Stereotyping Muslims
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
Your intellectual dishonesty has been noted, yet again.
There is usually a reason why people garnish a particular stereotype. Not all Muslims marry their cousins, but sure enough, when a Lebanese Muslim student and I were discussing relationships he stated, emphatically, he intended to return to Lebanon and marry a first cousin - one of his choosing (because: That's what "we" do).
:bugeye:
Do all Muslims do so? No. Do some Christian Lebanese do so? Yes.
The stereotype exists that ME Muslims marry their cousins. Here was a ME Muslim telling me he intended to marry his cousin. Therefor I was not "shocked" when he said as much. If an American who was Christian would have said he intended to marry his cousin, I would have asked if he was from the south and for the exact same reasons.
Stereotypes exist for a reason.
I have had many Muslims tell me these things:
- Arabic is the "best" language - - even: Arabic is "God's language".
- The Qur'an has no foreign words in it - only pure Arabic, Gods language.
- The Qur'an is perfect.
- Homosexuality is a sin.
- The Renaissances could not have happened with out Islam.
- There are "scientific" miracles in the Qur'an.
- The "honey" passage in the Qur'an "proves" it is scientific AND from God.
- Pork is bad to eat because Pigs do not sweat.
- Islam was never spread by the Sword.
- Polygamy is good because there are four times the number of women than men in the world.
and etc...
Then, there's the fantasy that the conquest of the Persians, through to the Spanish, was somehow a good thing for the conquered and done for rightous religous reasons; as if God wanted Arabs to kill conquer these people, as if no one was raped, no one was murdered, no one lost everything :bugeye:
Then there's the fantasy that at some blurry time in the past there existed a "perfect Islamic State" with a just Caliph and everyone lived happily ever after.
There's that time when that Muslim women, who made us dinner, would not shake my hand or even touch me. That contact with me would have somehow "tarnished" her spiritually.
In debate I sometimes ask people who are Muslim if the possibility exists that Mohammad was not a Prophet? The more honest will flat out say no. Others just refuse to answer.
Do all Muslim believe the same stuff, act the same way, think equally as illogical? No. But many I have come across have said these things, think this way and have acted like this. So I tend to associate them this those actions, thoughts and manners of thinking. But really - So what? Does it really matter if a minority of people think this? No. A majority may be a problem. I do not want to live in a country where a majority of people think polygamy is ok or have a fantasy that an Islamic State is going to work. The reason being - they may vote for legalized polygamy or even a change of government. Which would be their right to do so. This is why there is a backlash in the Netherlands and in Europe. People are worried society will become Islamic because there are more and more Muslim people there that carry one or more of these stereotypes. Europeans do not like it.
The only solution is to decrease immigration and increase education.
By education I mean serious archaeological based religous education.
A child that is taught to think about what it means to say the words the "best language" or a "pure" language with not fall into such a silly stereotypic trap.If the child is taught in a proper lecture the Persian, Indian, Greek, Assyrian, Hebrew, Ethiopian, Barbarian, Romanian, Coptic and Syrian words adopted into the Qur'an they will automatically be impervious to an Imam's bullcrap when said Imam's attempts to teach them otherwise.
When a child is taught that honey was used as an antiseptic for thousands of years, from Roman solders to Chinese, all long ... ... long before the Qur'an was written, they will automatically discount such a story as "scientific" proof of the Qur'an authenticity.
Once a child is taught to think critically about religion they are, in a sense, immune to a lot of its more deviant messages. Which is good for that religion, good for the child when they grow up and good for society.
When a child is taught that there are and were many different Qur'ans, that no one knows when the Qur'an was written nor the people who wrote which parts of it, nor even what day it was canonized, well that child will think a little more when they hear the words "the Perfect Qur'an".
Say by the time that child is in high school and they are taught that logically the possibly must exist that Mohammad was not a Prophet - well, now the dominoes are starting fall in the right direction.
I wonder, lets say every Aussie was taught that marrying a first cousin really a very bad thing to do for various scientific reasons. Really make thie message clear - DO NOT MARRY 1ST COUSINS. Over and over both subtly and maybe not so subtly then I imagine that this Muslim would NOT fall into that stereotype because they'd think it was a wrong behavior and have some good genetic and maybe even social reason why it was wrong behavior. In a generation that ME Muslim stereotype is all but broken.
That's basically it.
Michael
:bugeye:
Do all Muslims do so? No. Do some Christian Lebanese do so? Yes.
The stereotype exists that ME Muslims marry their cousins. Here was a ME Muslim telling me he intended to marry his cousin. Therefor I was not "shocked" when he said as much. If an American who was Christian would have said he intended to marry his cousin, I would have asked if he was from the south and for the exact same reasons.
Stereotypes exist for a reason.
I have had many Muslims tell me these things:
- Arabic is the "best" language - - even: Arabic is "God's language".
- The Qur'an has no foreign words in it - only pure Arabic, Gods language.
- The Qur'an is perfect.
- Homosexuality is a sin.
- The Renaissances could not have happened with out Islam.
- There are "scientific" miracles in the Qur'an.
- The "honey" passage in the Qur'an "proves" it is scientific AND from God.
- Pork is bad to eat because Pigs do not sweat.
- Islam was never spread by the Sword.
- Polygamy is good because there are four times the number of women than men in the world.
and etc...
Then, there's the fantasy that the conquest of the Persians, through to the Spanish, was somehow a good thing for the conquered and done for rightous religous reasons; as if God wanted Arabs to kill conquer these people, as if no one was raped, no one was murdered, no one lost everything :bugeye:
Then there's the fantasy that at some blurry time in the past there existed a "perfect Islamic State" with a just Caliph and everyone lived happily ever after.
There's that time when that Muslim women, who made us dinner, would not shake my hand or even touch me. That contact with me would have somehow "tarnished" her spiritually.
In debate I sometimes ask people who are Muslim if the possibility exists that Mohammad was not a Prophet? The more honest will flat out say no. Others just refuse to answer.
Do all Muslim believe the same stuff, act the same way, think equally as illogical? No. But many I have come across have said these things, think this way and have acted like this. So I tend to associate them this those actions, thoughts and manners of thinking. But really - So what? Does it really matter if a minority of people think this? No. A majority may be a problem. I do not want to live in a country where a majority of people think polygamy is ok or have a fantasy that an Islamic State is going to work. The reason being - they may vote for legalized polygamy or even a change of government. Which would be their right to do so. This is why there is a backlash in the Netherlands and in Europe. People are worried society will become Islamic because there are more and more Muslim people there that carry one or more of these stereotypes. Europeans do not like it.
The only solution is to decrease immigration and increase education.
By education I mean serious archaeological based religous education.
A child that is taught to think about what it means to say the words the "best language" or a "pure" language with not fall into such a silly stereotypic trap.If the child is taught in a proper lecture the Persian, Indian, Greek, Assyrian, Hebrew, Ethiopian, Barbarian, Romanian, Coptic and Syrian words adopted into the Qur'an they will automatically be impervious to an Imam's bullcrap when said Imam's attempts to teach them otherwise.
When a child is taught that honey was used as an antiseptic for thousands of years, from Roman solders to Chinese, all long ... ... long before the Qur'an was written, they will automatically discount such a story as "scientific" proof of the Qur'an authenticity.
Once a child is taught to think critically about religion they are, in a sense, immune to a lot of its more deviant messages. Which is good for that religion, good for the child when they grow up and good for society.
When a child is taught that there are and were many different Qur'ans, that no one knows when the Qur'an was written nor the people who wrote which parts of it, nor even what day it was canonized, well that child will think a little more when they hear the words "the Perfect Qur'an".
Say by the time that child is in high school and they are taught that logically the possibly must exist that Mohammad was not a Prophet - well, now the dominoes are starting fall in the right direction.
I wonder, lets say every Aussie was taught that marrying a first cousin really a very bad thing to do for various scientific reasons. Really make thie message clear - DO NOT MARRY 1ST COUSINS. Over and over both subtly and maybe not so subtly then I imagine that this Muslim would NOT fall into that stereotype because they'd think it was a wrong behavior and have some good genetic and maybe even social reason why it was wrong behavior. In a generation that ME Muslim stereotype is all but broken.
That's basically it.
Michael
These are good points, Michael. If indeed the problem - as many have said - is poor education in the islamic world (I wait excitedly for Sam's infuriated counter) then it is likely that many of these attitudes occur there. Less migration, more education. And, if it must come to that, separation. High walls make good neighbours.
We reformed one middle eastern religion of similar bend I fail to see why this one would be any different. There are female Imams in China and America. Anyway, I think SAM would agree with the over all assertion. We should set a goal: All Muslims should think that there is absolutley nothing wrong with butch homosexual female Imams leading Islamic prayer in Mosque. Once this is reached its obviously working because all of the "bad" cultural Arab baggage will be left in the Middle East - where they can do with it what they want.
Quest to become 'UK's first female imam'
Taught by her father, Ms Qureshi had read the Koran by the age of seven. She said that when she was younger, she could not "differentiate what was religion and what was culture," and that she thought Islam imposed "too many restrictions" on women. I had a lot of parents coming up to me and they said 'we're really proud of what you're doing, and you are an inspiration to our daughters' Salma Qureshi "It's only afterwards I realised that this is all cultural - religion doesn't really stop women doing anything," she added. "In fact women can do anything that they want providing it doesn't go against the religion."
Navid Akhtar, a commentator on Britain's Muslim community, explained that because the vast majority of the community is very traditional and has a "quite basic" understanding of Islam, it is "very patriarchal, very tribal" and expects women simply to pray at home. "So the idea that a woman trains to become an imam or wants to play quite a leading role in the running of a mosque would be a real shock," he said. "They would see it as a real challenge to their established power base."
I wonder, is Navid Akhtar comments (he is a "commentator" after all
) are stereotyping? OR, could it be that many Muslims are patriarchal, tribal and chauvinistic? Well, if SAM is correct and homosexuals can be Imams and females are complete equal with men (I'm pretty sure the Qur'an doesn't say it's a sin for a women to take four husbands does it?) then the root of the problem is the cultural baggage which is so tightly intertwined with Islam that it's going to take that serious education to break the two apart.
We can see that even SAM, as liberal a girl as one can about get, has a problem separating the two - the "Islam" Golden Age for example.
It'll take time but I think that if Muslim people are in the right head-space then they will act exactly like Christians in society.
If, somehow it fails, which I don't think it will as I go to the bar with Muslim buddys, get drunk and talk about porn stars BUT if it does then another option is to promote Bahai as a New Testament. That is one thing Christians do have is - a sort of do-over with Jesus that allows them to leave the Middle Eastern arse hole God for a remade one that is more amendable with modern civility.
Michael
Quest to become 'UK's first female imam'
Taught by her father, Ms Qureshi had read the Koran by the age of seven. She said that when she was younger, she could not "differentiate what was religion and what was culture," and that she thought Islam imposed "too many restrictions" on women. I had a lot of parents coming up to me and they said 'we're really proud of what you're doing, and you are an inspiration to our daughters' Salma Qureshi "It's only afterwards I realised that this is all cultural - religion doesn't really stop women doing anything," she added. "In fact women can do anything that they want providing it doesn't go against the religion."
Navid Akhtar, a commentator on Britain's Muslim community, explained that because the vast majority of the community is very traditional and has a "quite basic" understanding of Islam, it is "very patriarchal, very tribal" and expects women simply to pray at home. "So the idea that a woman trains to become an imam or wants to play quite a leading role in the running of a mosque would be a real shock," he said. "They would see it as a real challenge to their established power base."
I wonder, is Navid Akhtar comments (he is a "commentator" after all
) are stereotyping? OR, could it be that many Muslims are patriarchal, tribal and chauvinistic? Well, if SAM is correct and homosexuals can be Imams and females are complete equal with men (I'm pretty sure the Qur'an doesn't say it's a sin for a women to take four husbands does it?) then the root of the problem is the cultural baggage which is so tightly intertwined with Islam that it's going to take that serious education to break the two apart. We can see that even SAM, as liberal a girl as one can about get, has a problem separating the two - the "Islam" Golden Age for example.
It'll take time but I think that if Muslim people are in the right head-space then they will act exactly like Christians in society.
If, somehow it fails, which I don't think it will as I go to the bar with Muslim buddys, get drunk and talk about porn stars
BUT if it does then another option is to promote Bahai as a New Testament. That is one thing Christians do have is - a sort of do-over with Jesus that allows them to leave the Middle Eastern arse hole God for a remade one that is more amendable with modern civility. Michael
Because your stereotype of muslims tells you this couldn't posibly be for real
No because he sounds like an exaggeratedly kiddy version of Geoff.
Smooth SAM, smooth.
No because he sounds like an exaggeratedly kiddy version of Geoff.
Oh, Sam, your kind words touch even my cold heart. I imagine it's impossible that any other person than me has some of the same concerns? How will you shrug off this apostate? I guess you could say he was a misunderstander...yet, he was also a believer. So he might well have reasonable insight. Does islamic practice need to change in some areas? If not, what then, O' moderately moderate moderate?