Stereotyping Muslims

S.A.M.

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
Can there be a discussion on Islam thats not STUPID???

By Farish A Noor

It is interesting to reflect on the asinine times we live in, particularly
if like me, you are involved in that nebulous thing called ‘Inter-cultural
dialogue’. Over the past four weeks I have been engaged in numerous rounds
of dialogues between Western Europeans and Muslim migrant communities in
Amsterdam, Paris and Berlin, and in every single one of these encounters I
came across stereotypes of Muslims and Islam that were so shallow and
puerile that I am almost embarrassed to recount them here. Worst still these
pedestrian musings on Islam and Muslims were not the offerings of everyday
punters, but those who claimed to be well-known and admired scholars and
historians.

In one of these exchanges I was told the following: that ‘Islam is a
fascist, woman-hating, Christian-killing, gay-bashing macho male ideology of
hatred that was built on fourteen centuries of conquest and bloodshed,
murder and rape. That is why there cannot be integration of Muslims into
Europe, because the Muslims that we have here are the savages of the Arab
world who are barbaric, violent and brutal. They do not believe in reason
and the Enlightenment and Islamic civilisation has not produced anything
scientific, rational or humane.’ Try substituting the word ‘Muslim’ for
‘blacks’ and one would see how far-fetched and racist such claims really
are.

Now why is it that whenever we speak of Islam and Muslims today some of us
think they have the licence to drop their IQ level by a hundred points or
so? Is talk on Islam a licence to say anything dumb, offensive, provocative,
just for the sake of riling up the masses and grabbing a few headlines? A
politician in Holland has even stated that there should be a ban on any
reading of the Qur’an, on the grounds that it can be compared to Hitler’s
Mein Kampf. Others claim that all Muslims are determined primarily by their
religion which happens to be irrational, unscientific and
anti-Enlightenment.
http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/ta..._discussion_on_islam_thats_not_stupid/0014674
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Dr. Farish A Noor is a political scientist and historian at the Zentrum
Moderner Orient and guest Professor at Sunan Kalijaga Islamic University,
Jogjakarta. He is also one of the founders of the research site
http://www.othermalaysia.org

Since I do not have tiassa's facility for articulating my thoughts, I will leave the article to stand on its own merit.

Comments?
 
I can only agree with the writer of the article. I want to add though that the Dutch politician that proposed 'a ban on any reading of the Qur`an' is a total imbecile and not representative of the Dutch as far as I'm concerned.
 
How much of this discrimination (which is not racist), do Muslims have themselves to blame? People draw a cartoon, and Muslims cause chaos. If Jesus was depicted in poor taste, it would only cause a few murmurs in Christian corners, but do the same to Mohammad, and watch what happens...
 
Does anyone remember what happened to the last religious minority in Europe?
 
Have any of those so-called 'stereotypes' been demonstrated by Muslims throughout history?

Could be.
 
Tough question

KennyJC said:

How much of this discrimination (which is not racist), do Muslims have themselves to blame?
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How much of any supremacist ideology do its targets have to blame on themselves? In the United States, the setbacks imposed on blacks by the Jim Crow era still reverberate; it is easy enough for white folks to capitalize on indictments by prominent blacks like Bill Cosby, but Cosby is speaking in a context that whites don't understand. When Cosby speaks, he gets credit for a tacit presumption: "I understand, but ...." This is why whites taking aim at blacks get harder reactions than blacks. And when seemingly respectable whites play along with the irrational supremacists, wondering why a black person can say to blacks what a white person can't, it only reinforces the notion that whites are out to get blacks.

When any people feels cornered, their responses to perceived offense are greater. When someone goes out of their way to offend these communities, then, we should not be surprised at the escalated response.

In the United States, we generally share across our cultural, religious, and ethnic divisions a common materialism. One of the reasons we don't like "undignified" outcry is that it costs money. Think of the WTO riot in Seattle: when the property damage number in the range of a few to several million dollars didn't seem to shake people, city leaders, business interests, and the news media began pushing a "lost business" figure that roamed somewhere above twenty million. Suddenly, people were outraged. So when Kevin Smith releases a funny movie, we get a crazy guy named Donohue turning various shades of red and purple while flipping his lid on the 24/7 news networks. When a philosophy student makes a crack about Catholic priests ... oh, wait, that's Donohue again. What we have in the United States that others around the world--e.g. many, many Muslims--don't, are various processes for the expression of their frustration. We have television news networks dedicated to parading the insane and deranged across our screens. We have elections in which people are free to vote according to the principle that obeying the law equals a usurpation of democracy. We can pass vicious and discriminatory ballot measures to enforce our morality as law, or mobilize to elect school board members to denigrate science and history. That we don't often shoot it out is because there are many devices by which we can vent the constant pressure.

When people feel cornered, and do not perceive the availability of those devices, the pressure releases in concentrated bursts. Maybe, now that we've seen riots over cartoons, American heterosupremacists will stop complaining about gay pride parades and be thankful that they don't have hordes of angry faggots and dykes throwing Molotovs or shooting it out with the local Christian-extremist militias. And that's the thing: when you feel alienated and cornered, errors of simple ignorance are frustrating enough. When someone goes out of their way to piss you off, what, really, do people expect? Regardless of whatever stupid law, I think people ought to have the right to say that George W. Bush needs to be taken out back and shot. Conservatives from Gordon Liddy on down to the O'Reilly brigades would agree. (Liddy "assassinated" effigies of the Clintons in the 1990s; some of O'Reilly's website users have recently threatened Hillary Clinton's life and called for revolution if she is elected to the Oval Office.) The fact that I believe we should be able to say it, though, doesn't mean we actually need to say it. Liddy made an ass of himself, and, hell, the O'Reilly brigades are, well, O'Reilly fans.

Many Muslims around the world don't live in such conditions, and those who do are often still wary; Western institutions have not only failed Muslims in the past, but injured whole nations and entire cultures. It is difficult, especially in the United States, for the empowered majority to comprehend what this means. Just because Muslims aren't being shot in the back of the head doesn't mean they should be thankful to be donkey-punched, or kicked in the sac. Facing a quasi-reactionary faction that still sees Muslims as the "them" in "Us vs. Them", an influential voice that intends no compassion, no sympathy, and intends only to exploit in order to justify supremacist ideology, can we really expect Muslims to relax and cut loose?

It's a tough question. Certain criticism is fair, but discrimination against humans is simply evil. The truth of the matter is that "we" don't know how "they" will act when they have what we have. Or maybe we do. Seattle has a Muslim community. I remember seeing the mosque on 15th when I was a kid, and asking what it was. "A church," I was told. And in all the years since, the only "problems" associated with the mosque that I've ever known about are voiced by non-Muslims who, coincidentally, also happen to be agitators. These days, I hear and read about local communities "besieged" by calls to prayer. It's like nobody in these states have ever heard church bells. Or train horns. I remember going through the subwoofer wars up here. People will put up a vigorous defense of window-rattling bass just so they can act cool, but get bent out of shape over a call to prayer? My Muslim neighbors are just as invisible as any other faces in the crowd unless someone makes a point of compelling me to notice them.

Flip the question. After decades of commercial and industrial exploitation, nuclear brinkmanship, and aggressive imperialism, Americans have become, since 9/11, even angrier at the idea that the world doesn't thank us and kiss our collective ass. Have we done anything to deserve the shit people flip us? Ya sure, you betcha! And what we have, that Muslims abroad don't, is the power to choose the people who represent us poorly.

In the end, much of our criticism of the Islamic world intentionally overlooks history in order to make it about Islam, period. Pakistan in general? Talk to the British. The madrassas? Yeah, the United States has a role in that, so yes, we've contributed greatly to the state of affairs there. Iran? That would be us, again. We cannot pretend that the scars of what we did in Iran have disappeared. They won't disappear for at least a generation after the last of those who lived under the Shah are gone. And the echoes of what came next, Khomeni, won't fade away until after that. Iraq? Hell, we wouldn't have gotten ourselves so tangled up in the Iraqi debacle if we hadn't screwed with Iran. And it's not like we need to get down and suck them off in apology, but we do need to stop pretending that the problems in the Islamic world are solely the fault of Muslims, or of Islam. What's happening there is a human process; human beings are acting the way human beings do under such circumstances.

It's a very tough question that will be spiritually, psychologically, and intellectually simplified if we look at it according to its human and historical dimensions instead of working so hard to make it about our own supremacist needs.

It's a tough question, a complicated answer. Of course there's enough criticism to go around to everybody. But on the American side, we continually try to make it about supremacy. So do they? Fine. But the thing is that we, especially, ought to know better. European Muslims? There's a fair argument to be made that they need to figure a few things out, but that argument is far removed from the one that predominates the discourse. Those born under dictators, or into times of war? It may well be that they didn't stand a chance from the outset, but if we give up on those, all we've proven is that we're willing to forsake our neighbors for grand illusions designed to sublimate the sickness about our consciences.

It's damn near the equivalent of calling black people dishonorable because the slaves abandoned their masters. After all, what is worse than a traitor?°
_____________________

Notes:

° ... what is worse than a traitor? - While I have borrowed this phrase from one of my Sciforums fellows, it should be noted that I have assigned it a context relevant to this discussion that is, by any reasonable measure, separate from that in which it was originally offered.
 
Tiassa said:
And that's the thing: when you feel alienated and cornered, errors of simple ignorance are frustrating enough. When someone goes out of their way to piss you off, what, really, do people expect?
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Fair enough…but to what extent were the Muslims who rioted in India “cornered” by the people of Denmark? :bugeye:

Based on discussions that I've had with Muslims (including some from this board) many Muslims seem to have a sort of primitive, immature idea of "honor" that demands them to retaliate when they are insulted. It seems to be more a matter of one child on the playground punching another child who insulted his mother.
 
Nasor said:

Fair enough…but to what extent were the Muslims who rioted in India “cornered” by the people of Denmark?
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Um ... it was the equivalent of a sympathy strike labor action?


Based on discussions that I've had with Muslims (including some from this board) many Muslims seem to have a sort of primitive, immature idea of "honor" that demands them to retaliate when they are insulted. It seems to be more a matter of one child on the playground punching another child who insulted his mother.
Click to expand...

I live in the United States. When Bob insulted our mother, we went across town and beat the shit out of Joe, his brother and sister, his parents, his grandparents, his neighbors, his neighbors' kids, the neighbors' housekeeper, and the housekeeper's mother, who happens to live in a different city entirely. And, much like our God motto on the coins as a Christian statement against Communism, we've been infusing our patriotism with unhealthy overdoses of Christianity while acting like we'd rather be Muslims. After all, if we're a Christian nation, we should have turned the other cheek. Of course, if we were Muslims, we at least would have gone after the people who insulted our mother.

Call it what you want.
 
Tiassa said:
How much of any supremacist ideology do its targets have to blame on themselves? In the United States, the setbacks imposed on blacks by the Jim Crow era still reverberate; it is easy enough for white folks to capitalize on indictments by prominent blacks like Bill Cosby, but Cosby is speaking in a context that whites don't understand. When Cosby speaks, he gets credit for a tacit presumption: "I understand, but ...." This is why whites taking aim at blacks get harder reactions than blacks. And when seemingly respectable whites play along with the irrational supremacists, wondering why a black person can say to blacks what a white person can't, it only reinforces the notion that whites are out to get blacks.

When any people feels cornered, their responses to perceived offense are greater. When someone goes out of their way to offend these communities, then, we should not be surprised at the escalated response.
Click to expand...

You can't compare what's happening with Muslims to blacks in America. Blacks were completely discriminated against unfairly and blatantly. Their response to this was largely admirable, and can not in any way be compared to what Muslims are like in the world today.

Largely, it is the Muslims themselves (motivated by extreme religious beliefs) who think they are superior and will go to great lengths to threaten anyone who even hints differently. This is not restricted to Muslim countries, but in the UK also, where a stupid cartoon motivated Muslims to go to the streets asking to behead 'infidels' (and in doing so, proving the cartoons legitimate point).

It's the inherent hatred of 'infidels' in Muslim circles that leaves me with no sympathy to any unfair criticism they receive. Most of the criticism is completely justified though.
 
KennyJC said:
Largely, it is the Muslims themselves (motivated by extreme religious beliefs) who think they are superior and will go to great lengths to threaten anyone who even hints differently. This is not restricted to Muslim countries, but in the UK also, where a stupid cartoon motivated Muslims to go to the streets asking to behead 'infidels' (and in doing so, proving the cartoons legitimate point).

It's the inherent hatred of 'infidels' in Muslim circles that leaves me with no sympathy to any unfair criticism they receive. Most of the criticism is completely justified though.
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Exactly. I also think what makes it worse is that moderate Muslims, even in Western countries tend to side with the extremists more than they would with the country they are living in. The Danish cartoon is a prime example.

Cite one example where Christians or Jews rioted or started any fire when Jesus or God was unprofessionally depicted in a cartoon.
 
S.A.M. said:
Dr. Farish A Noor is a political scientist and historian at the Zentrum
Moderner Orient and guest Professor at Sunan Kalijaga Islamic University,
Jogjakarta. He is also one of the founders of the research site
http://www.othermalaysia.org

Since I do not have tiassa's facility for articulating my thoughts, I will leave the article to stand on its own merit.

Comments?
Click to expand...

Humans judge others groups on one criteria and only one criteria. Are they mean? If the answer is yes, then the more is learned about the group, the more they are hated. If the answer is no, then the more is learned about the group the more it is liked. Usually its the common extremists of a group whom get the most attention for this judgmenet. Muslims are the ones whom have to change their sterotype. They can modify their ideology so their extremism isn't destructive and / or is constructive (that is likely a permanent solution). The non-extremists can re-package themselves into a different group from their extrmists (it would require continual maintenance).
 
A matter of history

KennyJC said:

You can't compare what's happening with Muslims to blacks in America.
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I admit I don't intend it as a direct comparison: the comparison I'm putting forward is the difference between criticism coming from within or outside a group.

Consider Americans: many of my Christian neighbors complain about materialism among Americans, and that's fine. But if it's bin Laden? If it's just some Muslim cleric somewhere who isn't the prime suspect in a mass murder? If it's Communists? Socialists? Anarchists?

Largely, it is the Muslims themselves (motivated by extreme religious beliefs) who think they are superior and will go to great lengths to threaten anyone who even hints differently.
Click to expand...

This is not a "Muslim" or "Islamic" issue, but, as history suggests, a very human process. I would ask you to put "inherent hatred of 'infidels'" into an historical context. One of the greatest empires in human history collapsed less than one hundred years ago, and much of the progress of the Western world in the twentieth century depended on the exploitation of natural and human resources in those regions. At the heart of the "Muslim problem" are a number of circumstances that have historical precedent and correlation. The people have been exploited, tyrants have destroyed moderating voices, there is suffering and poverty, &c., &c. Any human society struggling under such circumstances will radicalize to a certain extent, and as we view separate Muslim communities in different regions of the world, operating under different socio-economic conditions, one common connection is that they share certain identity characteristics, considered sacred, with the people struggling under tyrants, in poverty, &c. These shared, sacred identity characteristics are very persuasive.

Consider how American Christians complained on behalf of their brethren in Communist countries during the Cold War. What they had going for them that Muslims don't was the fact of the U.S. itself; Christians were a social and political majority in a world superpower, and thus had powerful representation for their interests. The United States played with nuclear brinkmanship and proxy wars. Many of the Muslims at or near that aforementioned heart of the "Muslim problem" either endured or are descended from the generations that endured those proxy wars and other effects of the Cold War. The echoes of the Cold War have not completely faded. (The recent debacle in Liberia is an example of those echoes, and can still be heard despite the end of the fighting.)

The terms of conflict in which the current generation comes up will continue to have influence throughout their lives much the same as schoolyard bullying can influence someone's conscience as an adult. We will need to remember that over the coming years. The "Muslim problem" is in fact a human tragedy, and the only reason it is framed in the context of "Us vs. Them" is that we, the superpower and friends (the superfriends?) have gathered our prestige exploiting this outdated perspective; that is, we have defined the situation as such. There was a time when it was a relevant and even appropriate consideration, but this is the twenty-first century, and as the global community draws closer, it's time for us to realize that we are one species on one planet drifting through one Universe: we're all in this together.

Think of it this way: When we reach the point that Muslims are no more of a headache than Christians in the United States, will we be thankful?

I live in a nation that seeks to exacerbate the problem; I don't see the point in complaining when we succeed.
 
S.A.M. said:
"In one of these exchanges I was told the following: that ‘Islam is a fascist, woman-hating, Christian-killing, gay-bashing macho male ideology of hatred that was built on fourteen centuries of conquest and bloodshed, murder and rape. That is why there cannot be integration of Muslims into Europe, because the Muslims that we have here are the savages of the Arab world who are barbaric, violent and brutal. They do not believe in reason and the Enlightenment and Islamic civilisation has not produced anything scientific, rational or humane.’ Try substituting the word ‘Muslim’ for ‘blacks’ and one would see how far-fetched and racist such claims really are." Dr. Farish A Noor

Since I do not have tiassa's facility for articulating my thoughts, ...
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Interesting that you mention Tiassa ....for his viewpoint, try substituting the word "Muslim" for "cop". Check out if "articulate" posts about cops in the USA and you'll see what stereotyping really means!! :D

Baron Max
 
you can't talk to a muslim about Islam....you just can't, they think that they always right...I used to be one of them, only muslims see the light, and the others live in darkness.
 
Themselves to blame? Islam is like Christianity, both can be viewed.


No, the ones to blame are extremists. Extremists, from any religion. The pilgrims of the Americas, Queen Mary of England are just two examples of Christian extremism.

And it's simply that. It's politics, and world that affects your view. It makes you think and want to "defend" your land with "Jihad". Yet, it is only a twisted view of the true word of God, one which can take to any religion.
 
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