So what next, theists and atheists and agnostics?

Q

QUEST EONS

Registered Senior Member
Most of us and even alot of devout relgious followers, deep down know and realize that all religions simply arent true. Come on now, take a step back from your egos and lets just be honest, religion is crazy, and often frighteningly hillarious.. (has anyone seen that movie Jesus Camp?) We know that religion just isnt true, and is used for mostly power control reasons, so lets just forget that god exist/jesus/allah/buddah/hindu or doesnt exitst, argument ok.

My interest is, ok so we know that this relgion stuff doesnt answer anything, so what do you believe the (in general) universe just always was? ( a hard concept to grasp), or that it was started somehow (also hard to grasp)

Me personally, my only claim to thinking that there may be some inklining of supernatural is that the universe/galaxy/everything couldnt have just "popped" up? Or could it?

I'm eager to hear your thoughts!
 
Jesus existed, so did Buddha, and Buddhists use the term Buddha these days as a term for an enlightened person.

I think the universe evolved, growing upon previous complexity, mostly by the mechanism of cooling.
 
If we admit that we're all wrong, then forget any theory about living in the universe. It's back to square one. Eventually someone will have another divine epiphany, and thousands will rise to follow him.
 
baumgarten said:
If we admit that we're all wrong, then forget any theory about living in the universe. It's back to square one. Eventually someone will have another divine epiphany, and thousands will rise to follow him.
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Personally, it seems like a cycle to me. More and more people, in my mind (though numbers refute it - rise of Evangelicals and Born-Again Christians in America?) are becoming athiest/agnostic as time continues. The majority of the people who consider themselves to be moderates have never seriously taken a look at their faith and have never tried to rationalize their faith in God. They want to believe (as TIME puts it) in miracles and MRIs. This doesn't sound like a strong theistic argument to me.

If we assume that some catastrophic event shakes the Earth and divides the people (meteor which doesn't utterly destroy the planet, perhaps), some would consider it divine judgement while others would absolutely have no faith, because God would have protected us from the meteor if he really cared. Among those (the majority) who can't think for themselves, they fall back into the pitfall of Christianity. When they are troubled and tortured, they will readily accept what they are fed - that their suffering will end and all will end well in Heaven.

no because hinduism says the world doesn't exist, it's an illusion.
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Actually, Hinduism says that the Earth and the cosmos is real. If you throw a table at one, they're not going to sit there and expect it to pass through them. The idea is that we are veiled from the Truth, and through our sense organs, we view the Reality through this veil, and thus we see what we see. So matter is matter, it just isn't the matter you think you're seeing.
 
QUEST EONS

Most of us and even alot of devout relgious followers, deep down know and realize that all religions simply arent true.
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By the word "most" do you mean "most people like me"?
Come on now, take a step back from your egos and lets just be honest, religion is crazy, and often frighteningly hillarious.. (has anyone seen that movie Jesus Camp?) We know that religion just isnt true,
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Ok so you have a conclusion "Religion isn't true"
Do you have any premises for that or should we just accept it on faith?
Oh thats right, you watched a movie about it
:rolleyes:

and is used for mostly power control reasons,
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Not sure what this is supposed to mean - are you suggetsing that society does not require any controlling forces

so lets just forget that god exist/jesus/allah/buddah/hindu or doesnt exitst, argument ok.
Click to expand...
Why?
On the sterngth of your attempt to convince by gregarious charm instead of sound reasoning?

My interest is, ok so we know that this relgion stuff doesnt answer anything,
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So you keep saying, but you haven't elaborated why it doesn't answer anything
so what do you believe the (in general) universe just always was? ( a hard concept to grasp), or that it was started somehow (also hard to grasp)
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These issues are not addressed by religion?
If you want to discuss the origins of the universe in a manner that excludes religiousity, why the hell did you post in a religious forum?

Me personally, my only claim to thinking that there may be some inklining of supernatural is that the universe/galaxy/everything couldnt have just "popped" up? Or could it?

I'm eager to hear your thoughts!
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Your pluruality is bewildering ... do you want to start a thread that deals with theistic knowledge or not?
 
No one has an inkling of how the natural springs into existence, without some reference to the supernatural. Even then it has to be explained how the supernatural became.
 
Light Travelling said:
No one has an inkling of how the natural springs into existence, without some reference to the supernatural.
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Assumptive - that the natural originally "sprang into existence".
This has never been proven.

One could equally assume an eternal "nature" and thus do away with the need to "spring" anywhere. :D
 
Indeed. Its always amusing to me that believers in superstition and magical thinking go on and on about how all their supernatural mumbo jumbo *must* be true because science doesn't have all the answers.

What a pathetic, cop-out excuse to believe.
 
Sarkus said:
Assumptive - that the natural originally "sprang into existence".
This has never been proven.
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SkinWalker said:
Indeed. Its always amusing to me that believers in superstition and magical thinking go on and on about how all their supernatural mumbo jumbo *must* be true because science doesn't have all the answers.

What a pathetic, cop-out excuse to believe.
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OMG… I posted a theologically neutral statement and get this in return.. :eek: ; Lets back up a minute the thread starter said this.

QUEST EONS said:
Me personally, my only claim to thinking that there may be some inklining of supernatural is that the universe/galaxy/everything couldnt have just "popped" up? Or could it?
!
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I replied to this, stating a fact that. There is no theory of how material existence just ‘popped’ or ‘sprang’ up without resorting to the supernatural for explanation. This is a true fact. I did not state this to be true or false or my opinion or not.

I then gave the objection to this line of thinking which is that if the material came from the supernatural, where did the supernatural spring / pop from. I did not state this as being true or false or my opinion or not either.

So I have given both sides of an argument in response to the question of the thread starter as food for thought, without giving any opinion or belief of my own..:mad:

Sarkus said:
One could equally assume an eternal "nature" and thus do away with the need to "spring" anywhere. :D
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To say something has always been is neither logical nor rational (unless you temper it with some king of eastern thought such as all the material world is illusion or mind only etc).

To say something has always been because it just has, or it is this way because it just is....is no reasoning at all. One might as well just say I don’t know and leave it at that.
 
Light Travelling said:
OMG… I posted a theologically neutral statement and get this in return.. [...] I replied to this, stating a fact that. There is no theory of how material existence just ‘popped’ or ‘sprang’ up without resorting to the supernatural for explanation. This is a true fact. [...]
So I have given both sides of an argument in response to the question of the thread starter as food for thought, without giving any opinion or belief of my own..
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Not true. You said, "[n]o one has an inkling of how the natural springs into existence, without some reference to the supernatural."

I've read and heard several explanations of how it is that the natural exists and none of them included the supernatural. Indeed, I've even heard people who study topics related to this admit they don't know. The supernatural exists only in the minds of the credulous. The reasoned mind rejects such cop-out explanations and is willing to settle on "I don't know" until the time comes in which we do.
 
Light Travelling said:
To say something has always been is neither logical nor rational (unless you temper it with some king of eastern thought such as all the material world is illusion or mind only etc).
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Why is it not logical, nor rational?
We know that energy can not be destroyed - and thus extrapolating this current understanding - energy must be eternal.

Please then tell me how an eternal thing can be created?

One rational / logical conclusion is that it has always been eternal - no creation, no ending - otherwise you introduce an element that does not satisfy Occam's Razor - i.e. the supernatural, the theological etc. - in the form of the Creator of that which is Eternal.

Light Travelling said:
To say something has always been because it just has, or it is this way because it just is....is no reasoning at all. One might as well just say I don’t know and leave it at that.
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I have not stated "It is this way... because it just is". If that is what you have read into it then please feel free to read again.
 
lightgigantic said:
QUEST EONS


By the word "most" do you mean "most people like me"?

Ok so you have a conclusion "Religion isn't true"
Do you have any premises for that or should we just accept it on faith?
Oh thats right, you watched a movie about it
:rolleyes:


Not sure what this is supposed to mean - are you suggetsing that society does not require any controlling forces


Why?
On the sterngth of your attempt to convince by gregarious charm instead of sound reasoning?


So you keep saying, but you haven't elaborated why it doesn't answer anything
These issues are not addressed by religion?
If you want to discuss the origins of the universe in a manner that excludes religiousity, why the hell did you post in a religious forum?


Your pluruality is bewildering ... do you want to start a thread that deals with theistic knowledge or not?
Click to expand...

That's the exact debate that I am avoiding, for the sake or humoring you, watch the video link posted earlier in this thread. Goodluck with your future endeavors!
 
Sarkus said:
Why is it not logical, nor rational?
We know that energy can not be destroyed - and thus extrapolating this current understanding - energy must be eternal.

Please then tell me how an eternal thing can be created?

One rational / logical conclusion is that it has always been eternal - no creation, no ending - otherwise you introduce an element that does not satisfy Occam's Razor - i.e. the supernatural, the theological etc. - in the form of the Creator of that which is Eternal.

I have not stated "It is this way... because it just is". If that is what you have read into it then please feel free to read again.
Click to expand...

Interesting, I do believe energy has been proven to never be destroyed (correct???) so if energy is eternal, hmm.... you got me pondering, great job.

Also, someone made another good point, do you think the world would increase in quality if people were confident in saying, we just don't know. Simple as that and stop fabricating insane relgious, AND even some scientific guesses...

But that energy thing, hmm.. I'm eager to hear more thoughts on that!

This is a great site to share thoughts on thanks guys!
 
If a creator created the world who created the creator and if there was another creator who created that creator and so on ad infinitum.
Or if the world came from the supernatural where did the supernatural come from – the super supernatural and so on ad infinitum
And if you have to carry on like this indefinitely then it is no creation theory at all. To say it has always been is no theory at all. You cannot say that evolution has occurred since the big bang but before that there was a stable universe existing for infinite time. What was the trigger for the big bang. One cannot put up a theory without positing the existence of an external factor to the universe. Then you are right back to what created the external factor etc etc.

So in short there is no creation theory that stands up to any scrutiny at all. We just have no idea whatsoever..or is it that our minds simply cannot comprehend such things. Like an ant trying to comprehend the moon.
 
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