Split:Does DNA change?

[Exhumed]

I started a thread with this, but there is more...so I'll go find it...

"I wrote this into the topic of another thread and thought it was so interesting it should get a thread of its own!!!

It starts like this:

For over 15 years I have been aware that DNA mutates and changes over time. This awareness became clearer as time passed by. This morning I was reading a fascinating book on the bus on the way to work (I prefer the bus...I get to read then, whereas if I drive I don't). The book is named:
Energy Medicine in Therapeutics and Human Performance, by James Oschman...PhD.

That DNA mutates and changes over time is accepted, but these changes are small. In almost all organisms, however, DNA is renowned for keeping changes minimal.

The majority of mutational changes are not noticeable. This can be because they are a single base pair change, which more often than not, will code for the same amino acid, and produce no functional change. Other times it will code for a different amino acid, which may or may not change the function of a protein, and if it does change it does not always lead to a detectable change. Changes that do end up being significant are almost always bad changes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/deleterious_mutations).

The time it takes cancer to develop in humans should give an idea of how long it can sometimes take for DNA changes to account for a noticeable change (humans not exposing themselves to above average levels of mutagens).

I discovered this morning how fast the DNA changes...3,000,000 times per a second!!! I finally know know how fast the DNA is mutating at a minimum. I say minimum, because between each change the amount of change may vary, one bit of change might be very little compared to the next. If my math is correct this means there are 259,200,000,000 DNA changes in a single day.

The changes that you previously mentioned are mostly not lasting changes. Physical perturbations will come and go. It might make a very short term change in DNA, but for the most part it will not alter the function in systems.
So those things are not real changes.

I will quote the book a little on this:
"Shang (1989) compared acupuncture points with developmental organizing centers and singular points. A singular point is a place where a very small change in one parameter will cause a huge change in another. In the past, such phase transitions in living systems were examined by a combination of thermodynamic, general systems, and information theories, but these approaches proved inadequate. One reason is that biological systems frequently show phase transitions that achieve something that many scientist have been reluctant to accept. Living systems simply do not obey the second law of thermodynamics. They are syntropic (Szent-Gyorgyi 1974) rather than entropic, and they have the tendency to perfect themselves. They might even be called purposeful (Haken 1973).

The second law of thermodynamics is, and always will be obeyed. Anyone telling you differently should be avoided.

 

[Jozen-Bo]

I'm sorry but that is just complete bullshit.. :shrug:

Wow are we ever slow?
What qualifications do you have?
Do you know who George Oschman is?
Someone who is FAR, FAR, FAR more qualified then you!
Its easy to write a 1 liner to put down a entire life's work of research and study, but its not easy to spend a life working and researching as Oschman has done. I can no longer trust your opinion, as you comment reveals how thoughtless you are. How shocking! Enmos.....wake up!!!

OK...I will except that there are those like Enmos whose DNA is out-dated. But mine isn't! And your statement is the biggest pile of crap I have read in a long, long time. There are still those here who compose themselves with intelligence, but I am starting to wonder about you, you have no regard for science based on this statement...no reason to claim your awareness on it if you slander PhD Scientists who put a life time of hard work into their result...I thought spidergoat posts nonsense, but you take the trophy!

Let me return you words to you:
I'm sorry but that is (the reply of enmos) just complete bullshit..

As to the follow-up information, I am going to need more time to find it as I forgot where I left it...but it is there...and if I need to I can simply get the book out and quote it again.

After reading your garbage I grow tired!

I am going to get some sleep now!

 

[Jozen-Bo]

Laa Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Oh...wait...I am not the fat lady! But I am going to simply re-quote...I am getting the book now...

 

[Jozen-Bo]

Here...I found it!


"Using the largest and fastest IBM computers available at the time, Clementi created virtual models of one turn of the DNA helix within the computer. In these models, the atoms comprising a molecule move about under the influence of their own kinetic energy and the forces exerted on them by surrounding ions and water. With this molecular dynamic approach, the model never converges on a single conformation. Instead, the molecular model in the computer continuously changes and moves about in space. The various atoms within the molecule are visualized as clouds of electrons that are readily polarized by electric fields of nearby water and ions. The DNA structure changes 3,000,000 times per a second."
-James Oschman, PhD
Energy Medicine in Therapeutics and Human Performance

 

[ElectricFetus]

Jozen-Bo,

Just because someone may be more qualified or more knowledgeable in a subject over another person does not mean they are right, they could be completely wrong and the ignorant person could be right. The qualities of the argument provided means nothing, rather it is the qualities of the argument its self.

 

[Exhumed]

Here...I found it!


"Using the largest and fastest IBM computers available at the time, Clementi created virtual models of one turn of the DNA helix within the computer. In these models, the atoms comprising a molecule move about under the influence of their own kinetic energy and the forces exerted on them by surrounding ions and water. With this molecular dynamic approach, the model never converges on a single conformation. Instead, the molecular model in the computer continuously changes and moves about in space. The various atoms within the molecule are visualized as clouds of electrons that are readily polarized by electric fields of nearby water and ions. The DNA structure changes 3,000,000 times per a second."
-James Oschman, PhD
Energy Medicine in Therapeutics and Human Performance

These "changes" will not amount to a change in DNA functionality. It is natural that DNA will be constantly perturbed by random molecular forces, but to no net effect.

 

[Jozen-Bo]

Jozen-Bo,

Just because someone may be more qualified or more knowledgeable in a subject over another person does not mean they are right, they could be completely wrong and the ignorant person could be right. The qualities of the argument provided means nothing, rather it is the qualities of the argument its self.

You obviously don't know who George Oschman is either! Much of the information is built on FACT! Not guess work. The 3,000,000 changes per a second...FACT! Not guess work!

 

[Jozen-Bo]

These "changes" will not amount to a change in DNA functionality. It is natural that DNA will be constantly perturbed by random molecular forces, but to no net effect.

I cannot agree with this, no matter how hard I try! If you change anything you change everything...this is basic logic. The functions themselves are changing 3,000,000 times per a second. That is some very fast updating. Off course, if One's life force is low and they are easily mislead, then these changes could be degrading instead of self perfecting. I do not intend to be mislead into accepting this, as the cells follow the Mind! If you don't believe in yourself...how do you WIN? If you don't believe in your cells and health, you are prone to getting sick easier...this has been proven! Our thoughts and feelings play a major role in our health and well being! Why do you make changes as "changes"? These are real changes and that is period!

.

 

[Jozen-Bo]

It should be noted that if DNA was peptidyl instead of phosphate link and if DNA was quadruple helix instead of doubled then the rate of mutation and thus the rate of evolution would be seriously hindered. DNA is perfect for life on earth, if it was to unstable life would mutate too fast to survive, it it was too stable life would not be able to adapt fast enough.

This sounds philosophical, but in essence I agree!

 

[S.A.M.]

The functions themselves are changing 3,000,000 times per a second.

What changes in functionality have you seen?

 

[Enmos]

Here...I found it!


"Using the largest and fastest IBM computers available at the time, Clementi created virtual models of one turn of the DNA helix within the computer. In these models, the atoms comprising a molecule move about under the influence of their own kinetic energy and the forces exerted on them by surrounding ions and water. With this molecular dynamic approach, the model never converges on a single conformation. Instead, the molecular model in the computer continuously changes and moves about in space. The various atoms within the molecule are visualized as clouds of electrons that are readily polarized by electric fields of nearby water and ions. The DNA structure changes 3,000,000 times per a second."
-James Oschman, PhD
Energy Medicine in Therapeutics and Human Performance

Argh ! ANY molecule moves in that way.

 

[Jozen-Bo]

DNA has a large reserve capacity for repair, which is mediated by endonuclease repair enzymes. Much of DNA damage is cumulative and reflects the balance between aging and health, ie they become more visible with age, since evolutionarily, keeping the organism alive has priority over keeping him healthy for as long as he lives.

Which is why we are seeing a greater preponderance of age related chronic diseases today, many of which reflect the accumulated damage of a lifetime and not a spontaneous change in the functionality of the organism's DNA.

...computational biology work ...has shown how human repair enzymes recognize a common form of DNA damage called an abasic lesion. These lesions occur when a stretch of DNA loses one of its constituent bases, leaving a gap in the chain. Such lesions arise spontaneously more than 10,000 times per day in every cell. They can also be caused by exposure to pesticides, food mutagens, and ionizing radiation from the sun. If unrepaired, the damage can lead to disease, notably cancer, through a mutation in the genetic code.

Cells have a set of repair enzymes (proteins) that scan DNA looking for damage such as abasic lesions. In humans, the major enzyme responsible for repairing abasic DNA is the endonuclease Ape1. Livermore scientists have been addressing the question of how repair proteins such as Ape1 recognize and bind specifically to damaged DNA.​

From what I have learned, damage releases waves of signals that tell the cells to regenerate. Without small amounts of damage, the system will break down faster, and with too much damage, the system won't be able to keep up with the repair work. Moderated damage is one of the means by which DNA updates itself!

 

[S.A.M.]

From what I have learned, damage releases waves of signals that tell the cells to regenerate. Without small amounts of damage, the system will break down faster, and with too much damage, the system won't be able to keep up with the repair work. Moderated damage is one of the means by which DNA updates itself!

Cancer?

 

[Jozen-Bo]

What changes in functionality have you seen?

These changes are too minute to observe from one second to the next! Over time they can be seen very easily. I will give a number of example!!!

Weight trainers who regularly damage their muscle cells regenerate powerful forms. This is change of function as it is increased beyond what it was prior.

A student who studies day and night. The brain is stressed out, the cells are damaged (thus the head ache of too much heavy study). Over time the student becomes a professor!

The yogas who do amazing things didn't start out that way, they developed their abilities consciously over time...their cells changing and gaining new functions.

If we take 1/3,000,000 of a change and look for obvious results we have a difficult task at hand. If we take 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000/3,000,000
the results will be more obvious!

The functions change in a number of ways over time. From increasing capacity to gaining new abilities outright. When the Mind changes as it learns, it gains many new functions for thinking. We are talking about a collection of cells...which include memories, which are found in the DNA!

I personally have noted that my eyes have periodically gained the function to see in total black after damaging them in modest amounts using certain techniques which should be obvious to the older members here. No, I don't control this, but when the function is active, it is functioning. I wasn't always like this. One who masters Yoga and can display many functions not previously possible (thus not a function) also demonstrates this.

 

[Jozen-Bo]

Argh ! ANY molecule moves in that way.

Then reality itself is updating itself!

 

[Enmos]

Jozen-Bo,
you specially bought that book so you could quote something that would indicate that DNA changes (mutates, as you refer to it yourself) 3,000,000 times a second.
Now you show us a quote that says that DNA vibrates 3M times a second.. :shrug:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_of_freedom_(physics_and_chemistry)

Here...I found it!


"Using the largest and fastest IBM computers available at the time, Clementi created virtual models of one turn of the DNA helix within the computer. In these models, the atoms comprising a molecule move about under the influence of their own kinetic energy and the forces exerted on them by surrounding ions and water. With this molecular dynamic approach, the model never converges on a single conformation. Instead, the molecular model in the computer continuously changes and moves about in space. The various atoms within the molecule are visualized as clouds of electrons that are readily polarized by electric fields of nearby water and ions. The DNA structure changes 3,000,000 times per a second."
-James Oschman, PhD
Energy Medicine in Therapeutics and Human Performance

 

[Enmos]

Then reality itself is updating itself!

Are you serious ?

 

[draqon]

Its like... my body is so evil! Why does it make me want things that are bad for it.

to test your power of will. this life is not about the body, it is about you exerting your own will power on events against the flow of this world.

 

[Jozen-Bo]

Cancer?

Cancer is not damage. It is when the equilibrial wave within the cell is off balance and the signal that tells the cell what to do doesn't tell it the right info. Instead of saying stay, the signal says duplicate. The cell duplicates into more cells that resemble the original cell. As they gather, the signal from the cluster gets louder and other cells risk danger of losing their equilibrium balance as they synchronize with the bad signal more and more. Then their waves start emitting duplication signals and the cancer spreads from one organ to another, eventually killing the host if it is not treated. Cancer is based in waves, that is where we will find the cure. Understand the waves of our Living Matrix and curing cancer will be easy.

In a healthy system, one that believes in itself and is filled with inner waves of communication and awareness is far more immune to cancer. The cancer cells know they are screwed up and commit cellular suicide before duplicating. As they die they release a blast of radiation that spreads through the system and informs the other cells on a level of patterned information (helping them to prepare against future threat). Our body must constantly communicate with itself in order to survive even one day. Shut down the communication and we die quickly as cancer or disease or injury or degrading takes over.

 

[Jozen-Bo]

Are you serious ?

In a relative sense of the word yes! Take that away and no! It would appear that the function of everything is changing from one second to the next, as time itself takes toll. But, the difference is that our DNA does it with more purpose then..say a rock. We are changing into more intelligent forms inwardly. Well...not everyone...those who are lazy will degrade, those who work will reap the benefits of their actions.

Are you lazy?