Studies say: soul exists.

Jan Ardena

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Study 'proves' the soul exists

Its claimed a new study 'proves' the soul exists.

The evidence is from 'dead' patients whose hearts stop beating and then experience a form of afterlife.

The study will be published in the Lancet later this week.

Doctors who studied 344 heart attack survivors found more than one in 10 had experienced emotions, visions or lucid thoughts while they were "clinically dead" - unconscious with no signs of pulse, breathing or brain activity.

Some reported having "out-of-body" experiences. It supports a long-held view that the mind - or soul - can survive death.

The research, by a Dutch team, will be seized on by academics who support a theory that the mind can continue to work after the brain has stopped.

Church leaders will cite it as evidence for the existence of a soul.

The two-year study in 10 Dutch hospitals is the largest study into the phenomenon.

It found that 12 per cent of cardiac arrest survivors reported having various "near-death experiences" (NDEs) before being resuscitated.

Dr Peter Fenwick, a consultant neuropsychiatrist at London University, told The Sunday Telegraph, "If the mind and brain can be independent, then that raises questions about the continuation of consciousness after death. It also raises questions about a spiritual component to humans and about a meaningful universe with a purpose rather than a random universe."

Story filed: 12:16 Sunday 9th December 2001


Just came about this article, would like to hear what people think.

Love.

Jan Ardena.
 
I'm not in any position to make a judgement on souls, whether they exist or not. But I would like to point out that people who suffer oxygen deprivation very often suffer hallucinations. This does not indicate astral travel or any other such thing. It only indicates hallucinations. And yes, their is chemical activity going on in the brain after the heart stops beating.
 
As Adam pointed out, there is indeed activity of one form or another in the brain for a while after you die. For example, after you are clinically dead your metabolism continues to function for several hours. It could not be doing this were it not for the brain telling it to.

As for out of body experiences, they could be anything. They could simply be hallucinations due to lack of oxygen, as Adam suggested, or they could be a sort of safety system built into our brains to attempt to keep us alive for as long as possible, or for all we know the patients could be making it all up. After all, why would only 12 percent of people with cardiac arrest experience NDEs?

I don't think we know enough about our brains yet to jump to conclusions like this. After all, how many times have we taken someone who has just died a few minutes ago and done an MRI or CAT scan on them? Not once I'd say.
 
Why are people in general, especially nowadays, so much against the idea of a soul, would it not be, at the very least, a better option to be eternal, than to have only a few years and then finish????

If it were possible, through technology, to give eternal life at the same quality of existense as now, would you opt for it or not?

Love.

Jan Ardena.
 
Jan,

Why are people in general, especially nowadays, so much against the idea of a soul…
It is interesting how because of our different perspectives we do see this issue as opposites. I have the impression that too many people DO think that souls exist, and you see the opposite. No criticism intended here, it was just an observation. And I’m not sure which one of us might be correct.

..would it not be, at the very least, a better option to be eternal, than to have only a few years and then finish????
Yes I agree. No argument on that.

If it were possible, through technology, to give eternal life at the same quality of existense as now, would you opt for it or not?
Yes definitely. It is one reason why I support Mind Uploading research where I think what you suggest may actually be possible in the not too distant future.

But as for NDE’s: The problem here is that all the witnesses have all undergone severe trauma to the brain. We know that hallucinogenic drugs can create identical effects. Such drugs primarily alter the functioning of the synapses in the brain. A brain starved of oxygen similarly affects the synapses.

If memory within the brain has been altered by brain trauma, then when the victims recover they will have no way to differentiate between reality and potential hallucinations. They will understandably be totally convinced of their experiences because that is exactly what their memories are telling them.

So any claims for a soul under extreme brain trauma conditions is always going to be highly suspect. A more acceptable claim would be to show the existence of a soul under normal conditions.

But I look forward to the Lancet article.

Thanks for the advanced notice.

Cris
 
Hey Jan,

If it should turn out that we do have souls, contrary to what many atheist believe, that’d be okay with me. Not like I’d have a lot choice about the matter anyway. :) But sure, having eternal life could be wonderful.

In the meantime, a lot of people don’t think it’s likely, or even possible, that we have souls; the idea of not having a soul isn’t troublesome to them; and they’re content to make the most of the life they have here and now. For many, that is the purpose of life. To live it. Now. And not to wager on things we really can’t be sure about.

Humans tend to fear death and/or the unknown. And Humans strive to find ways to cope with their fears. For many, one way of coping is to seek an understanding of that which is “unknowable,” even if it means accepting a lot on faith to help alleviate such fears. (At least it’s unknowable for now.) And some of us choose to be really careful about claiming what we know, or believe, because we would rather not waste any precious part of our lives pursuing something that doesn’t add up. We just all don’t share the same fears.

~~~

Counterbalance
 
What is the difference between a live body and a dead body?
If we have no soul, can we be compared with a machine?
If yes then……
Do you think it is then possible to repair the body/machine, and bring it back to life?
How could it be done?

Here is a text from BG which offers objective proof of a soul, according to vedic literature.
All descriptions of the soul, from a religious perspective, arrive at the same conclusion, that the soul is eternal and unchanging, and that the body is only a vessel in which the soul resides. So regardless of your personal beliefs and understanding, I would like you to read the said script and comment, as to what you think it means.
Thanks.

As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death.

Love.

Jan Ardena.
 
Jan,

Can you give me a page reference in BG please.

Cris
 
Basically Jan, for me it boils down to another one of those unnecessary things. There is nothing to suggest we have souls. There is no need for souls. Everything a soul is supposed to do can be explained when we look at our brains in detail. What seems more logical here? That our brains are responsible for our emotions, memories, feelings etc. or that we have invisible, undetectable souls that use our brains to convey these things?

If we can already explain the above things when looking at our brain only, why on earth would we want to mess the whole thing up again by throwing in a soul that serves no obvious purpose?
 
it is just like it ws with eather (sp)
before Einstein came up with his theory of relativity, eather was presumed to exitist, because it was needed to explain matter and space. but with Einstein' s theory eather became unneedable and thus get rid of.
What I wanted to say is tht we immagine different things to exist to explain our world, and latter when we see no need for these immagined things we can get rid of thm. (God for instance)
but the picture with soul is still quite uncertain and for know we should not dismiss it as a possibility.
Cheers!
 
I’m guessing at the passage.

Original:
yatha prakasayaty ekah
krtsnam lokam imam ravih
ksetram ksetri tatha krtsnam
prakasayati bharata


Translation:
O son of Bharata, as the sun alone illuminates all this universe, so does the living entity, one within the body, illuminate the entire body by consciousness.


My take:
The sun is situated in one place, but illuminates the universe with light; the soul, situated in the heart of your body, illuminates the whole body with consciousness. So consciousness is the proof of the presence of the soul, as light is the proof of the presence of the sun.

Peace
 
Jan,

What is the difference between a live body and a dead body?
It’s a good question. And the answer isn’t as easy as one would think.

The simple answer is - A live body contains active systems and a dead body doesn’t. Actives systems can be defined as –

1. The cells that maintain the physical form.
2. The nervous system that provides power to the motor functions, e.g. muscular movements etc.
3. The brain that provides a command and control function.

All depend on each other. If the heart stops then oxygen (fuel) cannot reach the cells, so the cells stop functioning. Much like a car running out of fuel, it stops. Since the brain is also comprised of cells then the brain will cease to function as well. If the heart isn’t restarted quickly then the body starts to decay and reaches a point where it cannot be revived.

If we have no soul, can we be compared with a machine?
Yes I think so, it is just the construction materials that would be different. All machines need to be powered somehow, either by chemical energy (burning fuel) or electrical energy. If the energy source is disconnected then the machine will stop. Bio machines tend to wear out faster than metal machines since the bodywork is continually being worn away and new cells have to be constantly rebuilt and replaced.

If yes then……
Do you think it is then possible to repair the body/machine, and bring it back to life?
How could it be done?
For the sake of this example I’ll compare a human to a computer noting that for now the human brain is some 100 million times more powerful than the best computers to date.

The basis of a computer is the running program operating within a physical form. We could say the computer is alive because it has active systems, i.e. it is consuming energy. If we remove the power then the program is usually lost and must be reloaded (rebooted). We could say that if power is removed then the computer is dead. But it is easy to revive a computer.

In a human the program is represented by the vast array of neural networks that comprise our memories and thought processes. These networks are a combination of electrical and chemical interactions maintained by living cells. If power is turned off, i.e. the fuel supply (oxygen) to the brain cells, then the neural networks will rapidly begin to decay. The program will begin to be fade away.

The big difference between a bio machine (human) and a metal and plastic machine is that the form (shell) does not deteriorate in the metal machine when power is removed. This means that such machines can be very easily revived and their programs reloaded from a backup. But in a human the shell starts to decay as soon as power is removed. Just restoring power isn’t sufficient for revival if the shell has decayed too much.

How could we repair a human machine once the fuel supply has been stopped for a long period? One can’t since the neural networks would have decayed and there is no backup like a computer.

For the human personality to survive the death of its bodily shell it must find a way to transfer its neural networks to some form of backup media, perhaps another bio substrate or a computer style substrate. Science isn’t that advanced yet of course. A replacement shell would then be needed. Perhaps one could be grown from biomaterial, or perhaps a robotic type shell could be built. The growing of a complete replacement human body is not even on the horizon, but robotic type bodies have already been built, albeit rather primitive.

Cris
 
Originally posted by Cris
Jan,
Can you give me a page reference in BG please.


I'm not sure which copy you have, but my page number is 91, the actual text number is ch.2 v13

Love.

Jan Ardena.
 
What that ch.2 v13 quote seems to say is that because physical bodies pass through stages, the soul must too. That, of course, is contrary to all the talk of the soul being a different type of thing that's outside time and never really changes.


Goofyfish's passage makes more sense to me... it indicates in a way how consciousness envelops all of our experience, and how we'd be unaware of anything without having that perspective to observe from.
 
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The Quran gives very little information about the soul.
Surah 17:85
"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say(Muhammad): 'The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)' "

I think the clear picture of soul/spirit will remain secret for us. Fate.
 
The simple answer is - A live body contains active systems and a dead body doesn’t. Actives systems can be defined as –

1. The cells that maintain the physical form.
2. The nervous system that provides power to the motor functions, e.g. muscular movements etc.
3. The brain that provides a command and control function.
All depend on each other. If the heart stops then oxygen (fuel) cannot reach the cells, so the cells stop functioning. Much like a car running out of fuel, it stops. Since the brain is also comprised of cells then the brain will cease to function as well. If the heart isn’t restarted quickly then the body starts to decay and reaches a point where it cannot be revived.


If that is the case, then surely a recently deceased, and in tact body could be brought back to life, either by repair or new parts, in the same way one could repair a (dead) computer.

For the human personality to survive the death of its bodily shell it must find a way to transfer its neural networks to some form of backup media, perhaps another bio substrate or a computer style substrate. Science isn’t that advanced yet of course. A replacement shell would then be needed. Perhaps one could be grown from biomaterial, or perhaps a robotic type shell could be built. The growing of a complete replacement human body is not even on the horizon, but robotic type bodies have already been built, albeit rather primitive.

I must take it that you are not only aware but comply with ‘Churches theisis’ so I will try and base my argument from that viewpoint. If you are not and don’t, then I will give a basic description. It implies that, in principle, any scheme of symbol manipulation we can precisely define, can be carried out by a modern digital computer. Or the neural activity in our brains, are known to display electrochemical activities similar to the logical switching elements used in computer circuitry. So our brain, you could say is the central processing unit and in modern scientific understanding, the seat of consciousness. That being the case, then a computer, such as the type you mentioned, which is just around the corner, will have consciousness. This is where I have my doubts.
If a computer is executing a highly complex program, where would the computers consciousness reside?
From what is understood about digital computers, the CPU will be carrying out only one instruction at any given time, and the millions of instructions comprising the rest of the program will exist only as an inactive record in the computer’s memory. So it can’t suddenly have a brainwave, a change of plan, like us. In what way can we correlate this systematic activity with the conscious perception of thoughts and feelings?
And if the human being is nothing more than a machine, then how comes we are conscious and are able to?
How come we are capable of abstract and subjective thought, whic has clearly been demonstrated time and again, to be sudden and unplanned?

I am not challenging you, I would like to get to the bottom of whether or not we are primarily an entity, outside of this manifestaition, which links itself with matter which then becomes animated. The missing link, if you like.

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Originally posted by ismu
The Quran gives very little information about the soul.
Surah 17:85
"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say(Muhammad): 'The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)' "
I think the clear picture of soul/spirit will remain secret for us. Fate.


Look again….

Then why do ye not (Intervene) when (the soul of the dying man) reaches the throat.
Al Waqi’ah 83


Call back the soul, if ye are true (in you claim of independence)
Al Waqi’ah 87

Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgement shall you be paid your full recompence.
Al Imran 185

(To the righteous soul Will be said)
“O (thou) soul.
In complete rest And satisfaction!
Come back thou To thy Lord-well pleased (thyself) And well-pleasing unto Him!
Al Fajr 27-29

If you could only see when the wrongdoers are in the agonies of death, and the angels are stretching out their hands, “Bring out your souls! Today you will be repaid with the punishment of humiliation.”
Al An’am 93


These are just a few verses I selected which contain the word ‘soul,’ as for information, it is purley about the soul, either directly or indirectly.

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Jan Ardena

Why are people in general, especially nowadays, so much against the idea of a soul, would it not be, at the very least, a better option to be eternal, than to have only a few years and then finish????
It's not about what we want. It's about what the evidence points towards as truth. It is comforting to believe that we never end in consciousness. That does not change the facts.
If it were possible, through technology, to give eternal life at the same quality of existense as now, would you opt for it or not?
I would not. That creates an imbalance in the system and would surely mean the demise of the human race. If everyone opted for that we would lack the ability to adapt. If one person or a few did it there would be repercussions.
Study 'proves' the soul exists

Its claimed a new study 'proves' the soul exists.

The evidence is from 'dead' patients whose hearts stop beating and then experience a form of afterlife.

The study will be published in the Lancet later this week.

Doctors who studied 344 heart attack survivors found more than one in 10 had experienced emotions, visions or lucid thoughts while they were "clinically dead" - unconscious with no signs of pulse, breathing or brain activity.

Some reported having "out-of-body" experiences. It supports a long-held view that the mind - or soul - can survive death.

The research, by a Dutch team, will be seized on by academics who support a theory that the mind can continue to work after the brain has stopped.

Church leaders will cite it as evidence for the existence of a soul.

The two-year study in 10 Dutch hospitals is the largest study into the phenomenon.

It found that 12 per cent of cardiac arrest survivors reported having various "near-death experiences" (NDEs) before being resuscitated.
None of this is new. All prior conclusions held that nothing certain could be interpreted from this data. Science has explained every aspect of the phenomena. The only thing new here is some bias in the Dutch team. This study has been in effect compromised. The conclusions are only speculation.
If that is the case, then surely a recently deceased, and in tact body could be brought back to life, either by repair or new parts, in the same way one could repair a (dead) computer.
Get with the program, we've been doing this for years. How do you think we have all of these "near-death" experiences? A simple electric charge is that repair. It is only a matter of time before we learn how to do frankensteins. Not that we should, just that we could.
 
Being allergic to most medications, when undergoing what are known to the medical community to be painful medical procedures, I have to forego the use of anesthetics. When undergoing surgeries and other invasive procedures, I have to consciously remove what I call "myself" from the physical body so as not to experience the pain of the procedure. During those times, "I" have been suspended in a dimension of light. I definitely believe that there is more to us than just our physical bodies.
 
Jan,

Good post and some good questions.

If that is the case, then surely a recently deceased, and in tact body could be brought back to life, either by repair or new parts, in the same way one could repair a (dead) computer.
Yes that is true and we are seeing that happen far more frequently in recent times. Usually heart failure meant permanent death but modern resuscitation techniques are able to restart hearts under such conditions. Repairs can then take the form of heart bypass surgery and similar techniques. We also have seen heart transplants and more recently complete artificial hearts.

Kidney failure is another area where death would result but kidney dialysis can solve that problem. Cancer used to be a sure killer but surgery and chemotherapy can often solve some of those problems.

But meaningful resuscitation does depend on accessing the patient very quickly before the brain patterns undergo irretrievable decay. There are cases where the body can be kept alive by machines but the brain patterns had decayed meaning there is no control function left. When the support machines are turned off the patient’s shell then simply dies.

then a computer, such as the type you mentioned, which is just around the corner, will have consciousness. This is where I have my doubts.
Ok and that I think is a fair comment.

If a computer is executing a highly complex program, where would the computers consciousness reside?
And here I think will be the crux of our discussion. We need to agree on what is meant by consciousness, and it doesn’t seem to as intuitive as many believe. I’ll come back to this.

But first I’d like to finish the comparison between computers and the brain, as this will lead directly into how consciousness can be achieved on a computer.

From what is understood about digital computers, the CPU will be carrying out only one instruction at any given time, and the millions of instructions comprising the rest of the program will exist only as an inactive record in the computer’s memory. So it can’t suddenly have a brainwave, a change of plan, like us. In what way can we correlate this systematic activity with the conscious perception of thoughts and feelings?
You are both right and wrong. Yes a given CPU only executes one instruction at a time. Well almost. Most modern CPUs pipeline many instructions in parallel, but yes ultimately the one at the end of the pipe is executed before the others.

Parallel Processing Systems.

But most business computers have multiple CPUs. These are configured as SMPs (Symmetric Multi Processors), or MPP (Massively Parallel Processors). In an SMP multiple CPUs operate independently and access a common memory. The programs that run on such systems are designed so that they can fork multiple tasks that can execute in parallel. An MPP consists of a cluster of single CPUs each with its own dedicated memory but a very high bandwidth communication bus links the CPUs. In such systems programs also run in parallel and can independently process their own data that is often merged together as an end result.

You should think of each neuron in the human brain as being a small CPU, capable of functioning independently. And memory in the human brain is not held in one place but seems to be dispersed. The computer equivalent to the human brain will be the Massively Parallel Processor (MPP) architecture.

The Complexity of the Human Brain.

The human brain contains somewhere around 100 billion neurons and 100 trillion synapses. That's the hardware. The software of the human brain is the result of millions of years of evolution and contains perhaps tens of thousands of complex functional adaptations. The brain itself is not a uniform lump but a highly modular supersystem; each of the two hemispheres of the cerebral cortex is divided into 52 areas, most of which can be further subdivided into five or six maps. The evolutionarily ancient subcortical structures are more modular still.

Human neurons fire approximately 200 times per second, using signals that travel at a maximum of 100 meters per second. By comparison, my computer's CPU operates at 850 million clock cycles per second, and the speed of light is 300 million meters per second; the reason a human brain has around a hundred million times as much raw computing power as my computer is that a human brain has 100 billion neurons and 100 trillion synapses operating in parallel.

But when we build a computer to the same power of the human brain we would not need to have 100 billion CPUs. A neuron is really very slow compared to existing CPU power, and especially compared to the CPU power that is expected in a few years. This means that with just simple time-sharing techniques a single high power CPU will be able to easily perform the same tasks as thousands of neurons in the same time frame.

Building the machine to duplicate brainpower is not going to be the problem, and notice that it will not be difficult to exceed human brainpower very quickly; a millionfold is well within projected technical limits.

Massive Parallelism and Consciousness.

And if the human being is nothing more than a machine, then how comes we are conscious and are able to?
How come we are capable of abstract and subjective thought, which has clearly been demonstrated time and again, to be sudden and unplanned?
And here we return to the real issue.

I hope I have shown you that we can build the hardware to do the same as the brain, but what really matters is the software. And this is where it is very important for to forget the current relatively primitive power of modern computers, they are some 100 million times slower than your brain.

A few years ago IBM’s Deep Blue beat Kasparov at chess. When beaten, Kasparov stormed out because he detected Deep Blue using subtle strategies and subjective techniques that he had never seen in a machine before, he was convinced there were humans really making the moves.

Deep Blue did make the moves but it had not been programmed with any AI techniques, it simply used raw power to consider many more combinations of moves than the human brain was capable. In short Deep Blue was capable of apparent subjective thought.

Now consider these steps.

1. Deep Blue with 100 million times the power built as an MPP system.
2. Software written that specifically exploits AI techniques based on human brain neural networks.

While I can’t prove that the result will be the equivalent to what we call human consciousness but I think there is a good chance that it will.

I am not challenging you, I would like to get to the bottom of whether or not we are primarily an entity, outside of this manifestaition, which links itself with matter which then becomes animated. The missing link, if you like.
So what I am suggesting is that Massive Parallelism that we see in the brain can be accurately replicated in computer hardware, and that properly designed and written AI software will achieve the equivalent of human consciousness.

Here is a link to an AI project dedicated to the creation of friendly AI.

http://www.singinst.org/CFAI/index.html

Will we be able to create the equivalence of human consciousness (whatever that means) on a computer? I don’t really know, but I hope so since I believe my long-term future depends on this.

Is there a supernatural soul that provides human consciousness? I don’t know that either, but based on my studies I don’t think so.

I hope you are still with me at this point and I haven’t bored you too much with my computing lecture. You might like to know that I manage a research and design department for a major computer manufacturer here in Silicon Valley, specifically in the area of MPP systems.

Cris
 
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