So, Jesus died on the cross for our sins?

[Cris]

LV,

I think I have seen the Young Christ King. He is bright and almost electrically ... looking for the right word... 'Positive'. He is enthusiastic and almost otherworldly in the degree to which nothing He does is simply Common Sense. He is not only Fearless, but he is delighted to encounter dangers. His adherence to Noble Ideals is almost exasperating. But his expectations and enthusiasm are contageous. Saying No to Him would be as heartbreaking as saying No to a child...to a baby.

It’s called dreaming. If you can’t tell the difference between that and reality then find a good therapist.

 

[Bells]

Oh dear lord!

Yes, it is not necessary to sin. However you are speaking in paradox when you talk about Pregnant Women not sinning. To become pregnant requires Sin.

No. To become pregnant requires a sexual act. Not a sin. You should ask your parents to give you the little 'chat' about the birds and the bees. Are all women who have given birth to their children repent and beg the lord's forgiveness for sinning?

Sex is animal behavior. In the highest sense of the Word, sex is anything that is Non-Spiritual. Yes, Paul the Antichrist thought it was hilarious to bring sex into the Church and right up to the Altar by making Marriage a Sacrament. Actually that is quite an abomination. Marriage should have been left in the barnyard where all those affairs concerning animal 'breeding' belong.

And where do you come from? How were you brought into this world? Do you refer to your parents as sinners or animal breeders? Or do you believe you were born in a cabbage patch? Are you a virgin because to have sex is to commit an act of 'animal behaviour'? You do realise that Mary married Joseph don't you? I can point you to Matthew at 1:18 to 1:25:

1:18 Now the birth of Jesus the Messiah took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been engaged to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
1:19 Her husband Joseph, being a righteous man and unwilling to expose her to public disgrace, planned to dismiss her quietly.
1:20 But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
1:21 She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
1:22 All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel," which means, "God is with us."
1:24 When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife,
1:25 but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.


Hmmm... interesting don't you think?

If there was no sex, there would be no human beings on this earth. There would be no Leo. I'm guessing you believe in Adam and Eve and the notion of creationism? If God considered sex to be animalistic and a sin, he would not have given Adam and Eve genetalia and nor would God have told them 'be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth'. If we are all meant to be descendants of Adam and Eve, then sex would have to have occured, because unless you didn't realise it Leo, that is how babies come into existence. Humans, like all animals on this earth, breed. That is why we are born with sexual organs Leo. You have sexual organs don't you? Why do you think that is?

 

[bigal]

Cue Leo with some biblical text or some scene from a movie....

 

[Bells]

Cue Leo with some biblical text or some scene from a movie....

Or worse, a vision.

 

[Bells]

Cue Leo with some biblical text or some scene from a movie....

Heh... me thinks Leo has done a runner

 

[Leo Volont]

Dear Bells,

Animality is distinct from Spirituality. It is the Antichrist's Doctrine that Natural Animal Behavior is NOT sinful. It is. If you want to be a pure animal then you can be as animalistic as you like. But to attain to any Spiritual Goal then animality must be transcended. SEX IS A SIN NO MATTER WHAT THE CONTEXT!

One of the first things the Angels ever told me was "Only those at the bottom cannot go to the Top". This means that sexuality precludes all hopes for Spiritual Attainment.

 

[Bells]

And he's back and it just gets better and better. And he has still failed to answer any of the questions I'd asked previously. How predictable.

It is the Antichrist's Doctrine that Natural Animal Behavior is NOT sinful. It is.

It is not sinful for the animals. We too are animals Leo. Oh I know you seem to think that you are some divine being who considers himself to be above all. But when it comes down to it, if the rest of us human animals did not behave as we are naturally meant to and were spiritual, well there wouldn't be any of us around to be spiritual. Human life on earth would have ended with Adam and Eve. In fact Leo, you would not be here at all if your parents were not animalistic or sinful as you obviously consider them. Heck, your parents wouldn't be here either, or your grandparents and so forth.

I shall ask you again Leo, do you consider your parents sinful? Because they did have sex for you to be here. That, in your line of thought Leo, would make you an object of sin. That would make every single human being on this earth objects of sin. Should we all become spiritual and stop having children (which would involve a sexual act) so as to stop sinning?

Are you daring to consider God wrong or sinful when he told Adam and Eve to 'be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth'? Because somehow I don't think God meant that in the sense that they were meant to plant crops.

If you want to be a pure animal then you can be as animalistic as you like.

I am who I am Leo. I was born 9 months after my parents had sex. Just like you were. However, I don't sit there and proclaim to be spiritual and in the know about all that is divine while also proclaiming the religions and beliefs of others as evil. I don't disrespect the religions and beliefs of others by referring to them as evil or as something such as the anti-christ. I guess you're not so spiritual after all, instead you are a mean hearted and closed minded little man who claims his beliefs are somehow correct because he believes his dreams have told him they are so.

But to attain to any Spiritual Goal then animality must be transcended.

Luckily for you, your parents didn't feel the same way as you do, otherwise you would not be here today.

SEX IS A SIN NO MATTER WHAT THE CONTEXT!

So tell me Leo, how are human beings meant to reproduce instead? How are human beings meant to be spiritual like you portray yourself to supposedly be and still reproduce?

One of the first things the Angels ever told me was "Only those at the bottom cannot go to the Top". This means that sexuality precludes all hopes for Spiritual Attainment.

Strange. I'd have thought one of the first things your angels ever told you would have been "don't be afraid of the needle Leo, it won't hurt, it will just be a small little prickle... then you feel all ok and right again"...

 

[mario]

You have to admit leo is quite the character. I get the feeling that he is not as "spiritual" as he claims. Like he's playing some sort of prank. I could be wrong though. Quick, what are the ten commandments leo? No looking them up either.

Yes I'm confused too about why jesus died for our sins. I can see that he died "because" of our sins however. Isn't the whole birth of jesus thing just a little redundant? I mean, isn't just believing in god good enuff? All the people in the old testament didn't need to believe in jesus to go to heaven. And if jesus was able to see the future...like he knew that peter would deceive him 3 times before the cock crowed...did he also see his future dying on the cross? And if he already knew in advance of his fate why did he go along with it? Was it all one big passion play that was predetermined?

 

[okinrus]

No, this is IMHO not a prank due to Leo expressing this view, and even stranger ones, on another theology forum. But there's nothing of that in Christianity, however. Perhaps he's deriving it from Hindu mysticism.

 

[bigal]

Are YOU an object of SIN???????

 

[Medicine*Woman]

You need to remember that the Creation Story is just a Metaphor designed to make a point. If you come away hating God, then you probably did not capture the point that was intended.

*************
M*W: I don't "hate God." The god I believe in is so much greater than what Christianity teaches.
*************

This is what I think. God, to be as perfect as possible had to be complete as possible, and to be complete He had to create Everything and All Possibilities. But not Everything and All Possibilities were or are Good. Remember, Creation is not finished -- God only rested on the 7th day, which was not to say that work would not continue in the next week. That new work was to sort the Good from the Bad.
*************
M*W: I agree. God is not finished with creation. We are in the last day of creation where God is perfecting humanity, the last creation to be perfected. God hasn't rested yet. We're still only in the 6th day of creation.
*************

A third of the Angels were found to be rebellious and were ejected from Heaven. Then Adam and Eve were Tested and proven to need quite a bit of Evolution before they would measure up.

We were tested again. The Messiah was sent and we killed him.
*************
M*W: I believe that we did NOT kill Jesus. I also believe that Jesus was NOT the Messiah. What reason could there be to kill our Messiah??? That would be counter productive.
*************

This was a horrible failure and we are still paying for it. The Letters of Paul are a Test -- will people live Righteously, or will they rely on Paul's Easy Salvation. God has Tested all the Time. Job was Tested. Lucifer or Satan is the Tester. Some of the Tests go editorially unnoticed by the writers of the Bible. Take Jacob for instance. He swindled and cheated the Birthright of the Patriarchs from his oldest Brother while lieing and defrauding his own Father. This poses a Test to every Jew -- was Jacob right to swindle, cheat, lie and defraud if he could only get away with it. The answer the Jewish People has given us is a sad and unfortunate "yes". They failed this ultimate moral test, and yet no subsequent Jewish writer has ever hinted upon it. "What moral lapse?" they object..."To succeed in a business deal is ALWAYS A VIRTUE". That one moral failure has shaped their culture and character. If Esau had been Patriarch instead of Jacob, then Christ would have been King of Kings.
*************
M*W: As I've already told you, I agree with you that Paul is the Antichrist. People who follow Christianity and read the Epistles of Paul DO NOT follow Christianity! They, too, are the Antichrists!
*************

Anyway, God is working hard to perfect the Universe. Only the Evil will be tossed out. Unless you are evil, you will have nothing to worry about.

Well, there is some evil in most everyone. We will be purified by experience, suffering and knowledge.

*************
M*W: There is some minute amount of evil in everyone -- and more in others -- but we are still in the process of creation toward perfection. I agree that God is working hard to perfect the Universe. Therefore, we don't need Jesus. We don't need Christ. We don't need the crucifixion nor the resurrection. They didn't happen anyway. God created us in "their" image. We are God. I cannot see it any other way.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Gods conscience is the collective conscience.
We produce what we want. The second coming is here.

*************
M*W: Hey, bigal! I agree. God's consciousness is humanity's collective consciousness. We do produce what we want collectively. I'm not sure there was a first coming, but I definitely believe humanity is here and it is God.

 

[Leo Volont]

You have to admit leo is quite the character. I get the feeling that he is not as "spiritual" as he claims. Like he's playing some sort of prank. I could be wrong though. Quick, what are the ten commandments leo? No looking them up either.

Yes I'm confused too about why jesus died for our sins. I can see that he died "because" of our sins however. Isn't the whole birth of jesus thing just a little redundant? I mean, isn't just believing in god good enuff? All the people in the old testament didn't need to believe in jesus to go to heaven. And if jesus was able to see the future...like he knew that peter would deceive him 3 times before the cock crowed...did he also see his future dying on the cross? And if he already knew in advance of his fate why did he go along with it? Was it all one big passion play that was predetermined?

I probably could list the 10 Commandments, but I would not be able to guarantee putting them into the correct order. I do know that they are listed twice in the Bible -- once in Exodus and again in Deuteronomy.

Belief in God. No, that won't get you very far. At times in History and in some Cultures practically everybody believed in God. There is nothing Magical or Transcendental about mere belief. In one of John's Letters he says that the Demons believe in Christ and yet they are still Demons.

I could say that Christ came to deliver a Teaching, but it goes further then that. The appearance of Major Saints and Prophets mark off different Dispensations -- Points of Development in Human Spiritual Evolution.

 

[Leo Volont]

No, this is IMHO not a prank due to Leo expressing this view, and even stranger ones, on another theology forum. But there's nothing of that in Christianity, however. Perhaps he's deriving it from Hindu mysticism.

The Catholic Holy Orders have their own Mysticism. One does not need to be Baptised in the Ganges River to have a Mystical Experience.

When you think about Catholic Doctrine, and then about Mysticism, you will find that the two systems can not easily be reconciled. This is one reason why the Contemplative Orders of the Catholic Church have always agreed to go into cloistered seclusion. It is perfectly okay for them to do and think whatever they want, as long as they never speak a word to another living soul and take their Gnosis to the grave with them.

But, as I said before, the Bishops have erroded the power they had to push the Catholic Orders around. They have their hands full of buggering priests and child pornography and so the Religious Orders are now quite effectively free to come out with the Truth. It is the Victory of the Marians over the Paulists and signals the approach of the Second Coming.

 

[Leo Volont]

leo is quite the character.... Like he's playing some sort of prank.

In my younger days I had wished I had an inventive imagination, but it has only been since my Visions and the Gift of the Angels that I have acquired what appears to be a wonderful origninality. It would be an elaborate Prank for an ordinary person to bring online Arguments and Perceptions not seen before in literature, theology or history.

 

[mario]

Visions eh? Um, did you happen to see any lottery numbers per chance?

 

[Leo Volont]

Visions eh? Um, did you happen to see any lottery numbers per chance?

I knew one Spiritual Lady -- ironically enough, her name was Mary -- and she was as ethically innocent as a child. Whenever she would practically run out of money, she would take her last couple of dollars to a gambling Casino or a Dog Track and parley them up to Food, Gas and Rent Money to keep her going. She was never greedy. She would walk into the place with an exact dollar amount that she needed, and when she got it, her job there would be done and she would hop into her car and go home.

But my Ethical Considerations are not quite so innocent. I could not imagine myself doing such a thing. However, if my Angels ever told me to play the Lottery and gave me six or seven numbers -- whatever it is -- I would do it. But left alone to my own devices, I work for a Paycheck.