Some Basic Islamic Beliefs

[S.A.M.]

You have conveniently, but unwarrentedly, ignored that the Jewish state also has a factual historical back-up of its land - more so than any Islamic claim to any land

How foolish to imagine that God would restrict people to anything less than the universe. What a small minded religion to dispossess people of their homes for this petty god. There is no factual history of Judaism. There are Judeans who were polytheists and there are Israelites who were Canaanites and there are Israelis who have mutated history to grab land on false pretences. Where is the temple of Ashereth of the Judeans?

The Hebrew belief is by birth and almost enforced by God

Again, what a small minded god that he would deny his worshippers choice. A person is a Muslim not because his parents were, or his neighbours are or because he is born or forced into it. He is a Muslim because he believes in God. He doesn't have to declare it or demonstrate it. Its between himself and God. There is no other authority in Islam.

 

[Michael]

Actually a person is usually Muslim because she was exposed to Islamic precepts as a child. In the same sense a Jew is a Jew.

If someone had invaded Mecca and declared it Hindu, and some Arab Muslims regained control 2000 years later, I'm guessing they'd act the same way that Jews do today - regardless if the Kaaba was originally a Hindu Shrine to a sacred meteorite (which it may or may not have been/be).


The problem as I see it, is the entire One-God paradigm and Muslims with their Perfect Book and Last Prophet are fulfilling it's intolerance to a Tee. Why should people be bothered by Muslims praying in a Shinto Shrine in front of a Mountain deity? I've done so MANY MANY times in Japan and never have I once been met with anything other than gratuitousness.

Why is it possible that Japanese Shinto can built Buddhist Prayer Temples within their Shrines and Buddhist's can build Shinto Shrines within their Temples?


It works because of their religious paradigm.


Recall how quickly things turned to shit when the Buddhist "Prophet" popped up claiming he had the "Perfect Revelation". He and His followers went around burning down Shrines and destroying other Buddhists Temples and terrorizing people for years. Finally the local Lord had to make a call, use this intolerant twits belief for his own ends (maybe try to carve out a little Religious Empire for himself over there in japan) or not to. The Lord gave these people years to knock off their shit, finally he had to kill the Prophet off along with every last one of his radical mono-Buddhist followers ...down to a man.

To me this says a couple of things.
-- Firstly, the One-God/Buddha/Xenu meme has a propensity to arise in a given population of a certain development even without prior exposure.
-- Second, it is virulent and spreads via intimidation and violence.
-- Third, it can be defeated, but, not easily. The meme-infected are a nasty bunch.

 

[S.A.M.]

Actually a person is usually Muslim because she was exposed to Islamic precepts as a child

Its undeniably one of the youngest religions. So there has to be more than childhood exposure to account for it. Only 20% of Muslims live in the Middle East

Why is it possible that Japanese Shinto can built Buddhist Prayer Temples within their Shrines and Buddhist's can build Shinto Shrines within their Temples?


It works because of their religious paradigm.

Its called syncretism, its why Jews can pray in mosques and Muslims in synagogues. There is no collision of disparate beliefs.

Note that you do not live in a polytheist culture even though you believe it is superior - why is that?

 

[Michael]

hi friends

1) Belief in God:

Muslims believe in one, unique, incomparable God, Who has no son nor partner, and that none has the right to be worshipped but Him alone. He is the true God, and every other deity is false. He has the most magnificent names and sublime perfect attributes. No one shares His divinity, nor His attributes

He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing, and the All-Knowing.

Can 'He' forget? Can 'He' Learn something new? Does 'He' ever laugh at a joke? Or is that impossible because the surprise ending cannot ever happen for 'Him'.

Can YOU do something that God cannot do? Can you Learn, Laugh, Forget and do many many other things?

In essence your God is one big f*cking uncaring hard-drive in the sky. Oh, and unless 'He' has a cock-and-balls you'd better start calling It what It is - a sexless hard-drive Thing. The great 'It' in the sky.

And you actually want to worship this Thing? That's crazy :crazy:
Oh, but I forgot, you only want to worship It, because It's going to give you something. A big wonderful life.... after you die. Ahhhhahahaha.... can you imagine anyone so gullible? I wonder, have you ever spoken to 'It' before? Let me guess, you friend told you all about 'It' and you promised life... AFTER you're dead

People will believe anything!

 

[Michael]

Its undeniably one of the youngest religions. So there has to be more than childhood exposure to account for it. Only 20% of Muslims live in the Middle East

Why have so Muslims convert to Christianity? Why are there millions of ex-Muslims that are now Bahai' (which is an even younger religion)?

These are interesting questions. However, most people believe what they are taught to believe as a child.


Islam was in China for 1200 years and yet 99.8% of Chinese are not Islamic.
Why?
Even AFTER the Emperor allowed for the Qur'an to be translated into Chinese as well as allowed Muslims to set up their own Quarter in his Capitol. Yet, with all this, the Chinese philosophers were so utterly unimpressed with Islam. So? Why didn't the Chinese convert? They converted to Buddhism after all? Maybe Buddhism is a better philosophy? I mean, Chinese knew of Christianity from the Nestorians. The Tang capital of Chang'an I mentoined earlier had Christians living there as well. So, the Chinese already knew of The 'One' God.

Therefor when you boil Islam down, the only thing left to offer the Chinese Philosophically (considering Christianity accounts for 80%) is Mohammad is the "Last Prophet" and we have the "World's Only Perfect Book". Can you imagine how silly and childlike these precepts must have sounded in the ears of Chinese Philosophers?
- Mohammad is the Last Prophet.
-- Of what?
--The Qur'an.
- What's so special about that?
-- There's One God
- Yes, the Christians told us, so what's so special?
- - Mohammad is the Last Prophet.
-- Of what?
--The Qur'an.
- What's so special about that?
-- There's One God
- Yes, the Christians told us, so what's so special?
- - Mohammad is the Last Prophet.

Islam must have seemed ridiculously simple minded to the Chinese ... with their 2000 year old culture, superior economy and ancient philosophies.



That aside, you should read about the modern archeology and evidence of the spread of Islam in Indonesia. Perhaps unsurprisingly, people aren't always as willing to part with their traditions and culture as quickly as their merchants and kings would like them to. But, they will eventually.




That aside, so SAM, why again are there millions of ex-Muslims who have chosen to follow the path of the Bahai' living in the ME? So many that Iran has laws preventing Bahai from proselytizing to Muslims. That's kind of cute isn't it? I mean, the Qur'an Perfect and all, BUT, we wouldn't want to put the Qur'an up head-to-head against the Bahai faith.

Too funny

 

[Michael]

Its called syncretism, its why Jews can pray in mosques and Muslims in synagogues. There is no collision of disparate beliefs.

You're seriously telling me you think Judaism and Islam are Syncretic Faiths?

Oh, that's ripe. Open a thread and make the case. Because I'm fairly certain syncretic Jews and Muslims would be in the vast minority. Jews aren't even allowed into their own (supposed) Temple Mount! How many Synagogues have been opened up in Mecca recently? ANY?

-- Buddhism and Taoism and Shintoism are syncretic.

-- Judaism and Christianity and Islam have no where near the same level of syncretism. Other than they share the One God meme.

 

[S.A.M.]

You're seriously telling me you think Judaism and Islam are Syncretic Faiths?

In essential belief, yes, their beliefs in God are the same. Muslims do pray in synagogues [video] - I don't know if Jews have evern prayed in mosques, I have no confirmation that halacha permits Jews to do so, and our only religious Jew has been permabanned.

 

[spidergoat]

And yet, you're a Zionist who believes "his people" are entitled to a Jewish state and that "Jewish culture" must be preserved. And inspite of being a Buddhist you call yourself Jewish. So obviously there are limits to what education can accomplish

You can suck one. I think it's alright if a group of people want to do their own thing religiously. It would be hypocritical of me to wish for religious freedom for atheists and not want the same for others. I do not feel that Jewish culture "must be" preserved under all circumstances. It's just that wiping it out would tend to harm actual people. I have sympathy for Zionists because they were brave enough to take a stand and not be tread on by other cultures anymore. It's unfortunate that war causes people to be warriors, but you can blame your God for this. Read wikipedia if you don't understand that Jewishness is an ethnicity and a culture as well as a religion.

Buddhism and atheism are compatible. Buddhism is a kind of science of the mind.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think it's alright if a group of people want to do their own thing religiously

So do I, after all Judaism is a religion. But your principles are inconsistent with your beliefs.

 

[spidergoat]

How so?

 

[S.A.M.]

How so?

You are a secular person who supports a state based on religion. And you don't even believe in the religion.

 

[Michael]

In essential belief, yes, their beliefs in God are the same. Muslims do pray in synagogues [video] - I don't know if Jews have evern prayed in mosques, I have no confirmation that halacha permits Jews to do so, and our only religious Jew has been permabanned.

Wait now. Lets use some logic. Benedict XVI prays at Rome Synagogue

So, according to your logic Christianity and Judaism are syncratic? So, again, according to your logic therefor Christianity and Islam are syncratic? What about Bahai and Islam? Are they syncratic? How about Scientology? It says something about Jesus, it must be syncratic with Christianity and therefor Islam? Is this correct?


Most Japanese conciser themselves Shinto and Buddhist. That's a little bit different than the Pope paying a good tidings visit to the local Synagogue or a Muslim visiting a Synagogue. Surely you can see the difference here.


I've known Christian and Muslim Japanese and they're usually preaching the sin of Shinto and Buddhism faiths. How sad is that. These ugly monotheistic memes. Lets hope they evolve to be more tolerant like the Buddhists in the future.

 

[S.A.M.]

Most Japanese conciser themselves Shinto and Buddhist

Then those beliefs probably do not clash with each other. It all depends on outlook. Muslims can pray anywhere because the presence of idols does not negate prayer to God. So its easy for Muslims to adjust their religion to any society. Its one of the reasons Islam is so widespread, even without religious authorities.

 

[Michael]

SAM, Christians are "everywhere". Scientologists are "everywhere". What's your point? You seem to be making one logical fallacy after another.

Christianity and Islam and Judaism are not syncratic belief systems and can barely tolerate themselves let alone a diverse belief. Even the ever so slight deviation in their own religious dogma leads to them killing one another: Catholics are just barely syncratic with Protestants and Shia are barely syncratic with Sunni. THAT'S how intolerant the One-God, Perfect-Book paradigm is.

Again, how many Taoist Temples did the Muslims build for their Chinese hosts? How many Mosques did the Chinese Taoists graciously pay for and build in their Capitol City for Muslims?
Why do you suppose that was the case?

The point is, we don't HAVE to have such an intolerant system of belief. As that is the case, I can only assume you must LIKE feeling Intolerant. Many people do. Why else would anyone want to be bigoted? They like feeling it. It's something we in the West will probably have to address soon, like everything else.

 

[sandy]

Most non-believers, when they get into big trouble, call out to God. I have seen it a dozen times. He should tell them to fck off.

 

[iceaura]

Its undeniably one of the youngest religions. So there has to be more than childhood exposure to account for it.

All religions have their beginnings. These are not the same as their spreadings, of course.

There are bodies of religious belief much younger than Islam, and spreadings of older beliefs during and after the major spreadings of Islam - Catholicism in the Americas, Mormonism, Scientology, Ba'hai, Falun Gong, Juchi, Cargo Cult, the list is long.

Childhood exposure accounts for almost all of the religious belief in this world, nevertheless. People seldom come up with this stuff on their own, and when they do it's usually idosyncratic - not one of the orthodoxies.

Muslims can pray anywhere because the presence of idols does not negate prayer to God. So its easy for Muslims to adjust their religion to any society.

Christians can pray anywhere as well - almost every sect and branch. Most theists can pray to their deity almost anywhere they want to. Why do you find that significant?

And Islam seems to be one of the religions least able to adjust to Western societies - there is constant conflict between the demands of the religion and the norms of daily life wherever it is spreading to next, everything from the plumbing to the taxi cab regulations come under pressure to accommodate the needs of incoming Muslims. Whether the other societies regard the arrival of Islam as involving Islam adjusting to them, of vice versa, I leave to those who have experienced it - but the outward evidence appears to be that domination by Islam changes most societies, visibly and significantly, voluntarily or involuntarily.

 

[spidergoat]

You are a secular person who supports a state based on religion. And you don't even believe in the religion.

I don't see the contradiction. It's not a theocracy but a secular state built for the protection of a group of which I am a member. The Zionist movement was popularized by a socialist atheist!

 

[Michael]

Most non-believers, when they get into big trouble, call out to God. I have seen it a dozen times. He should tell them to fck off.

Really, I'm sure most call out to Xenu?



Sandy, in all seriousness, what do you personally think about Buddhists. I mean, I know you represent yourself as a born-again Christian, and I'm curious to know what your views are a few situations.
1) Say a Japanese person who is Buddhist simply because of her society and family.
2) A Iraqi person who is Muslims simply because of her society and family.
3) A person who was Christian but converted to Islam.
4) A person who was Islamic but converted to Christianity.
5) A person who was Islamic but converted to Buddhism.
6) A person who was Christian but converted to Buddhism.


I know I listed a large number of variables but I would be curious to hear your opinion.

 

[spidergoat]

Most non-believers, when they get into big trouble, call out to God. I have seen it a dozen times. He should tell them to fck off.

It's just an epithet, they seldom mean it.

 

[Michael]

I'm wondering, is it possible to have predestiny / Al-Qadar as well as have freewill? I mean if every single ionic movement in every single molecule of your body is known to the God and is therefor predestined to occur - how the hell are you going to have any control at all over your body? You're in essence a machine.