Some facts about guns in the US

The argument that people suffering from mental illnesses should not be allowed to have firearms is absurd, and demonstrates how little people in general understand these things. Especially in the united states, where people are pushed guns as a right.

In essence, when you are defending a right to own a gun with an argument like that, you are assuming that others (in this case, people with mental illnesses) will just stroll in and give up their rights happily at the next doctor's appointment. Of course they will, who wouldn't want to be treated as a second class citizen...considering people still view mental illness like it's the black death. If anything, that will be just one more procedure to make mental illness an even more shameful thing for anyone to admit. That's how you make those really desperate and tired people who will not care for anything.

So you think its better to hand the means to commit suicide on a silver platter to them? maybe shrinks should be handing out shotguns at the first appointment right?

Suicide is MUCH more likely when the means of a quick death are readily to hand, people are more likely to use a gun than a knife or a rope (pills are a different matter). Furthermore the more violent the attempt the less likely that anyone can fix it, a cut wrist has a chance, pills certainly do, a head blown off with a shotgun?

All your idiocy will do is mean that shrinks will be much more likely to commit because if they know that there is easy access to a gun then rather than being able to treat in the community they will have anyone claiming suicidal idiations committed
 
From a Newspaper in my "neck of the woods"...

suicide attempts committed with guns are fatal more than 90% of the time

Firearm use is the most common method of suicide among men-56.8%, as of 2007

In the U.S. 65 children and teens are shot with firearms and 8 die each day.

1/3rd of USA homes with kids younger than 18 have a firearm
More than 40% of gun owning households with kids. store guns unlocked and 25% with their guns loaded

And in Florida 1,195 children and teens were shot and were killed with a firearms between 1999 and 2007
 
So you think its better to hand the means to commit suicide on a silver platter to them? maybe shrinks should be handing out shotguns at the first appointment right?

No I don't. I guess that's what we are effectively doing, and the suggestion doesn't do a thing about it either way.
 
The argument that people suffering from mental illnesses should not be allowed to have firearms is absurd, and demonstrates how little people in general understand these things. Especially in the united states, where people are pushed guns as a right.

In essence, when you are defending a right to own a gun with an argument like that, you are assuming that others (in this case, people with mental illnesses) will just stroll in and give up their rights happily at the next doctor's appointment. Of course they will, who wouldn't want to be treated as a second class citizen...considering people still view mental illness like it's the black death. If anything, that will be just one more procedure to make mental illness an even more shameful thing for anyone to admit. That's how you make those really desperate and tired people who will not care for anything.

Yes, let's treat everyone equally in terms of guns to avoid hurting their feelings or sense of worth. Hand little Johnny a 9mm because we don't want children thinking they're lesser than any adults. Lets give the guy with severe dementia a shotty, so when his brother comes in to pick him up for his doctor's appointment and he doesn't remember who he is and mistakes him for a burgular, he can defend himself. Don't forget ex-convicts, that group is really discriminated against in society, don't forget to give them their fair share of weaponry.

I'm just joking around with ad absurdum, but that is the type of reasoning if you bring your argument to its end. The idea is not equality, but equity.
 
Yes, let's treat everyone equally in terms of guns to avoid hurting their feelings or sense of worth. Hand little Johnny a 9mm because we don't want children thinking they're lesser than any adults. Lets give the guy with severe dementia a shotty, so when his brother comes in to pick him up for his doctor's appointment and he doesn't remember who he is and mistakes him for a burgular, he can defend himself. Don't forget ex-convicts, that group is really discriminated against in society, don't forget to give them their fair share of weaponry.

I'm just joking around with ad absurdum, but that is the type of reasoning if you bring your argument to its end. The idea is not equality, but equity.

No, actually you're just still not getting it and it shows. Who on earth would want to be diagnosed and "declared" mentally incompetent if it means you are revoked rights because of it? If anything, that won't keep people from obtaining firearms, it will keep people away obtaining treatment. An overwhelming majority of severely depressed people as an example, are diagnosed. Mainly because it's still a pretty stigmatizing thing. I'm sure the idea of declaring people unfit for rights will change that, and people will stroll into mental health facilities en masse, to declare themselves incompetent.

That's not supporting anyone's right to carry firearms either, it's just stating that the original argument is pretty dumb,ineffective, and dead before it was even conceived.

Unless of course, one plans for a mandatory evaluation before any permit is given. Good luck with that one.
I'd also be interested in hearing from anyone that actually supports this little mental health catchphrase, that what actually constitutes a serious enough mental health issue that your firearm rights should be revoked? Mild depression?
 
Yes, because people who have severe dementia would rather be able to carry a gun than go out to seek the proper treatment. It is obvious that being mentally ill makes you different from the normal population, when has that ever NOT been the case. The issue is not to sugarcoat it and act like they are normal in every regard (including equal access to firearms), but to address the problem head on, understand that it does affect their ability in many areas (whether or not they are fit to carry firearms) and then either to improve their current state or cope with their disorder in a proper manner.

Yes, mental illness is stigmatized in America. But you share the same mentality that is avoiding the issue and making it taboo. The idea is not to say "Hey, you're just as normal as us", but "Hey, you're suffering from mental illness, but you'll get better from it." One of the reasons why so many people go through depression but are undiagnosed, is because they think it is a normal phase of life. That everyone goes through it one time or another, and it is just an unspoken thing that you should suffer alone. This mindset is supported by your reasoning since you don't want to alarm them or make them feel bad for having it. If someone found out they had cancer, they would run to the hospital and try to seek treatment as soon as possible. Because it is something you need to seek help for. Although sometimes not to that extent, mental illnesses such as depression must be taken seriously, and not be taken lightly.

Like I said, not equality, but equity. Rights are not on equal terms to everyone already, just like we don't give children the right to bear arms, people must be fit to claim their right. You may think this is an infringement upon people's rights, but bring your argument to its end, and you'll see how absurd it is.
 
Capt K said:
@Stoniphi
Are you saying that those two deaths were a good use of guns?

Wouldn't it have been better to give the muggers money
and then tell the police. One of them was a child.

Are you saying that it would have been somehow better for the 70 year old coach/cop, the 2 female children that were with him and the guy waiting for the bus to be killed? :confused: Would it somehow be preferable that the violent criminals survived to repeat their crimes on other victims? Is a criminal's life that much more valuable than that of a responsible tax - paying upstanding citizen? Do you not think that someone pointing a gun at your head may just pull the trigger and kill you? Would that be OK with you? If you were the coach/cop and had taken on the responsibility for those 2 young ladies safety would you just have let that (and your oath of office) slide when you saw the guns? Or is it that you just don't take this kind of thing seriously?

Both of the boys/men that confronted the coach were children (chronologically, as far as not having reached the 'age of majority' here in the US). However, when you choose to procure a firearm with the intent to use it to threaten the life of another person in order to commit armed robbery (a felony crime that carries a good chance of a life sentence when you get caught) you are consciously taking the chance that your potential victim will also have a firearm and will use it to kill you when you inform him of your intent to kill him/her with your firearm. Our US courts are of the opinion that those who commit "adult" crimes will be treated as "adults". That includes the 11 year old "child" (at the time of the crime) currently serving life in prison for shooting a man in the head with a rifle from a hill overlooking the party store in Pontiac, Michigan where his victim had stopped to buy a bottle of pop. He did not know the man he killed, he killed him "just because he felt like it." That's OK with you? We should have let that go? Hows about if that dead man was your brother, father, son...or YOU?

Many violent crimes that occur here in Detroit are committed by persons who have not yet achieved the age of 18 years. The term "drive - by shooting" was coined here to describe the actions of teenaged ("children") street gangs armed with AK 47's. Guns and gun violence are very common here, as are beatings, stabbings, rapes, firebombings and involuntary immolations. (that is when you pour gasoline on someone, light them on fire to watch them burn to death) I understand that that each of the criminals that commit these crimes have their own deeply personal reasons for becoming a criminal. I understand that they may become upstanding citizens if somebody forced them into some as-yet-unknown program. The time for that is BEFORE they stick a gun in my face and threaten to kill me. At that moment they have forfeited ALL of their rights, including their right to life, period. The US constitution states that "life" as the first and primary "right" we US citizens are "entitled" to enjoy. It also states that the right to self defense is primary as if you kill me I don't get any of my other constitutionally guaranteed rights.

I do not endorse allowing children access to firearms. I do not endorse children committing violent crimes. It is the right of any person to defend themselves and their family, however. Bottom line is this: if you choose to brandish a firearm against your victim while you are committing a violent crime you have forfeited all of your rights, including your right to life by so doing. It doesn't matter how old you are when you choose to commit that violent crime, the fact is that you have done that and by so doing you incur consequences that can potentially end your life. Youth, like ignorance, is no excuse.
 
Mr S,
I see a point in what you said.
If someone is armed with intent to kill a human life if it comes to it. Then they should be prepared to be killed by a human. No matter the age.
Did I take that right.
And cops have defended the citizens and taken lives no matter the age. Same with troops.
@ capt K. Would you rather see kids kill kids and adults kill adults? What really defines a "kid"? In some areas a kid becomes a adult around puberty. Here in the US its at 18. But some do what needs to be done. No matter the cost or age, the cop did it. Could you under the circumstances?
 
Yes, because people who have severe dementia would rather be able to carry a gun than go out to seek the proper treatment. It is obvious that being mentally ill makes you different from the normal population, when has that ever NOT been the case. The issue is not to sugarcoat it and act like they are normal in every regard (including equal access to firearms), but to address the problem head on, understand that it does affect their ability in many areas (whether or not they are fit to carry firearms) and then either to improve their current state or cope with their disorder in a proper manner.
Well I hate repeating myself (especially for people who don't seem to understand or can't read), but I'll just mention one last time it's not an argument for equal gun rights, but an argument that mental health records don't really amount to anything.


Yes, mental illness is stigmatized in America. But you share the same mentality that is avoiding the issue and making it taboo. The idea is not to say "Hey, you're just as normal as us", but "Hey, you're suffering from mental illness, but you'll get better from it." One of the reasons why so many people go through depression but are undiagnosed, is because they think it is a normal phase of life. That everyone goes through it one time or another, and it is just an unspoken thing that you should suffer alone. This mindset is supported by your reasoning since you don't want to alarm them or make them feel bad for having it. If someone found out they had cancer, they would run to the hospital and try to seek treatment as soon as possible. Because it is something you need to seek help for. Although sometimes not to that extent, mental illnesses such as depression must be taken seriously, and not be taken lightly.
If someone had cancer, they'd seek help immediately because there's little shame in getting cancer. No social repercussions really, except the limitations and the anxieties you'd get from cancer. Sounds like you really don't know what you're talking about, at all. Depression has been absolutely diagnosed more in recent years because there's less stigma in it. Here you are talking about how other people keep the stigma alive, while you post this garbage. I mean you just went on quote saying mentally ill people aren't normal, pretty much.

Like I said, not equality, but equity. Rights are not on equal terms to everyone already, just like we don't give children the right to bear arms, people must be fit to claim their right. You may think this is an infringement upon people's rights, but bring your argument to its end, and you'll see how absurd it is.
I'll just quote this to tell you for the Nth time that you should learn how to read.
 
If someone had cancer, they'd seek help immediately because there's little shame in getting cancer. No social repercussions really, except the limitations and the anxieties you'd get from cancer. Sounds like you really don't know what you're talking about, at all. Depression has been absolutely diagnosed more in recent years because there's less stigma in it. Here you are talking about how other people keep the stigma alive, while you post this garbage. I mean you just went on quote saying mentally ill people aren't normal, pretty much.

Actually, it sounds like you really don't know what YOU yourself are talking about. First you say that depression is very much left undiagnosed (and I quote you said "an overwhelming majority") because it is still stigmatized in America. Then you're saying it isn't. So you're not arguing against me, you're arguing against yourself. Would you like me to quote you on that?

asm said:
An overwhelming majority of severely depressed people as an example, aren't diagnosed. Mainly because it's still a pretty stigmatizing thing.
asm said:
Depression has been absolutely diagnosed more in recent years because there's less stigma in it.

I think you have a problem with understanding my points, because you don't have a basic understanding of the words we're talking about, particularly understanding what stigmatization is. To stigmatize is to characterize as disgraceful. I said mental illness isn't normal, because by definition, that is what illness is, a deviation from normal condition of mind or body. But I never said that it should be disgraceful, I said these are groups that need encouragement to first accept their illness (not stay in denial), and then try to improve on it.

Yes, I never expected much intelligent rebuttal from you, but your response is more of a rebuttal to your initial points than it is to mine.
 
I don't own a gun, but I think people have a right to own them should they choose. Background checks don't bother me; however, where do we draw a line beyond a criminal history? Where do they draw a line now?
 
I'm not into guns, either, but I have a friend who is one of these Alex Jones acolytes. What do these people think is going to happen? I'm not sure I would want to live in that world.
 
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I'm not into guns, either, but I have a friend who is one of these Alex Jones acolytes. He recently showed me his AR-15 with grenade launcher, his S&W .44 magnum revolver, bulletproof vest, and ammunition cache. I was adamant that I had no need of a shotgun. What do these people think is going to happen? I'm not sure I would want to live in that world.

Some people are collectors and simply get a rush from their guns. Others are probably a bit nutty and await the end of society. I know a guy who collects, sells, and trades military hardware. He's a true enthusiast, and the nicest guy you could ever know. It takes all kinds, I suppose. I myself wouldn't want the responsibility of owning a gun--what if it was stolen?
 
Some people are collectors and simply get a rush from their guns. Others are probably a bit nutty and await the end of society. I know a guy who collects, sells, and trades military hardware. He's a true enthusiast, and the nicest guy you could ever know. It takes all kinds, I suppose. I myself wouldn't want the responsibility of owning a gun--what if it was stolen?
This isn't merely collecting. They seem to be anticipating the end of civil society. Or at the very least, some intolerable excess of power.
 
This isn't merely collecting. They seem to be anticipating the end of civil society. Or at the very least, some intolerable excess of power.

Some people are betting on and preparing for the end of the world. What can you do? I think as long as they stay within the law, they are allowed to milk their paranoia. I know someone who was caught up in the Y2K scare. After it passed he was fine. He did spend a lot of time and money preparing for it.
 
I'm not into guns, either, but I have a friend who is one of these Alex Jones acolytes. He recently showed me his AR-15 with grenade launcher, his S&W .44 magnum revolver, bulletproof vest, and ammunition cache. I was adamant that I had no need of a shotgun. What do these people think is going to happen? I'm not sure I would want to live in that world.

Atheist takeover and brain washing program. Shoot, maybe I need some weapons, and another Bible.
 
You know i can't help but think that everyone claiming you might never need a gun are forgetting a very simple piece of logic. It is better to have and never need than than the other way around.

If you have a rifle, shotgun, pistol, and some basica supplies to carry you through an emergency aren't you in a better place than if you didn't? Do having these things harm you in some way that offsets the advantage of having them when they are needed? And say you never needed them did it really matter that you had them?

In the end it is much like having fire insurance. You will most likely never really need it, but the day you do it doesn't help to go purchase it in the middle of your need.
 
Do having these things harm you in some way that offsets the advantage of having them when they are needed?
Yes, they do - hence the issue. They create risk - of accident, theft, greater consequences of common error or insanity, etc. And they require not only initial diversion of resources and inevitable opportunity cost (money spent on weaponry is money not spent on, say, solar electrical generation capability, or water purification gear, or better fireproofing of one's house, or simply a spare pair of good boots - let alone the ordinary life investments like a musical instrument for one's children) but maintenance, with its price in time as well as money.

Whether the costs outweigh the benefits would be a highly personal decision, in most cases (I know a retired farmer who has no fire insurance at all - his house is almost impossible to burn, due to stone and cement and metal construction, non-flammable insulation, etc.) But some of the risks and other costs are socialized, and so we all have a some say in the particulars.
 
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It is better to have and never need than than the other way around.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Is it better to have 100 gallons of gasoline stored in milk containers in your closet, just in case? In that case is it better to have it and never need it than the other way around?

Do having these things harm you in some way that offsets the advantage of having them when they are needed?

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Risks and Benefits of a Gun in the Home

David Hemenway, Ph.D. hemenway@hsph.harvard.edu
Director, Harvard Injury Control Resarch Center

Abstract

This article summarizes the scientific literature on the health risks and benefits of having a gun in the home for the gun owner and his/her family. For most contemporary Americans, scientific studies indicate that the health risk of a gun in the home is greater than the benefit. The evidence is overwhelming for the fact that a gun in the home is a risk factor for completed suicide and that gun accidents are most likely to occur in homes with guns. There is compelling evidence that a gun in the home is a risk factor for intimidation and for killing women in their homes.
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The health risk of having a gun in the home
By Susan Perry | 12/17/12
REUTERS

Having a gun in your home significantly increases your risk of death — and that of your spouse and children. And it doesn’t matter how the guns are stored or what type or how many guns you own. If you have a gun, everybody in your home is more likely than your non-gun-owning neighbors and their families to die in a gun-related accident, suicide or homicide. Furthermore, there is no credible evidence that having a gun in your house reduces your risk of being a victim of a crime. Nor does it reduce your risk of being injured during a home break-in.

The health risks of owning a gun are so established and scientifically non-controvertible that the American Academy of Pediatrics issued a policy statement in 2000 recommending that pediatricians urge parents to remove all guns from their homes. Notice that the recommendation doesn’t call for parents to simply lock up their guns. It stresses that the weapons need to be taken out of the house. Study after study has been conducted on the health risks associated with guns in the home. One of the latest was a meta-review published in 2011 by David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. He examined all the scientific literature to date on the health risks and benefits of gun ownership. What he found was sobering, to say the least.

Accidental deaths

To begin with, having a gun in the home is a risk factor for serious accidental injury and death. As Hemenway points out, death certificate data indicate that 680 Americans were killed accidentally with guns each year between 2003 and 2007. Half those victims were under the age of 25.

Children aged 5 to 14 in the United States are 11 times more likely to die from an accidental gunshot wound than children in other developed countries.

Nonfatal gun injuries occur at the average rate of 20 a day in the United States — and that doesn’t include pellet-gun injuries (which average 45 day) or injuries that don’t involve a bullet wound (like powder burns and recoil injuries).

“One study of nonfatal accidental shootings found that the majority were self- inflicted, most involved handguns, and more than one third of the injuries required hospitalization,” writes Hemenway. “Injuries often occurred during fairly routine gun handling — cleaning a gun, loading and unloading, target shooting, and so on.”

Suicides

An average of 46 Americans committed suicide with guns each day between 2003 and 2007. In fact, more Americans killed themselves with guns during those years than with all other methods combined.

Gun owners and their families are not more suicidal than non-gun-owners, research shows. No are they more likely to have a history of depression or other mental health problems.

But they — and their families — are at significantly increased risk of successfully taking their lives with a gun. The reason: Guns are more lethal than other methods.

One study found, reports Hemenway, that “in states with more guns, there were more suicides (because there were more firearm suicides), even after controlling for the percentage of the state’s population with serious mental illness, alcohol dependence or abuse, illicit substance dependence or abuse, and the percentage unemployed, living below the poverty level, and in urban areas.”

But “there was no association between gun prevalence and a state’s nonfirearm suicide rate,” he adds.

Homicides

Two-thirds of all murders between 2003 and 2007 involved guns. The average number of Americans shot and killed daily during those years was 33. Of those, one was a child (0 to 14 years), five were teenagers (15 to 19 years) and seven were young adults (20 to 24 years), on average.

Children in the U.S. get murdered with guns at a rate that is 13 times higher than that of other developed nations. For our young people aged 15 to 24, the rate is 43 times higher.

“The presence of a gun makes quarrels, disputes, assaults, and robberies more deadly. Many murders are committed in a moment of rage,” writes Hemenway.

“For example, a large percentage of homicides — and especially homicides in the home — occur during altercations over matters such as love, money, and domestic problems, involving acquaintances, neighbors, lovers, and family members; often the assailant or victim has been drinking. Only a small minority of homicides appear to be the carefully planned acts of individuals with a single-minded intention to kill. Most gun killings are indistinguishable from nonfatal gun shootings; it is just a question of the caliber of the gun, whether a vital organ is hit, and how much time passes before medical treatment arrives.”
Benefits?

The possible health benefits of gun ownership are twofold: deterring crime and stopping crimes in progress. But there are no credible studies, says Hemenway, that higher levels of gun ownership actually do these things.

“The main reason people give for having a handgun in the home is protection, typically against stranger violence,” he writes. “However, it is important to recognize that the home is a relatively safe place, especially from strangers. For example, fewer than 30% of burglaries in the United States (2003-2007) occur when someone is at home. In the 7% of burglaries when violence does occur, the burglar is more likely to be an intimate (current or former) and also more likely to be a relative or known acquaintance than a stranger. Although people typically spend most of their time at home, only 5% of all the crimes of violence perpetrated by strangers occur at home.”

In fact, adds Hemenway, research shows that most self-defense use of guns is not socially desirable. He describes one study in which “criminal court judges from across the United States read the 35 descriptions of the reported self-defense firearm uses from 2 national surveys and found that, even if description of the event was accurate, in most of the cases, the self-defense gun use was probably illegal. Many were arguments that escalated into gun use.”
Real risks

“There are real and imaginary situations when it might be beneficial to have a gun in the home,” Hemenway concludes. “For example, in the Australian film Mad Max, where survivors of the apocalypse seem to have been predominantly psychopathic male bikers, having a loaded gun would seem to be very helpful for survival, and public health experts would probably advise people in that world to obtain guns.”

“However, for most contemporary Americans, the scientific studies suggest that the health risk of a gun in the home is greater than the benefit,” he adds. “There are no credible studies that indicate otherwise.”
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