves, However to do so predictably means that our wills are forcing something to occur when it may not be possible to do so.

“ This of course amounts to making it impossible by conventional means. It can only be achieved by using the psi to train the psi. ”

then how would you train a trainer? it is an interesting idea though and i wonder if this was arrived at through expereince or by pro-active thinking?

This prompts a line of memories that may be one day I will share in public
However to say that the universe is a tremendous teacher would be an understatement [ Even scientists and physicists will agree ]. But it is worth noting that the teacher does not necessarilly care how much suffering those lessons generate in the student.
Those lessons do require both experience and a whole heap of pro-active thought. The suffering gerenated providing the incentive to work towards solutions. Unfortunately the suffering can be so intense that the lesson is lost until the suffering is tempored with undertstanding and then reflexes are trained to prevent that suffering from re-occuring thus the lessons involve suffering and learning how not to suffer. [ learning to live with your natural abilities aint easy sometimes]

I might add that this method is no different to that which occurs in normal life for all persons however in this case it is a deeper psychic sufference which employs amongst many things, self determination violations as it's main method of sufference. In other words the lessons are not voluntarilly entered into initially. The path is not an easy one, I can state that without any doubt what so ever.

“ A person may be very receptive but others will instinctively shut that person down immediately their instinct determine a threat exists. ”

this would take me back to the metaphor of the safe, where the entity was not a threat would the safe close? i don ot feel it would. perhaps if the entity was about teaching you psi would that shut you down? from what you have told me there have been experiences for you wher you have not been closed down? was that because there was no other entity involved or because the entity involved was truely benevolent?

This strikes at the very heart of the issue. We humans are very special in the sense that we are very capable of being individual and unique. We are able to step out of the group or hive mentality and act independantly of others. Our sense of freewill is incredibly special and also incredibly sensitive.
Any teacher must by the nature of these attributes violate a persons self determination in the process of communication, so that even if the teacher were absolutely benign he would either be ignored or felt as a threat to your Self determination.
This of course extends to religious sentiment where by God speaks to no one and only attempt so show his involvement by more "cryptic" means. Dealing in irony and coincedence seems to be the only way that God can communicate to the student as any other more overt methods necessarilly cause these SD violations. How often God has been claimed to be the Devil simply because the person "possessed" is in fear of their self determination?

Yet that same person will at another time claim that he is communing with God and them a few seconds later feel it is the devil instead....etc etc....

It is easy to see that if one considers the sensitivity to SD violations is so profound that the paranoia created blind the sufferer to a state of insanity.

There are many famous examples of this SD problem at work and would take many threads and posts to even explore the superficial.

I am not claiming with the above the existance of "God" or the "Devil" I am merely pointing our how SD violations and the fear that they provoke can generate these types of interpretations. Due to ignorance most persons would feel that if they were communicating telepathically that it would be with a higher being such as God or the Devil when in fact it could be with their best friend but because of the SD violatiuon involved that best friend is now the enemy.

So the only way to succeed in this area of interest is to understand fully what SD violations actually are and de-sensitise and tolerate them comfortably.

[ this is the sort of therapy that is needed in psychiatric hospitals and out patient treatments etc. IMO]

“ So from my perspective it is our instinctive reactions that poses the greatest obstacle yet one must appreciate that they also pose our greatest asset for with out them chaos would be the outcome. So the problem of instinctive reaction is both a blessing and an obstacle. ”

yes i agree, i believe are culture is to blame for this but i also believe that if we can continue to work in the light and bring that higher vibration down until the light illumnies even the darkest recess. i will stop my poetic rambling there i think you will understand my intent on that line.

If it is kept in mind the the "light" can be seen as negative [SD violation] if not wanted or understood then greater success would be possible.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I believe mythology in its origins, was pre-literate ad involved more tan text, song, and poetry, and associative understanding of the likeness between things
So for example, the snake comes to represent the changing cycles of Nature becayse it seems to keep forever young by sloughing off its skin. likewise so does life. body gets old, dies, and new life is regeneration......also serpent represnts spine and the life force/'kundaline'--as supposed energy that lies usually coiled at base of spine but under certian circumstances can awaken and move upo the spine to heah and all parts of body so as to activate ecstatic experince.....snke can also represent the mushroom, especially te sacred mushroom, because like te mushroom it emerges phalliclike from a hole in the Earth, and some snakes have an hallucinogenic 'poison' in their bite.....and snakes move like wter, etc etc etc. so you can see just from te one creature all the associations associated with it. same with 'Tree' and 'Water' etc

i see no harm in thie whente associational understanding bonds one with Nature. i find tis preliterate understandng, and insight much more fruitful than te most analytical, scientifically method measured
mathematically calculated 'proof-truth'; that a rock is precisely 'xyz' and thats that, and tat tere is no evidence it is alive, ,,,,,,,because that 'evidence' deadens --from then on--your RELATIONSHIP with that rock, tree, snake....whatever. and it des this in a very decisive way. do u see?
This despite that you personally MAy have a deep experience wit realityl. yet the mscientists will sy, no it cant be because our evidence says such and such

what they mean is, their OBJECTIVE evidence!....we are not puttig that down. of courst such knowledge is sacred also. BUT we also are experiences.........and to experience rock on a more deeper personal level/dimension we have to not doismiss SUBJECTIVE awareness which reaches out from deep within to deep within

"tis funny I have often suggested that it is only when we can stop talking that we can learn to listen.

Our minds are so busy with words and symbols we often forget that our lives consist of impressions, intuition and instincts and things that are more than just symbols and language

One of the reasons why meditation is so benificial is that when we learn to quiten our hyper active intellects and diminish our reliance on logic we can actyually give oursleves teh time to just sense with out overly dissemminating and discriminating and comparing what it is we sense.

The amount of truth out there that is available when we are able to listen for it and to it is truelly amazing. But to do so we need to stop our inner talking and analysis.

Years before languages were formalised persons had only feeling and senses to interpret the universe with and in doing so "saw" many truths that are unable to be seen today simply because we don't have the time to "look" properly.

To learn how to relax that mental voice box and sit quietly sensing your environment woudl be one of the greatest lessons one can learn in todays high paced living.

I am not suggesting that we should dump our rationalising and objective pursuits but merely suggesting that the need to find a balance is ever increasing as our intellect grows and our logic skills evolve.

Ha..... I am starting to sound like a real "new ager" ha.

So much of these truths are so subtle and fleeting that to recognise them is almost impossible if that recognition is cluttered with so many lies.

Take for example the discovery of particle entanglement.
I wonder how many times this pheno has been observed but discounted simply because current thought would dis-allow it's existance.

"Ahh that can't be right " the physicist says to himself, as he rationalises Special Relativity Theory with his observation.

The pheno is ignored until later when someone is more prepared to accept that the current theories we have are still far from complete. and has an open mind to further completing those theories. So with the risk of wasting his time he starts to look at the pheno of particle entaglement and well, something so subtle is finaly discovered to actually be real.

I can imagine just how subtle this pheno is.

Then to go on and prove it in such a ridgid evidencial mind set is rather extraordinary, and I must admit I am impressed that this pheno has been found and evidenced given that science dis-allows FTL [ Faster than light communications] and simultaneity [ absolute time ], so strongly.

 

[LeeDa]

What if telepathy is not actual voice to voice communication or communication at all? I rekon telepathy at our current time is used to send genetic imformation to others so that it can be coded. Once a certain amount of coding has been done then 2 way voice to voice communication will begin. When genetic imformation to be coded is sent to another person it intergrates as their thoughts and is indistinguishable from their own thoughts. You simply believe it was you who thought something when really it came from a burst of genetic imformation sent to you that has to be coded. By coding the genetics that someone has sent to you you actually code your own faster so it actually benefits both individuals. Theres a kinda money system to where you earn for the coding of other people that you do. This is spent on obtaining more coding to be done for yourself by others. You are of course constantly coding your own genetics all the time. Every single thought you have is actually all coding at its base. Maybe some people have already had enough genetics coded and they are able to send telepathic communications but the other person would not be able to respond as they don't have the coding done yet. I think the communication the not enough coded person would hear would just show up as there own thoughts and not be distingusiable as someone elses voice as they don't have the coding to convert the message. Also the original message from the sender is altered and changed because thats all the current coding level of the reciever is able to do with it. There are protocals TCP/IP etc just like computers. Telepathy is all about genetics. Life is all about coding genetics.

 

[ellion]

The mechanics if you like of telepathy and by extension collective universal consciousness and imagination. How is this collective achieved and by what mechanism.

my thought is that collective universal consciousness and the imagination ARE the mechanics of telepathy, perhaps not THE complete machine but a damn good working model. probably the best we can do from our position within the current world/cosmic consciousness.

To some unfortunately it is necessarilly a special "Night mare" as well. Compounded by the fact that their experiences are discounted as delusionary by the very persons they turn to for help. After all committing a person to a life were by their power of attorney is removed from [institutionalisation] them is the ultimate in Self determination violations yes?

indeed, it is a blessing that we learn quickly who we can trust and know when it is best to keep our mouths shut.

Given that you are never the only person listening and reacting to what you hear yes, it does apply to clairaudience as well. Remember it is the unpredictive nature of these pheno that is being discussed. [ this thread ]
It means that when things are appropriately relaxed and everything is in concordance [ prepared to allow and event to occur] that these abilities seem to show themselves, However to do so predictably means that our wills are forcing something to occur when it may not be possible to do so.

i suppose i should take your word as i have never tried or needed to predict, for me it is not about evidence but expereince.
i wondered if you have put your own menatl blocks on your expereimnts by exagerating the SDV. are your concentrations towards overcoming the SDV problem rather than being open, alert and receptive "not trying, just doing"

This prompts a line of memories that may be one day I will share in public
...
...
The path is not an easy one, I can state that without any doubt what so ever.

i understand, i think perahps we had the same teacher.

Any teacher must by the nature of these attributes violate a persons self determination in the process of communication, so that even if the teacher were absolutely benign he would either be ignored or felt as a threat to your Self determination

i would like to work this out with you as best as we can without revealing those personal subjective aspects that are not for public scrutiny.
you see for me those SDVs do not happen. i am unsure why you give them so much consideration.

This of course extends to religious sentiment where by God speaks to no one and only attempt so show his involvement by more "cryptic" means. Dealing in irony and coincedence seems to be the only way that God can communicate to the student as any other more overt methods necessarilly cause these SD violations.

i dont feel this i necessarily so, there are no SDVs in my communion. that may have something to do with my approach to the divine. i do not see how if people are able to accept coincidence and irony as a communion why consider more direct intervention as a violation. how is it determined what is SDV and what is not. is it only SDV if it is internal communication.

myself i will discern between internal and external communication. i also differentiate between types of internal communication those which are psychic are intuitonal and those which are spiritual are the higher forms of Clear auditory and visual communications.

So the only way to succeed in this area of interest is to understand fully what SD violations actually are and de-sensitise and tolerate them comfortably.

perhaps this is why i do not feel them i am happy sharing my mind.

[ this is the sort of therapy that is needed in psychiatric hospitals and out patient treatments etc. IMO]

this is another of my interests an educational pursuit and something i am motivated towards because of my own experience with a poor and failing system.

If it is kept in mind the the "light" can be seen as negative [SD violation] if not wanted or understood then greater success would be possible.

there is always something positive too share with people. Light does not have to be God or Love or anything Magickal. Light is nothing but illumination, it is just something that chases away the darkness it helps us to see who we are, where we have been and where we are going.

 

[ellion]

I like this . It reminds me of my attempts to desribe the nature of gravity in the physics forum. Using an Inverse sphere as the geometric nature of it.

<img src=http://www.ozziesnaps.com/invsphere11.jpg>

that looks like a very common religious symbol. i also see how it has a gravitational representation. that is clear.

you metioned our plane being central to the planes above and below did you understadn what i meant by the centre of the circle is everywhere and the circumference is nowhere found? it is a simple metaphor for a continuum in all directions. north, south, east, west, above, below, internal, external.

 

[Quantum Quack]

would like to work this out with you as best as we can without revealing those personal subjective aspects that are not for public scrutiny.
you see for me those SDVs do not happen. i am unsure why you give them so much consideration.

It is the level or depth of my experience that makes SDV's a very important aspect of my work and existance. It is the self determination and freewill of others [ including the spirit and other dimensionals] and myself that is one of my psi specialities.
The reasons I don't air my experiences fully in public is that the truth is for most person impossible to comprehend, with out extensive contextual preparation. And it is the experience of the truth and not just the talking of the truth that is necessary. So I refain from gettng too involved in worded descriptions simply because they fail to achieve much any way and distract from the greater purpose occurng in the background.

 

[Quantum Quack]

What if telepathy is not actual voice to voice communication or communication at all? I rekon telepathy at our current time is used to send genetic imformation to others so that it can be coded. Once a certain amount of coding has been done then 2 way voice to voice communication will begin. When genetic imformation to be coded is sent to another person it intergrates as their thoughts and is indistinguishable from their own thoughts. You simply believe it was you who thought something when really it came from a burst of genetic imformation sent to you that has to be coded. By coding the genetics that someone has sent to you you actually code your own faster so it actually benefits both individuals. Theres a kinda money system to where you earn for the coding of other people that you do. This is spent on obtaining more coding to be done for yourself by others. You are of course constantly coding your own genetics all the time. Every single thought you have is actually all coding at its base. Maybe some people have already had enough genetics coded and they are able to send telepathic communications but the other person would not be able to respond as they don't have the coding done yet. I think the communication the not enough coded person would hear would just show up as there own thoughts and not be distingusiable as someone elses voice as they don't have the coding to convert the message. Also the original message from the sender is altered and changed because thats all the current coding level of the reciever is able to do with it. There are protocals TCP/IP etc just like computers. Telepathy is all about genetics. Life is all about coding genetics.

At first glance this seems to be a little how should I say it......hmmmmm....out there...hey .....but then again so is this entire thread....ha.

However the notion that thoughts can be seen as proprietry and non proprietry [ yours and someone elses] and often the distinction between the two is obscured by the day to day prattle that goes on, is quite an interestng one.

It touches upon the notion of originality and creativity. Can anything be said to be truely original? Or is what we consider original merey the adaptation of old concepts that is simply waiting to be discovered.

Thus the question: Is discovery and originality the same thing?

It is of my opinoin that each of us is a collage of everyone else that we have ever expereinced and other more sublime entities that we haven't had direct connections with.
We are but a mere mirror that evolves in what it reflects. The only thing we have proprietry over is the mirror [ our bodies ] and not what the mirror reflects.

 

[ellion]

QQ:

do you have any ideas why i do not experience SDVs?

i understand if you have nothing to say to me.

 

[leopold]

What if telepathy is not . . .

this very same post appears in "telepathy" this forum

 

[leopold]

do you have any ideas why i do not experience SDVs?

what is a SDV?

 

[ellion]

leo:
Self Determination Violation

 

[leopold]

i was going to say
spiritualy divine vision
i'm glad i didn't