SOUL - Who? What? Where?

[superluminal]

What is the wilder claim? That consciousness and self-awareness in it varying degrees is a simple byproduct of developing brains? Or that some never detected, completely unsupported by evidence, ethereal "essence" gives us these attributes?

Isn't it a bit revealing that by-and-large the level of intelligence and awareness in the animal kingdom is fairly well correlated with the brain size/body weight ratio?

 

[VitalOne]

What is the wilder claim? That consciousness and self-awareness in it varying degrees is a simple byproduct of developing brains? Or that some never detected, completely unsupported by evidence, ethereal "essence" gives us these attributes?

Isn't it a bit revealing that by-and-large the level of intelligence and awareness in the animal kingdom is fairly well correlated with the brain size/body weight ratio?

Not really, look at killer whales and other animals with larger brains. Dolphins are smarter than Chimpanzees in that Dolphins have language and Chimpanzee's dont have language, even though the Chimpanzee brain is much much closer to a human brain.

The bottom line is that there are many many mysteries and unknowns in neurology still

Whats the point of this argument anyway can anyone really design an experiment that verifies that soul does/doesn't exist? The idea of a soul is not far-fetched or irrational either, just an immaterial substance that interacts with the brain, and it doesn't even matter if it appears irrational, zero-point energy would appear irrational before you understood it

 

[lightgigantic]

theres no souls,if there were dont you think we all could comunicate with any/all the dead,since these are allegedly souls/spirits

A high school drop out could also say that there is no such things as electrons because if there were don't you think everyone wold have seen them bumping around and stuff

 

[superluminal]

Not really, look at killer whales and other animals with larger brains. Dolphins are smarter than Chimpanzees in that Dolphins have language and Chimpanzee's dont have language, even though the Chimpanzee brain is much much closer to a human brain.

Wow. You know more than most scientists.

The idea of a soul is not far-fetched or irrational either, just an immaterial substance that interacts with the brain, and it doesn't even matter if it appears irrational, zero-point energy would appear irrational before you understood it

Yet the idea of no-soul is irrational, right?

What a crock. That whole statement is irrational. And it's pretty stupid to use physical quantities that can be measured to support the idea of an unmeasurable "soul".

 

[superluminal]

A high school drop out could also say that there is no such things as electrons because if there were don't you think everyone wold have seen them bumping around and stuff

Are you really this stupid? I'd like to think better of my fellow humans, but you make it so hard.

 

[KennyJC]

Superflimsical... a highschool drop out could say that 100% of the things you just said was boolshit.

 

[lightgigantic]

Are you really this stupid? I'd like to think better of my fellow humans, but you make it so hard.

Obviously you missed the point

A person who is adverse to the processes of acquiring knowledge can be quite comfortably stabilized on their platform of ignorance.

If you think that science doesn't innvolve faith, its probably because you are so indoctrinated that you cannot see it

 

[VitalOne]

Wow. You know more than most scientists.

? Thats what scientists say you fool, go learn something, Killer Whales DO have larger brains than humans, Dolphins DO have language while Chimpanzee's DON'T

Yet the idea of no-soul is irrational, right?

Kind of. We know that our brains and bodies are made of electrons, how then can a certain arrangement of electrons causes consciousness? Remember all electrons basically act the same. That either must mean that electrons, also have consciousness or that consciousness itself is separate. Think about it, all your body and brain is an arrangement of atoms, that must mean that atoms must have consciousness to some degree to or it must mean that consciousness is separate. How can a certain arrangement of atoms with basically the same properties give rise to consciousness? We know that electrons do not feel, think, etc...but we do...

From the materialist standpoint we ARE the electrons, the protons, the neutrons that make up our body. How can those things in a certain arrangement cause consciousness itself, and if they do cause consciousness doesn't that mean that consciousness MUST be something separate, immaterial, etc....

What a crock. That whole statement is irrational. And it's pretty stupid to use physical quantities that can be measured to support the idea of an unmeasurable "soul".

Zero-point energy is far from easy to measure, however in time it was measurable to some degree. Due to the fact that zero-point energy was basically equal inside and outside, undetectable to the senses, etc....it was very difficult to measure

Before it was measured I'm sure you would've never believed it existed...

 

[lightgigantic]

I remember a film I saw once.

Basically there was this guy who goes to mars and the local martians kept him in a state of stupidity by having a beautiful perfectly humanoid woman robot dress him in her affections - anyway he caressed the back of her head and this circuit board sprung out - needless to say it spoiled the relationship.

The point is that the view that we are composed of matter alone is something that doesn't sit well with what we experience as "natural life"

 

[superluminal]

Superflimsical... a highschool drop out could say that 100% of the things you just said was boolshit.

Hi KennyJesusChrist. Are you implying that a highschool dropout can assess my shit as being binary in nature?

 

[superluminal]

Obviously you missed the point

Not really.

A person who is adverse to the processes of acquiring knowledge can be quite comfortably stabilized on their platform of ignorance.

Hey, that describes me to a tee. I had a knowledge processor once, but it sat under the sink for years. I finally got rid of it.

If you think that science doesn't innvolve faith, its probably because you are so indoctrinated that you cannot see it

Yes. That's it. Scientists only scrutinize and test and reject on the basis that it affirms their faith when years of research and experimentation indicate that they have a good approximation to the truth.

Science is all faith. And when you have no idea regarding how science proceeds, it's even more obvious that science involves faith.

Hey! I like this blind ignorance thing. The possibilities are endless!

 

[superluminal]

? Thats what scientists say you fool, go learn something, Killer Whales DO have larger brains than humans, Dolphins DO have language while Chimpanzee's DON'T

Scientists say dolphins have language and chimps don't? Could you do me tha favor of supporting that with a link or two?

Kind of. We know that our brains and bodies are made of electrons,

Among some other things...

how then can a certain arrangement of electrons causes consciousness?

How then can a non-arrangement of nothing cause consciousness?

Remember all electrons basically act the same. That either must mean that electrons, also have consciousness or that consciousness itself is separate.

This is an astounding conclusion you've reached. All bricks act basically the same That either must mean that bricks, also have the essence of "wall" or that "wallness" is seperate. Ah. Yes.

Think about it, all your body and brain is an arrangement of atoms, that must mean that atoms must have consciousness to some degree to or it must mean that consciousness is separate.

You have taken your already rock-solid argument to even firmer ground here. Thank you.

How can a certain arrangement of atoms with basically the same properties give rise to consciousness? We know that electrons do not feel, think, etc...but we do...

How can a pile of bricks give rise to a wall... We know that a brick is not a wall, but somehow the combination of bricks... Nah. I don't buy it either.

From the materialist standpoint we ARE the electrons, the protons, the neutrons that make up our body. How can those things in a certain arrangement cause consciousness itself, and if they do cause consciousness doesn't that mean that consciousness MUST be something separate, immaterial, etc....

Of course. You have now perfected your argument. Please do not mess with perfection, I beg you.

Zero-point energy is far from easy to measure, however in time it was measurable to some degree. Due to the fact that zero-point energy was basically equal inside and outside, undetectable to the senses, etc....it was very difficult to measure

I'm sorry. I've seen highscool students measure it via the Casimir Effect. You don't really know what "zer0-point" energy is, right? C'mon, admit it. If I say "quantum ground-state" are you intimidated?

Before it was measured I'm sure you would've never believed it existed...

And you would? Do you regularly believe in things that not only haven't been measured, but can't be measured?

 

[superluminal]

I remember a film I saw once.

Basically there was this guy who goes to mars and the local martians kept him in a state of stupidity by having a beautiful perfectly humanoid woman robot dress him in her affections - anyway he caressed the back of her head and this circuit board sprung out - needless to say it spoiled the relationship.

I once tried to build a girl robot.

The point is that the view that we are composed of matter alone is something that doesn't sit well with what we experience as "natural life"

No. The point is that the view that we are composed of matter alone is the only thing that sits well with what we observe. It may not sit well with you and your theist compatriots, but that is just your inability to abandon your primitive anthropocentric view of the universe. "I think, therefore I am special". Neural networks regarding themselves are understandably prone to thinking of themselves as special.

 

[VitalOne]

Scientists say dolphins have language and chimps don't? Could you do me tha favor of supporting that with a link or two?

http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct04/smarter.html

Dolphins are better at language than Chimpanzees despite that the physical brain of Chimpanzees is much much closer to a human's brain

Among some other things...


How then can a non-arrangement of nothing cause consciousness?


This is an astounding conclusion you've reached. All bricks act basically the same That either must mean that bricks, also have the essence of "wall" or that "wallness" is seperate. Ah. Yes.


You have taken your already rock-solid argument to even firmer ground here. Thank you.


How can a pile of bricks give rise to a wall... We know that a brick is not a wall, but somehow the combination of bricks... Nah. I don't buy it either.

Yeah, but the wall is made of bricks, and has the inherent qualities of the brick.

Our brain is made of atoms, this must mean according to you that matter is thought, sensation, feeling, consciousness. If consciousness is different from matter is must be immaterial like electromagnetism, gravity, etc...

Remember according to you we ARE the atoms that make us up...so what is consciousness? Consciousness must be the atoms that make us too....but that makes no sense...all of a sudden the idea of a soul isn't far-fetched anymore

If you say that a certain rearrangement of atoms cause our consciousness you are still saying that consciousness is separate and different from the atoms themselves....so what is consciousness?

I'm sorry. I've seen highscool students measure it via the Casimir Effect. You don't really know what "zer0-point" energy is, right? C'mon, admit it. If I say "quantum ground-state" are you intimidated?


And you would? Do you regularly believe in things that not only haven't been measured, but can't be measured?

The casmir affect at first was very difficult to measure until advances in nanotechnology.

 

[superluminal]

Remember according to you we ARE the atoms that make us up...so what is consciousness? Consciousness must be the atoms that make us too....but that makes no sense...all of a sudden the idea of a soul isn't far-fetched anymore

If you say that a certain rearrangement of atoms cause our consciousness you are still saying that consciousness is separate and different from the atoms themselves....so what is consciousness?

Ok, look. When I write a program to control a large peice of construction equipment, the program is made of ones and zeros. The only thing that gives it complexity and functionality is the arrangement of ones and zeros. See? The human brain has a particularly complex arrangement of computing elements (neurons with axons, dendrites...). It's not far fecthed at all to consider that what we percieve about ourselves as consciousness is the combined result of the self-referential network of the brain. Right?

 

[lightgigantic]

Superliminal

“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
I remember a film I saw once.

Basically there was this guy who goes to mars and the local martians kept him in a state of stupidity by having a beautiful perfectly humanoid woman robot dress him in her affections - anyway he caressed the back of her head and this circuit board sprung out - needless to say it spoiled the relationship. ”


I once tried to build a girl robot.

Really? Did she keep you stabilized on a platform of stupidity as well?
Obviously it wasn't a very satisfactory relationship huh?

“ The point is that the view that we are composed of matter alone is something that doesn't sit well with what we experience as "natural life" ”


No. The point is that the view that we are composed of matter alone is the only thing that sits well with what we observe.

there are many persons who dedicate their lives to the studying of matter, and it certainly doesn't sit well with them

It may not sit well with you and your theist compatriots, but that is just your inability to abandon your primitive anthropocentric view of the universe.

anyway - I would argue that building a girl robot is quite primitive - I mean how many billions of women are there already - plenty of fish in the ocean

Studies show that there are slightly more females bown then males - why would a male have to rig up some battery operated piece of plastic to find the suitable match?

"I think, therefore I am special".

"I think that I am special because I can build a piece of plastic and metal that crudely resembles a woman" makes me more special?

Neural networks regarding themselves are understandably prone to thinking of themselves as special.

Wll first you would have to establish that we are nothing more than neural networks - kind of difficult since there is not even a working definition for consciousness at the moment in cognitive science and neurology - in other words , materially speaking, the "self" doesn't exist.
What do you think about that?
To begin with if you even think about it you are contravening the limits of the current axioms in material science

 

[superluminal]

Wll first you would have to establish that we are nothing more than neural networks - kind of difficult since there is not even a working definition for consciousness at the moment in cognitive science and neurology - in other words , materially speaking, the "self" doesn't exist.
What do you think about that?
To begin with if you even think about it you are contravening the limits of the current axioms in material science

Do you not see that you have just destroyed your own arguments? I'm beginning to doubt your intellect, just a tiny bit.

Well first you would have to establish that we are definitely in posession of a soul - kind of difficult since there is not even a working definition for "soul" at the moment and virtually no way to investigate "it" even with a definition - in other words , theistically speaking, the "soul" doesn't exist.
What do you think about that?

What do you think about studies that link brain activity, as imaged with high speed PET scans, to various mental states as reported by the subjects? What do you think of instances where a portion of the brain is damaged and the patient's personality completely changes? Or the completely lose their sense of "self" and can't even recognize themselves in a mirror?

Has their "soul" leaked out? Has their vital essence abandoned them?

Why does anyone feel the need to reach so hard for a soul, when, contrary to your assertions and those of other ill informed scientists, philosophers, and theists, there is indeed much evidence that we, our self, our consciousness, is indeed "just" material combinatorics?

 

[VitalOne]

Ok, look. When I write a program to control a large peice of construction equipment, the program is made of ones and zeros. The only thing that gives it complexity and functionality is the arrangement of ones and zeros. See? The human brain has a particularly complex arrangement of computing elements (neurons with axons, dendrites...). It's not far fecthed at all to consider that what we percieve about ourselves as consciousness is the combined result of the self-referential network of the brain. Right?

Well if what you're saying is true that must mean that consciousness is an illusion, and that there is no "I" or self, no doer, no free will, and that only nature is the doer.

Still doesn't explain much, how is this illusion of consciousness of generated

 

[lightgigantic]

superluminal

Well first you would have to establish that we are definitely in posession of a soul - kind of difficult since there is not even a working definition for "soul" at the moment and virtually no way to investigate "it" even with a definition - in other words , theistically speaking, the "soul" doesn't exist.
What do you think about that?

Not surprising since the methodology you are working out of to determine the soul doesn't even see consciousness - so even if you are thinking about this it indicates that this methodology is vastly incomplete

What do you think about studies that link brain activity, as imaged with high speed PET scans, to various mental states as reported by the subjects? What do you think of instances where a portion of the brain is damaged and the patient's personality completely changes?

Still there is no evidence that the brain is the final last word in determining our sense of "self" - all that your refer to in neurology is how the brain is "driving", it says nothing about the phenomena of driving- for instance an engine can be faulty in a car and thus cause the car to drive in a faulty fashion - but even a car with a perfect engine goes no where without a driver - in other words the phenomena of a car moving, while utilised according to the functioning of the engine, is actually dependent on the driver.

Or the completely lose their sense of "self" and can't even recognize themselves in a mirror?

But the driver is still there - after all if there was no consciousness there would be no "self" to wonder about the "self"

Has their "soul" leaked out? Has their vital essence abandoned them?

Obviously not since they still have a sense of self

Why does anyone feel the need to reach so hard for a soul, when, contrary to your assertions and those of other ill informed scientists, philosophers, and theists, there is indeed much evidence that we, our self, our consciousness, is indeed "just" material combinatorics?

Well maybe you should just deliver the goods and tell us all what this evidence is that consciousness can be explained by a reductionist view rather than just alluding to it through bold opinion - Imagine all these qualified and experienced researchers out there unable to reconcile the notion of consciousness and you have it in your pocket - I want to be able to say that I heard it first on sci forums

 

[superluminal]

Well if what you're saying is true that must mean that consciousness is an illusion, and that there is no "I" or self, no doer, no free will, and that only nature is the doer.

Seems likely, dosen't it?

Still doesn't explain much, how is this illusion of consciousness of generated

One of the hottest questions in neuroscience.