Spinoff Thread:What Happens To The Conscious Awareness When We Die

[Fraggle Rocker]

I'm of the opinion where it's factual case that some are "Memorialized", so to speak, and live eternally through a casting, you might say; that since there presence is physically absent, you desire them. Sorrow, remorse, missing someone. It's as if you _request_ their physical presence. Although no longer viable, you have them in your mind. And, has been my observation, they often cross the lips. This may be an attempt at contact, maybe. It's rather obvious that you intend to recall things, as you will. So, in fact, when you 'join' them again, you will have not "ceased" them. It's a rather strange notion. But, maybe being aware of there existence when they stop: Implies that there's a continuation. Of sorts...

Indeed. For example Jews don't believe in an afterlife. (There's something in their scripture about god eventually coming down and reanimating the corpses, but few of them factor that into their life plans other than not practicing cremation.) They believe that they live on in the results of what they've accomplished (or destroyed) and the memories of those who loved them (or hated them). It gives them a powerful motivation to try to live right. The Confucians have a very similar tradition.

just because i can't prove it, doesn't mean it's not true.

I'm a scientist. You don't have to prove anything to me because I know scientific theories cannot be proven true. All you have to do is show me some solid evidence to indicate that the probability of your theory being true is high enough to take seriously. It doesn't even have to be high enough to be "true beyond a reasonable doubt" and take its place in the scientific canon. There just has to be enough substantiation for it to be a plausible hypothesis worth entertaining. And you have failed to do that. At this point it ranks with Hobbits and perpetual motion machines. Life does not have enough bandwidth for us to entertain absolutely every preposterous, unsupported theory that every human being invents. I'm sorry.

don't be overcome with scientific hubris. science can't explain everything... not today at least.

Yet in 500 years science is the only discipline that has consistently explained things. Spirituality has explained absolutely nothing satisfactorily because it violates the scientific method. It insists that we believe things on the basis of faith only, without any empirical evidence.

in the future science will explain many things that are considered paranormal today, but it takes time, have patience and be openminded.

One or two? Perhaps. "Many?" I doubt it. The scientific method is not so flawed that "many" of its theories are overthrown.

matter eternally changes, but it's never destroyed. it never ceases to be. what makes you think we are different?

We aren't. The matter in our bodies never ceases to exist.

eternal life is not against any natural laws.

Your reasoning is invalid. Life is not matter.

ok, here's proof: there are photographs of ghosts. proof 2: astral projections, NDE etc.

Oh please. Take your pseudoscience to the Crackpottery boards. That stuff has been debunked a hundred times over. You're talking to a long-time member of CSICOP. I've seen many of those "paranormal phenomena" demonstrated and then their true workings revealed. Some of it is honest misinterpretation of observations, but a distressingly high portion of it is simply fraud.

 

[LORD_VOLDEMORT]

My whole thing is what are the possibilities in your opinion that there are things that science is unable to reach,perhaps due to there being evidence of a programmer or not.Say matter,atoms,everything came from a programmer,had a beginning or such.Isnt there an argument that states most humans do not even have the ability to use there brain to full capacity,what and who put limitations to this.

 

[Myles]

My whole thing is what are the possibilities in your opinion that there are things that science is unable to reach,perhaps due to there being evidence of a programmer or not.Say matter,atoms,everything came from a programmer,had a beginning or such.Isnt there an argument that states most humans do not even have the ability to use there brain to full capacity,what and who put limitations to this.

SOME people don't use their brains; they are self-limited

 

[LORD_VOLDEMORT]

SOME people don't use their brains; they are self-limited

True
But we are limited with knowledge,even today we are unable to discover cures to certain diseases or such.Some poster said something awhile back that stated science is ever growing or an constant thing.So i still ask how could we possibly say we KNOW,especially when we have never been in the position to REALLY KNOW in some areas.

 

[Yorda]

Just compare it to the horror of knowing you'll never escape life. Never get the final release of no longer existing. In time, a man would go mad and do anything for death.

the reason we haven't become mad or bored is because we have the ability to forget. we have forgotten our past lives and our immortality.

I'm a scientist. You don't have to prove anything to me because I know scientific theories cannot be proven true.

some theories can be proven true. once there was a theory that the earth was round, and now we've proved it with satellites.

All you have to do is show me some solid evidence to indicate that the probability of your theory being true is high enough to take seriously.

what kind of solid evidence would make you believe? ghosts are not solid, you know.

Spirituality has explained absolutely nothing satisfactorily because it violates the scientific method. It insists that we believe things on the basis of faith only, without any empirical evidence.

spiritual things were discovered by ancient scientists. they didn't just study the physical world, but also the spiritual.

One or two? Perhaps. "Many?" I doubt it. The scientific method is not so flawed that "many" of its theories are overthrown.

that many theories will be overthrown doesn't mean that the scientific method is flawed, it just means that scientists haven't had enough time to study nature. 500 years is nothing, the ancient scientists studied the world 500 times longer than that.

Your reasoning is invalid. Life is not matter.

what is it then?

I've seen many of those "paranormal phenomena" demonstrated and then their true workings revealed. Some of it is honest misinterpretation of observations, but a distressingly high portion of it is simply fraud.

their "true workings" cannot be revealed because you can't prove a negative... you can't prove that paranormal things don't exist, you can only prove that they do... they can't be proven now because they are too rare, but to deny the existence of magic is to deny history. why does history speak of sorcerers and necromancers?

 

[Myles]

Yorda,

If you have forgotten your past lives, how do you know you had any ?

 

[Aivar]

You are mistaken. It is Jah who first created the first ancient scientists, and revealed to them the TRUE truth. The latter ancient scientists just took to the wrong gods. The first ancient scientists preferred today's modern science, which we have once again reached.

 

[Myles]

can you discredit his argument?

Now, you are joking. The onus is on someone claiming that life is eternal to support that view. How many times does this need to be said ?

 

[LORD_VOLDEMORT]

Yorda,

If you have forgotten your past lives, how do you know you had any ?

Could you prove he didnt?

 

[LORD_VOLDEMORT]

You are mistaken. It is Jah who first created the first ancient scientists, and revealed to them the TRUE truth. The latter ancient scientists just took to the wrong gods. The first ancient scientists preferred today's modern science, which we have once again reached.

There are ancient civilizations that are said to practice immortality.

 

[Aivar]

Voldemort, have you ever questioned the meaning of words? Maybe they don't really mean what you think they do. You have assumed that words mean one thing or another since you were a kid. It seems to hold up. But you don't KNOW it... and you don't have the solid proof, either.

It's a pretty precice parallel.


The ancient civilizations who practiced immortality came later. They were already taken in by mindless entertainment (like the Egyptians). The First Ancient Scientists realized our individual's mortality and that the closest we got to immortality would be becoming one with everything else and let go of our "self". IE die.

 

[Yorda]

If you have forgotten your past lives, how do you know you had any ?

because it's logical and there is evidence.

i don't mean that you're wrong when you say that we only live once. both of us are right. truth is not one or the other, truth is what we believe, choose and want.

if you want eternal life, just believe that you're eternal, and you will be. eternity is in this moment, this life. past and future are illusions.

sincerely yours
the eternal (non)being

 

[madanthonywayne]

What we call consciousness is just a simplified name for a lot of chemical and electrical processes.

In other words, the complete and permanent cessation of "conscious awareness" is, precisely, what death is. "What happens to the conscious awareness when we die," is that it ceases to exist.

Suppose your consciousness is copied a moment before your death to a computer powerful enough to contain all the knowledge and all the thought processes of a human mind.

Are you dead? Is the computer program "you"?

Clearly the program would think it was you, and if there was no one else around vying for the title, I guess we could say it was. But what if a copy is made before your death? If the physical "you" is still around, everyone will consider the program a "copy".

Or how about this, you copy your consciousness to a computer and periodically "synch" your brain with the computer to keep it up to date.

Even better, if you're killed, they clone your body and upload your consciousness from the computer program to the new body.

Is that YOU?

 

[Myles]

Suppose your consciousness is copied a moment before your death to a computer powerful enough to contain all the knowledge and all the thought processes of a human mind.

Are you dead? Is the computer program "you"?

Clearly the program would think it was you, and if there was no one else around vying for the title, I guess we could say it was. But what if a copy is made before your death? If the physical "you" is still around, everyone will consider the program a "copy".

Or how about this, you copy your consciousness to a computer and periodically "synch" your brain with the computer to keep it up to date.

Even better, if you're killed, they clone your body and upload your consciousness from the computer program to the new body.

Is that YOU?

How do you define consciousness ?

 

[LORD_VOLDEMORT]

Suppose your consciousness is copied a moment before your death to a computer powerful enough to contain all the knowledge and all the thought processes of a human mind.

Are you dead? Is the computer program "you"?

Clearly the program would think it was you, and if there was no one else around vying for the title, I guess we could say it was. But what if a copy is made before your death? If the physical "you" is still around, everyone will consider the program a "copy".

Or how about this, you copy your consciousness to a computer and periodically "synch" your brain with the computer to keep it up to date.

Even better, if you're killed, they clone your body and upload your consciousness from the computer program to the new body.

Is that YOU?

wow.

 

[frisco]

Oh dear.

We can argue over this all day, but I'll agree with Fraggle Rocker and just give the most accepted _scientific_ answer:

Everything that "you" are is in your biochemical makeup. Consciousness arises from activity in your brain (that we aren't sure how specifically yet shouldn't matter; the fact that it has been localized to the brain is supported extremely well). When you die, activity in your brain ceases, and there is nothing. No darkness, no dreaming, no "I wish I wasn't dead," or cares at all. You won't notice, because there's nothing.

It's generally hard for us to imagine anything that isn't part of our experience, since the process isn't made explicit in our brains (and we can't imagine or acknowledge anything that isn't made explicit by neural activity, hence the basis for many neurological disorders; one nice example would be Anton's Syndrome when the blind refuse to realize that they're blind because they've lost all understanding of what "sight" is by having visual cortex destroyed), so its difficult to imagine what this "nothing" death would be. All I can say to everyone who can't believe that such a state is possible would be that it must be exactly what it was like for the millennia before you were born.

 

[Syzygys]

The exact same thing happens just like when you unplug a computer...

 

[Aivar]

But maybe the computer's self, the loyal self, goes to the place where all energy comes from? And when you plug it in again, the consciousness reenters the computer in the split second between the press and the power coming on?!?!

WHERE'S YOUR PROOF IT ISN'T SO??

 

[Defiant]

Where does consciousness go when a person is in coma?

 

[Aivar]

His conscious awareness is still within him, but not projected on the colorful canvas of mind.