Telepathy, proof and a question for science

[Quantum Quack]

I have a hypothesis as to the physical or material nature of telepathy, that involve physics yet to be understood. Involving the nature of time and distance, dimensionality and the illusion of 3 dimensional space.

However at present this understanding is way ahead of us and when finally understood a uniform theory of everything [TOE] would be achieved.

In other threads I have posted a diagram just to wet the appetite as to the mechanics of universal consciousness and I shall post it again here just as a matter of curiosity.

<img src=http://www.ozziesnaps.com/Ozziewebworkings/higs.gif>

The diagram refers to zero dimensionalism that is common to every thing that exists. That everything is in a zero distance and time relationship via a zero point [ nothing ness] as with particle entanglement [QM] we all share an entangled relationship.

However as we are self animated we break or more precisely mitigate that entanglement as soon as we are aware of it. Usually Fear and a conflict of interest causes the entanglement [ telepathic relationship ] to become broken [ altered ] as we automatically attempt to effect the entangled person once we are aware of that relationship at this level. Thus telepathy or more precisely the telepathic relationship, can only be proved in hindsight and not predicted.

One thing that seems to be confused is that telepathy invloves the instincts of at least two people but in absolute it involves the instincts of every thing that has them universally. So as I suggested earlier it is impossible to read a persons mind if their instincts prevent you from doing so. A bit like farting in a crowded elevator and pretending it aint you that done it. You hide your complicity mentally and physically thus no one in the elevator can determine the source of the dreadful smell.

Summary:
Telepathy can only be proven in hindsight and is currently unpredictive. Simply because awareness of a conscious attempt immediately causes the entanglement to be broken [ see particle entanglement in QM]

As yet it has proven almost impossible to shield two persons from ouside instinctive interference.

OK, so we have a hypothesis as to why it has proven to be impossible to demonstrate predictive telepathy.

And as hindsight proof is deemed unacceptable to science we have an impasse as to the validity of the notion.
Science requires predictability which by nature requires fore-sight and as explained this is impossible given the current state of instinctive fear based responses.

However the big philosophical question is:
Does the lack of predictability make the hindsight evidence invalid?

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

in my opinion it does not make it totally invalid, but predictability isnt predictable so that limits science to always outruling the possibilities that could be true,


we need a body to examine before this is taken seriously in the scientific community, to acknowledge what is seen as witchcraft will scare most respectable scientists away, just because of there human ego, if scientists parted with there huge egos then they wouldent worry about who thinks what about them and who thinks there crazy etc,


think circles think unlimited possibilities,


nice post, i like your diagram threads like the taoist trap, (if that was yours i think it was)


peace.

 

[duendy]

Hey, QQ, meant to say in the other telepathy thread how muh i like your theory. but anyhow i am saying it here

the KEY i recokon is the understanding that matter-energy is sentient

so for exmple, not ONLY another human being can onepotentially commune with in a telepathid way, but also an animal, a plany, a rock, etc

you see, the materialist, with his sci-method limited to hismaterialistic expectations will see the, eg., 'rock' and will E X P L A I N it. for example, ask tem 'what IS a rock?' and they will leaf thru the current materiasltic 'objective' state of the art info, and that is that. they are understading this from an 'OBJECTIFIST@ standpoint.......for them rock is a 'dead' thing' even tho QM has shown it is a bubbling event, still the 'event' is seen s a mecnacial event and in no way related on a deep level. cept maybe as 'actualized' by the measurement of consciousess

BUT when we begin exploring that.....we are sentient, as are our bodies, every sell, every atom, etc,,,,,AND the space in between and around us and the rock, AND the rock, thenthings become more alive with potentiality
However, as you insight--IF the person sticks to the 'objectivist' matrx, and creates an impass-like 'scientific method' which 'proves' their materialsitcassertions, and the whole intellectul, institutional man-made environment opresses with tis ideology, then it is much more strained for any understanding about this to be encouraged

so, riiiiight on QQ, keep up the good work

 

[ellion]

QQ i dont get this theory at all.

could you explain your diagram?

 

[Quantum Quack]

in my opinion it does not make it totally invalid, but predictability isnt predictable so that limits science to always outruling the possibilities that could be true,


we need a body to examine before this is taken seriously in the scientific community, to acknowledge what is seen as witchcraft will scare most respectable scientists away, just because of there human ego, if scientists parted with there huge egos then they wouldent worry about who thinks what about them and who thinks there crazy etc,


think circles think unlimited possibilities,


nice post, i like your diagram threads like the taoist trap, (if that was yours i think it was)


peace.

Just to be clear, The taoist trap thread was started by Wesmorris, which I enjoyed participating in. I felt that his diagram failed to show the inner relationship with have with reality. It was a great thread and a credit to all those who participated.

I realy have no expectation of scientific acceptance of this hypothesis at this stage given the inability to qualify and quantify it in mathematical terms etc etc.
However as a philosophy that suggests a model for collective consciousness thus sentience thus "The Physics of God" [ a book I am currently attempting to write] I think it may prove very useful in the future.

What it essentially means is that at all times we are all connected via this zero point and it is only when we become aware of this connection that this connection looses it's usual harmonious result.

Look people are people. We are always trying to tell someone else what to do, you should do this, you should do that etc etc. We are as part of our nature wanting to control and manipulate each other. Of course as soon as we try to do this the "victim" arcs up and flexes their self determination muscles and conflict naturally ensues.
The realm of telepathy is no different to what you see around you. People argueing and fighting over what each of us "should" be doing, saying and thinking.
So as far as I can tell until we manage our desire to control and manipulate each other, telepathy will not be predictable and certainly only be useful in creating conflict.

 

[Quantum Quack]

QQ i dont get this theory at all.

could you explain your diagram?

Ellion,
The diagram I first started with a few months ago was this one:
<img src=http://www.ozziesnaps.com/one1.jpg>
It shows that as conscious beings we are aware of time and distance however as unconscious beings time and distance do not exist.
So in essense I was proposing that we are all interconnected via a zero point dimension which we commonly refer to as unconsciousness.

So in brief, when we are in a dream less sleep we are all sharing the same unconsciousness, we become one. However when we wake up or dream we immediately determine that we are separate from each other and everything else thus the entangled state is mitigated by the emergence of awareness.

So waking up means we loose our state of oneness with everything else.
[ As an aside, this is why consciousness is a constant state of sublime sufferance]

However this interconnectedness doesn't dis-appear it is just mitigated or qualified by our subjective awareness of 3 dimensions plus time.

What this means, in breif, is that we are dealing at all times when awake with two planes of existance, one is zero dimensional and the other is 4 dimensional [ inc. time]

Our interconnectedness via this zero point allows us to have a "common" reality, one that has the same rules for every one else but also allows for us to have diversity in our subjective interpretations of that "common" reality.

So all in all we have a shared reality and yet maintain a very private one simultaneously.

In another thread I mentioned a scenario about a safe. [ the sort you store money in]
And how in it's normal state it remains unlocked but as you attempt to open it it locks itself thus dis-allowing you to gain access to it's contents. yet when left alone remains open [ temptation]

The same could be said for telepathy. Once you attempt to do it, it fails however once you relax and it happens as per nature it works, thus telepathy is unpredictable until someone can do it with out trying to do it.

"don't try to do it, just do it" Yoda said to Luke as he attempted to levitate his space ship.

So in my model it become apparent that telepathy can only be proved in hindsight and is not at present able to be mastered as an act of delberate will with any consistancy.

The questioon may come up :
"Why is it we have no proof even after so many years and so much talk?"

As part of the answer I woud reply to this with:

Take for example the discipline of strict Buddhism and how a monk would devote his entire life to achieve this zero point focuss, yet none have been able to sustain this state for longer than a few moments. To have the ability to deliberately and consstantly will a telepathic event in a predicable manner takes enormous discipline and training, much more than any human is currently capable of.

So we are left with hindsight "accidental" evidence and nothing more.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Btw the hypothesis is a part of a large body of work that is not expected to be explained in full with just a few posts. A bit of a journey has to be taken to grasp it's full context.
Also particle entanglement pheno is only just being presented as evidenced in the scientific community so it will take some time for the dust to settle.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Hey, QQ, meant to say in the other telepathy thread how muh i like your theory. but anyhow i am saying it here

the KEY i recokon is the understanding that matter-energy is sentient

so for exmple, not ONLY another human being can onepotentially commune with in a telepathid way, but also an animal, a plany, a rock, etc

you see, the materialist, with his sci-method limited to hismaterialistic expectations will see the, eg., 'rock' and will E X P L A I N it. for example, ask tem 'what IS a rock?' and they will leaf thru the current materiasltic 'objective' state of the art info, and that is that. they are understading this from an 'OBJECTIFIST@ standpoint.......for them rock is a 'dead' thing' even tho QM has shown it is a bubbling event, still the 'event' is seen s a mecnacial event and in no way related on a deep level. cept maybe as 'actualized' by the measurement of consciousess

BUT when we begin exploring that.....we are sentient, as are our bodies, every sell, every atom, etc,,,,,AND the space in between and around us and the rock, AND the rock, thenthings become more alive with potentiality
However, as you insight--IF the person sticks to the 'objectivist' matrx, and creates an impass-like 'scientific method' which 'proves' their materialsitcassertions, and the whole intellectul, institutional man-made environment opresses with tis ideology, then it is much more strained for any understanding about this to be encouraged

so, riiiiight on QQ, keep up the good work

Yes yes , I see you grasp how thie entangled relationship also exists for the hard stuff [ matter ] as well.
The model I am suggesting shows that even though the "hard stuff" appears to be separate to us it is in fact a very essential part of the entire living thing that the universe is. Just becasue it is non-self animated does not necessarrily mean it is not living as you and I are.

In the context of telekenesis, it can be seen that even though we have an entangled relationship with all this hard stuff [ at a fundamental level] that as soon as we attempt to effect that hardstuff with our wills it offers resistance. Thus it takes effort to move things around. Which means that attemping to move something with our wills alone will fail because the entanglement is effectively broken or mitigated. So the more we try the harder it gets....etc...

The important thing though to consider is that we too are made or "hard stuff" and that we too have an immediate and direct relationship with the hard stuff that makes up our bodies. This entangled relationship allows us to be self animated. So if we extend this logic to the universe in general then it can be seen that the universe is a mere extension of our entangled wills. It is only because we believe it to be separate that our effect on it is mitigated.

Mind you, this is also essential because if profound mind over matter was common we would have absolute chaos.

So dualism is necessary for universal survivorship. Of course the outcome of dualism is suffering and that is what consciousness is. The suffering of not being one [ unconscious]

 

[Laika]

Perhaps this thread should be made sticky as a good definition of pseudoscience. Seven replies in and it's already incorporated dimensions, entanglement, quantum mechanics and 'zero point' without a hint of irony. Best yet, included is an excuse for the absence of evidence: (By Quantum Quack)

So in my model it become apparent that telepathy can only be proved in hindsight and is not at present able to be mastered as an act of delberate will with any consistancy.

The questioon may come up :
"Why is it we have no proof even after so many years and so much talk?"

As part of the answer I woud reply to this with:

Take for example the discipline of strict Buddhism and how a monk would devote his entire life to achieve this zero point focuss, yet none have been able to sustain this state for longer than a few moments. To have the ability to deliberately and consstantly will a telepathic event in a predicable manner takes enormous discipline and training, much more than any human is currently capable of.

Class.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Perhaps this thread should be made sticky as a good definition of pseudoscience. Seven replies in and it's already incorporated dimensions, entanglement, quantum mechanics and 'zero point' without a hint of irony. Best yet, included is an excuse for the absence of evidence: (By Quantum Quack)



Class.

ha...class....hmmmm....thanks, and yes of course it is pseudo science as is any new hypothesis before it is tested and recognised.

BTW , as an aside:
Special relativity allows for the fact that a reference frame can consider itself to be at rest [relative to other "moving" frames]and not be able to prove other wise. That it's time may be dilated and it's length contracted but not be able to prove this to be the case unless told so by another observer which then invalidates the observation because the other observer also deems himself to be at rest. [ all arbitary assessments and not evidenced as the same theory will state that no rest frame is possible other than one arbitarilly declared as such.]
The absense of evidence is well and truely indoctrinated even in this very successful theory.

so I thank you for the compliment.....although I do feel that Special relativity theory would make a better sticky for pseudo science than my little ditty....

 

[Quantum Quack]

Actually I am tempted to write the following as a vehicle to understanding the contention.

Scenario:

We have Bob in New york and Jim in London. Neither are aware consciously of the others existence, they are not attempting to manipulate something they are unaware of.

During the Christmas break they both head of to Sydney, Australia for a holiday and end up sharing the same Hotel and have adjacent rooms. The first moment they become consciously aware of each other is when they meet in the hall way on their way to breakfast.
Prior to meeting in the hall way it could be said that they [their wills] were passsively entangled as it is with every one else they are unaware of and have no memory of. But as soon as they become aware, their passive entanglement becomes more pro-active as each for example attempts to impress the other or effect the others decisions. Thus the passive entanglement is lost and now the two of them are recognisably separated simply because they are aware of each other. As Bob is the aggressive American and Jim is the more passive Londoner type Bob immediately exerts his influence over Jim and Jim feels oppressed by Bob, in fact if the conflict of wills is strong enough Jim will try to avoid being with Bob.

So the reason telepathy is so hard to predict is this simple conflict of wills that goes on all the time as our awareness defeates our desire to be in control and effect our environment [ including other people]

 

[ellion]

QQ are you familiar with the work of the farsight institute?

 

[ellion]

while i agree with some of the ideas it contains i do find your theory difficult to digest.

however

In another thread I mentioned a scenario about a safe. [ the sort you store money in]
And how in it's normal state it remains unlocked but as you attempt to open it it locks itself thus dis-allowing you to gain access to it's contents. yet when left alone remains open [ temptation]

the need for a safety mechanism to protect the contents is brought about by the desire to posess what is inside. when no such desire to take possession exists would the safe still close. do you think the safe is activated by the presence of an entity or the intention of that entity.

The same could be said for telepathy. Once you attempt to do it, it fails however once you relax and it happens as per nature it works, thus telepathy is unpredictable until someone can do it with out trying to do it.

until the desire is not in our way.
there is something else that inhibits our natural ability. Doubt.

"don't try to do it, just do it" Yoda said to Luke as he attempted to levitate his space ship.

i think what prevented luke was doubt

Take for example the discipline of strict Buddhism and how a monk would devote his entire life to achieve this zero point focuss, yet none have been able to sustain this state for longer than a few moments.To have the ability to deliberately and consstantly will a telepathic event in a predicable manner takes enormous discipline and training, much more than any human is currently capable of.

maybe this is an example of trying too hard.

 

[duendy]

Yes yes , I see you grasp how thie entangled relationship also exists for the hard stuff [ matter ] as well.
The model I am suggesting shows that even though the "hard stuff" appears to be separate to us it is in fact a very essential part of the entire living thing that the universe is. Just becasue it is non-self animated does not necessarrily mean it is not living as you and I are.

In the context of telekenesis, it can be seen that even though we have an entangled relationship with all this hard stuff [ at a fundamental level] that as soon as we attempt to effect that hardstuff with out wills it offers resistance. Thus it takes effort to move things around. Which means that attemping to move something with our wills alone will fail because the entanglement is effectively broken or mitigated. So the more we try the harder it gets....etc...

The important thing though to consider is that we too are made or "hard stuff" and that we too have an immediate and direct relationship with the hard stuff that makes up our bodies. This entangled relationship allows us to be self animated. So if we extend this logic to the universe in general then it can be seen that the universe is a mere extension of our entangled wills. It is only because we believe it to be separate that our effect on it is mitigated.

Mind you, this is also essential because if profound mind over matter was common we would have absolute chaos.

So dualism is necessary for universal survivorship. Of course the outcome of dualism is suffering and that is what consciousness is. The suffering of not being one [ unconscious]

i rather see it as modes oc consciousneess....for example our present state is as adequate as othewr states, and all states are part of a dynamic continuum o potential states...

so i dont see anything wrong with having to physically move things about. for our muscular, cardivascluar system needs us to excercise. it is great to be active and to be active. notice mow modern technology seems to demand we dp less and less with its push button gadgets. people become more and more LESS active, even children. and this is not good for health

in othe modes---can call them deeper i you wish. one may be more susceptable for experiences such as telepathy, OBE's etc-------sych experiences might not be appropriates when the more physical modeis needed. get me? yet there is POTENTIAL for all forms of awareness etc

but what materialistic philosophy does is dismisa and ridicule and explain away other modes of being/experience. thus oppressing everyone who may have had such expeiences, and are made to feel 'liars' 'whackos' etc, ad discourags those who are interested in exploring about it, especially if they get sucked into te materialistic philosophy, and then deny other foms and ways orf relating to reality

speculating, i have read Jack Sarfatti's theories of possible spce craft which can be controlled 'telepthically' tho am not sure he uses that term. but is more an understanding of relation between craft and bodymind.....?

 

[Ellimist]

So the reason telepathy is so hard to predict is this simple conflict of wills that goes on all the time as our awareness defeates our desire to be in control and effect our environment [ including other people]

I keep noticing a pattern throughout this thread and others claiming telepathy. It is obvious in this sentence I quoted. There seems to be a continuous jump of logic between observation and explanation. There are auxiliary hypotheses or assumptions that haven't been tested. For example, "simple conflict of wills" is a value judgment. Not science.

Pseudoscience involves ideas that are dressed up as science but aren't. Also known as "non-science." If it isn't scientific at all, it cannot even be "bad science." This is "non-science."

You might want to rework your idea, QQ, including tests of your ad hoc assumptions.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I keep noticing a pattern throughout this thread and others claiming telepathy. It is obvious in this sentence I quoted. There seems to be a continuous jump of logic between observation and explanation. There are auxiliary hypotheses or assumptions that haven't been tested. For example, "simple conflict of wills" is a value judgment. Not science.

This of course assumes that I am not referring to the physical nature of our wills, and that this simple conflict of wills is not just a mere value judgement but also a physical effect of two of more wills attempting to to do different things with in the same person.

Of course these ideas have yet to be tested or even determined as to whether testing is even possible. All the above is really about suggesting a hypothesis and seeing how it fits in with my observations.
I am confident that I am not the only person who has thought these thoughts.

The hypothesis I suggest seems to fit just fine to what I have observed. Will it ever be proved and evidenced?...I doubt it. So it just remains a mere thought, an abstraction , an idea and that is all it may be to you but it is a possible evolving solution to me.

 

[Quantum Quack]

QQ are you familiar with the work of the farsight institute?

No, not specifically,[ have just googled to their web site] however I am aware that there are a few organisations that promote the notion and training in and of remote viewing.[RV]
Years ago after experiencing many RV type events I did some research and found that in the main there was no serious [non-commercial ] efforts to understand or offer help to those interested in the subject.
One website was offering personal training for a huge amount of money and I was put off doing any further research over the internet.

What I have found from experience is that there are at least two forms of remote perception viewing.
One I call remote sensing and the other I refer to as remote viewing.
Remote viewing can be described as direct "mindeye" visual perception and remote sensing is indirect [via the senses] involving all the senses in varying degrees of intensity. Remote sensing is by far the harder ability to live with that remote viewing. [ picking up stray or unwanted remote sensed information can be very confusing]
The physics of Remote viewing/sensing [ direct perception ] touch upon the very fundamentals of existance, and provides insight into the collective imagination/ consciousness that few have achieved.

Do you have a particular interest in this area Ellion?

 

[Quantum Quack]

the need for a safety mechanism to protect the contents is brought about by the desire to posess what is inside. when no such desire to take possession exists would the safe still close. do you think the safe is activated by the presence of an entity or the intention of that entity.

Both, because it is the nature of the awareness of the entity to have purpose attached to that awareness. It is unavoidable that even though the entity wishes not to possess the contents of the safe consciously his instincts would show other wise. In other words consciously not wanting the contents is not enough it must also be instinctive as well. And that is the hardest thing to train to be instinctively passively benign...

until the desire is not in our way.
there is something else that inhibits our natural ability. Doubt.

i think what prevented luke was doubt

maybe this is an example of trying too hard.

Correct, doubt has it's inhibiting effects however the mere trying to do something implies doubt. To try to do something is to apply effort in the doing. As soon as you apply effort that exceeds your normal passive abilities the effort becomes counter productive. [Ask a concert pianist about the difference between playing and trying to play the piano for example]
Funnilly enough the idea of having Luke stand on one hand and levitate his craft has some relevance, in that not only is he distracted by the effort of standing on one hand he is putting his energy into the standing on one hand thus diverting his energy from levitating the craft thus making the levitation easier. However one wonders why he just simply didn't levitate himself and be done with it. By splitting his energy focuss he has lowered his concentration level on the craft to a more "incidental "level.

 

[ellion]

i dont have an interest in remote viewing particularly, my interest is more in the spiritual.

it was more the scientific theory that you presented that made me wonder if your interest in parapsychology was related to RV. i feel that the farsight institute has a very similar theoretical framework to the one you present. they use different terms to describes similar concepts, they also take into consideration QM etc, if you have browsed their site you will have noticed they are a scientific research oranisation and provide many FREE resources for RV training, including full RV courses. as you probably know RV is a discipline which is predictable and provable as a psi phenomena.

Remote sensing is by far the harder ability to live with that remote viewing.

my geuss would be that when you dont understand what is happening to you and every one you ask for help thinks your psychotic, every blossoming psychic function is a nightmare to live with.

 

[ellion]

Both, because it is the nature of the awareness of the entity to have purpose attached to that awareness. It is unavoidable that even though the entity wishes not to possess the contents of the safe consciously his instincts would show other wise. In other words consciously not wanting the contents is not enough it must also be instinctive as well. And that is the hardest thing to train to be instinctively passively benign..

this part of our culture now, something else we must live with.
there is another perspective here, that of the safe. to allow your possesions to be take nout and handled by curious entities, entities that may even want to steal your possesions. this take a great deal of trust and similarly dispassion for the contents of the safe, desirelessness. how do you train such things in the average person. in the culture that we inhabit why would they even want to begin such a training.

Correct, doubt has it's inhibiting effects however the mere trying to do something implies doubt.

this is obviously a big obstacle to growth in the whole area of ESP and PSI, have you considered ways to overcome this?