So what next, theists and atheists and agnostics?

Sarkus - sorrry crossd with your post whilst writing mine.

Energy being eternal, well it may be, I do not know. But energy is insentient it will not act of its own accord, even if energy is eternal, one still has to explain how the ball got rolling so to speak. What was the stimulus to start potential energy in its chain of reactions. So you are back to square one again.


I've read and heard several explanations of how it is that the natural exists and none of them included the supernatural. .

Please tell us what they are or post links.... it would seem to be an appropriate thread to do so ?
 
I dont know where the universe came from or how it got here, so i stick with 'i dont know' works for me. Speculation is still fun though. ;)
 
One cannot put up a theory without positing the existence of an external factor to the universe.
Theory: The singularity at the beginning of time exploded due to internal stress caused by resonance frequencies.
 
Light,

even if energy is eternal, one still has to explain how the ball got rolling so to speak. What was the stimulus to start potential energy in its chain of reactions. So you are back to square one again.
Well no, I don't think so. If you do discover something that STARTED the ball rolling that wil then raises the question of what STARTED the starter.

The outcome from that is that something of an infinite nature MUST exist otherwise nothing could have ever started. Since we have nothing to indicate the universe hasn't always existed then the simple assumption for now should be that it is infinite.
 
Religion, not religious. It's a valid topic.
Its still not clear why he wants to discuss the origins of the universe specifically without reference to theistic knowledge by posting in a religion thread

:confused:

(Wouldn't the astronomy/cosmology category be more appropriate?)
 
lg,

Its still not clear why he wants to discuss the origins of the universe specifically without reference to theistic knowledge by posting in a religion thread
He doesn't, he is suggesting you admit that religions are nonsense.
 
lg,

He doesn't, he is suggesting you admit that religions are nonsense.
And he wants to achieve that by not discussing theistic knowledge?
Can we also determine the relative truth or falsity in science by also not discussing scientific knowledge?

How should we determine the outcome?

Flipping a coin?
Betting on the horses?
Taking a vote?

:confused:
 
lg,

And he wants to achieve that by not discussing theistic knowledge?
Can we also determine the relative truth or falsity in science by also not discussing scientific knowledge?

How should we determine the outcome?
But lg, you have yet to demonstrate there is any such thing as theistic knowledge. That's what we keep asking you for and you keep avoiding the questions.

So of course he can't discuss theistic knowledge - it doesn't exist.
 
lg,

But lg, you have yet to demonstrate there is any such thing as theistic knowledge. That's what we keep asking you for and you keep avoiding the questions.

So of course he can't discuss theistic knowledge - it doesn't exist.

By saying "it does not exist" I assume you mean "transgresses my established value system" - I can name several libraries that have literally miles of theistic knowledge
 
Theistic speculations, wishes, hopes and delusions perhaps. But not "knowledge." What Cris is talking about is a 'theistic way of knowing' that you keep alluding to but never demonstrate.

Sure, religious nutters have opinions and write about them. But that no more implies that they have some special knowledge that is unavailable to nonbelievers than the UFO nutters who write "miles of UFO/Space Alien knowledge" and claims to 'know' that they're being anal probed and abducted by Beta Reticulans.
 
Lg,

So why don't you demonstrate a single piece of theistic knowledge, like show a god exists, or has ever existed, or that a soul exists or could exist, or that there is a supernatural plain or something similar?
 
Lg,

So why don't you demonstrate a single piece of theistic knowledge, like show a god exists, or has ever existed, or that a soul exists or could exist, or that there is a supernatural plain or something similar?
This is why I declare you are stuck on the reductionist paradigm - how can you "show" a high school drop out an electron - you can indicate an electron, and you can indicate the process how to directly perceive an electron, but thats about it - similarly there are many references from saintly persons about the nature of the transcendental realm and also many guidelines on how to make advancement on that path in scripture (practically any one you care to mention)- if that reality was capable of being directly represented in dull matter it wouldn't be transcendental.

Thats why there is the eg of the president - if you want to make direct contact with a superior conscious entity you have to be subservient to their ideas - its not like one can go out and see the president by force. If such an endeavour to meet a powerful mundane personality by one's own nous fails in this world, what to speak of trying to approach god and his abode in the same manner
 
Energy being eternal, well it may be, I do not know. But energy is insentient it will not act of its own accord, even if energy is eternal, one still has to explain how the ball got rolling so to speak. What was the stimulus to start potential energy in its chain of reactions. So you are back to square one again.
Why?

If energy is "eternal" then it might have had no beginning - and will have no end.
If you have a "Creator" then it begs the question of who created the creator - as you previously stated.
But the theistic response is that the "Creator" is beyond the need of creation - which then begs the question: why can't the Universe / energy etc also be beyond the need of creation?

None of it is provable / testable / verifiable, of course.
And I don't actually "believe" any of it - as there is no evidence for any of it.
But the "eternal" universe (even the cyclic Bang/Crunch universe) does away with one more unknown (God).
 
Light,

Well no, I don't think so. If you do discover something that STARTED the ball rolling that wil then raises the question of what STARTED the starter. .

That was kinda the point I was making..;)

The outcome from that is that something of an infinite nature MUST exist otherwise nothing could have ever started.
.

This same argument used in favour of a pantheistic god. All you have to do is add sentience to infinite and you have it…

With pantheism there is no god external to the universe who has created it. The universe is infinite and what we have now, as the known material universe, has arisen out of infiniteness, but in order for something to start, or for something dynamic to arise from something static sentience or intelligence is required.

God in this sense is the universe; and the universe is sentient; man is part of the universe and part of that same sentience; (or you may say consciousness); This sentient universe is called the great self and it is from here that man can say that the self in me is the same as the self of god, or come to the realisation god and I are one.



Theory: The singularity at the beginning of time exploded due to internal stress caused by resonance frequencies.

Problems with that theory in regard to infinite universe;

1.For a force (stress) to act on a mass, time is a necessary factor; therefore to say that stresses caused an explosion at the beginning of time would be oxymoronic ; time would have had to have started before the stresses; the question remains what started time.

2. Internal stresses and resonant frequencies are caused by forces acting upon or within objects; basically the particles are being held together in an unnatural state and their tendency is to want to break apart, this is the cause of stresses. In this model you do not have a singularity, you have a dynamic universe as the one we have now, the only difference being it is far more compact.. The fact that the forces are internal to the (supposed) singularity does not matter, as whether they are internal or external to the singularity they are still internal to the universe.

3. The problem being, where you have a dynamic universe i.e. with forces acting, you do not have an infinite universe – it is impossible for something held in this state to be called infinite.
To be infinite a universe it must be stable and static. But then you still have the question of how it became dynamic in the first place

4. This can be overcome by saying the universe is infinitely dynamic. But then why start at the singularity why not start at the multiplicity that must have proceeded it.. why not start from 100,000 years ago. You see in the case of an infinitely dynamic universe, any one point is no more relevant than any other. It is just tantamount to saying I don’t know.

Since we have nothing to indicate the universe hasn't always existed then the simple assumption for now should be that it is infinite
.

Again the simplest assumption is we don’t know…. Infinite universes are not simple assumption or concepts and have ramifications. As stated above. They often need sentience to make them work and then you are back to what created the sentience etc etc.:D

Why?
If energy is "eternal" then it might have had no beginning - and will have no end.
.

All we can really say on energy is that so far we have not found anything in the universe which destroys it…. But then we have only explored about 1 millionth of the universe and are still discovering new things in our solar system and indeed our planet. So we can not really say with much certainty that energy is eternal…. although it may well be??
 
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This is why I declare you are stuck on the reductionist paradigm - how can you "show" a high school drop out an electron - you can indicate an electron, blah, blah, blah....

Yet Another Lightgigantic Copout (YALC). Cris, he'll never answer this question straightforwardly because he hasn't an answer. It's obvious that there *is* no such thing as "theistic knowledge" and LG's silly tirades are evident of this.
 
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