So, Jesus died on the cross for our sins?

B

bigal

Registered Senior Member
What?, to then go to heaven and sit in paradise next to God?
Not bad for our sins is it?
 
bigal said:
What?, to then go to heaven and sit in paradise next to God?
Not bad for our sins is it?
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I don't quite understand your point.

Are you saying that it was easy and advantageous for Christ to suffer a complete day's torture and crucifixion.

You know, that Christ already was the Son of God. Ostensibly Christ could have escaped -- simply taken exile to another Nation where He would not have so threatened the Power Elite. But He stayed and was made to suffer an extremely painful death, which you seem to be treating very lightly.

Yes, I do not believe that Christians are saved by the murder committed by Jews. It would be ridiculous for God to hand out rewards for murdering His Son.
 
Leo Volont said:
Yes, I do not believe that Christians are saved by the murder committed by Jews. It would be ridiculous for God to hand out rewards for murdering His Son.
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M*W: That leads me back to the question of who are the gods of Genesis? Which one of those "gods" was the jealous one? Which one was the condemner of Adam and Eve? Which one of those gods decided that the first two humans deserved to die from original sin? I don't like this god. This god is evil. What god would have put that obstacle in Eden in the first place? I think we need to relook at which of these gods is the merciful one? My answer is humanity. All those gods who came before humanity, with the one exception of the symbol of the serpent (the feminine wisdom of Eve & the masculine flesh of Adam 'humanity') is the only true god. I don't believe in original sin, so I don't believe Jesus was anything but possibly a Rabbi in his day who didn't die nor need to die for anyone. Proof of salvation is the fact that we're here. Nothing more is needed. Dying demigod saviors are a dime a dozen throughout recorded history.

Good work, Leo! Thank you for your worthy posts!
 
Medicine Woman said:
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M*W: That leads me back to the question of who are the gods of Genesis? Which one of those "gods" was the jealous one? Which one was the condemner of Adam and Eve? Which one of those gods decided that the first two humans deserved to die from original sin? I don't like this god. This god is evil. What god would have put that obstacle in Eden in the first place? I think we need to relook at which of these gods is the merciful one? My answer is humanity. All those gods who came before humanity, with the one exception of the symbol of the serpent (the feminine wisdom of Eve & the masculine flesh of Adam 'humanity') is the only true god. I don't believe in original sin, so I don't believe Jesus was anything but possibly a Rabbi in his day who didn't die nor need to die for anyone. Proof of salvation is the fact that we're here. Nothing more is needed. Dying demigod saviors are a dime a dozen throughout recorded history.

Good work, Leo! Thank you for your worthy posts!
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You need to remember that the Creation Story is just a Metaphor designed to make a point. If you come away hating God, then you probably did not capture the point that was intended.

This is what I think. God, to be as perfect as possible had to be complete as possible, and to be complete He had to create Everything and All Possibilities. But not Everything and All Possibilities were or are Good. Remember, Creation is not finished -- God only rested on the 7th day, which was not to say that work would not continue in the next week. That new work was to sort the Good from the Bad.

A third of the Angels were found to be rebellious and were ejected from Heaven. Then Adam and Eve were Tested and proven to need quite a bit of Evolution before they would measure up.

We were tested again. The Messiah was sent and we killed him. This was a horrible failure and we are still paying for it. The Letters of Paul are a Test -- will people live Righteously, or will they rely on Paul's Easy Salvation. God has Tested all the Time. Job was Tested. Lucifer or Satan is the Tester. Some of the Tests go editorially unnoticed by the writers of the Bible. Take Jacob for instance. He swindled and cheated the Birthright of the Patriarchs from his oldest Brother while lieing and defrauding his own Father. This poses a Test to every Jew -- was Jacob right to swindle, cheat, lie and defraud if he could only get away with it. The answer the Jewish People has given us is a sad and unfortunate "yes". They failed this ultimate moral test, and yet no subsequent Jewish writer has ever hinted upon it. "What moral lapse?" they object..."To succeed in a business deal is ALWAYS A VIRTUE". That one moral failure has shaped their culture and character. If Esau had been Patriarch instead of Jacob, then Christ would have been King of Kings.

Anyway, God is working hard to perfect the Universe. Only the Evil will be tossed out. Unless you are evil, you will have nothing to worry about.

Well, there is some evil in most everyone. We will be purified by experience, suffering and knowledge.
 
Medicine Woman said:
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Jesus was...a Rabbi in his day
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I really think that they should replace the Bible with a good edition of Anne Catherine Emmerich the Catholic Visionary who had a relatively complete look at the History of Redemption and the Life of Christ. Her editorializing was not very brilliant, but her raw perceptions far surpass anything from the Bible.

But Jesus was a Great Being. The Three Kings really did show up because World Prophecy was that He was the King of Kings. It really had been meant to be a New Dispensation.

And things DID happen. For instance, remember the Mythological Olypmpian Gods -- every nation on earth had a cluster of Gods. With the coming of Christ they all simply moved on. Historians look back and find a sudden skepticism among the Pagan Priest Classes. The Historians figured there must have been some unexplained cultural synchronicity -- even between Continents. But the Priests stopped beleiving in the Gods simply because the Gods left -- they flew away. The Historians were also pressed to figure out why the same people who became Skeptics to the Pagan Gods would become instant believers in the Monotheistic Religions.

As an aside, Emmerich pointed out that before Christ, in addition to the Mythological Gods having a greater presence, the earth spirits and demons were also thicker and more physically manifest on the scene. Witchcraft, Shamanism, Sorcery, Oracles -- all of that was both more common and easier to perform.

It seems obvious that the reality of Spirits must have been accepted. Look at Elijah's Contest with the 400 Priests of Bale -- to call Fire out of the Sky. If both sides knew it was a trick, then they would have both declined -- a tied match would have proven nothing. If both sides knew it was impossible, then they would have both declined -- no one wants to stand around all day waiting for nothing to happen. But everyone decided to go forward and see whose Gods would rain Fire from the Sky... First. It goes to show that strange stuff used to happen.

Besides Jesus, there have been some other Christ-like Saints in History. Saint Vincent Ferrer was actually more powerful then Jesus, and had a better and more organized Ministry. The Regions he stomped through are still Catholic. Jesus was not able to secure His ground nearly as well. More people would know who Vincent Ferrer was, but the Vatican is vain and still touchy that Vincent Ferrer, like many other Dominicans, endorced the Avignon Pope over the paranoid Italian who won the election in Rome by coersion. But the Vatican thinks that despite the irregularities that the Roman Nutcase should have been honored simply for the sake of historic continuity. So the Vatican ignores Ferrer. What the Vatican fails to consider is that perhaps if the Papacy had transferred permanently to Avignon, maybe history would have been kinder to Christendom, and there would have been no Reformational Civil War that would eventually lead to the Fall of Our Catholic Civilization.

Well... alls well that end well. The Fall of Our Civilization will occassion the Rise of the 2nd Coming. We just have to hope that this time we don't kill Him.
 
I have a vaguely related question ...

Someone once told me (I think it's written in the Bible?) that the pain women have in childbirth is their paying for committing the orignal sin, and God made it painful to punish Eve (and all women). So why don't perfect (sinless) Christian women have a pinafree birth, if they've not done anything wrong, and Jesus died for their sins too?
 
What? a whole days torture?
I bet he wishes he'd never chosen the eternity of paradise route.
I'm sure the big fella would have toned down the pain levels a little. After all, he is the powerful one.
By the way, is God a man? or just 'it'?
 
Firefly,
That is a really good question, and I hope my answer will clear up any misunderstanding.

I know that if you've heard it once, you've heard it a thousand times, but let me say it again: Christians are not perfect, just forgiven. I am a Christian, and let me tell you, if automatically being perfect was part of the job description for Christianity, my life would be a lot easier. So, although we Christians are supposed to walk in Christ's steps, sometimes we mess up. That's why Christian women can't go through labor painlessly. Hope this helps!

-historian2be
 
bigal said:
And Leo, when will you believe that the 2nd coming is here?
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2012.

The Mayan Calendar ends in 2012.

Remote Viewers don't see diddly past 2012.

Saint Malachi saw the present Pope as the second to last Pope of all times. One of the Seers from Garabandal Spain (from back in the nineteensixties) said that the Pope now will be the last Pope).

The Seers of Garabandal and the Seers of Medjugorje would see the 2nd Coming before they die. The six Garabandal Seers are in their fifties, and the Medjugorje Seers are in their forties.

An Angel told me that the Church of Paul would have only one last role to play in History.

But things may begin to happen soon. Last year some of my angels held up a banner which read "One More Year" -- but that might mean I have a heart attack, for all I know. Then I have some funny feelings about 2007.

But the End of the Old Age and the Beginning of the Next Era date is 2012
 
Firefly said:
I have a vaguely related question ...

Someone once told me (I think it's written in the Bible?) that the pain women have in childbirth is their paying for committing the orignal sin, and God made it painful to punish Eve (and all women). So why don't perfect (sinless) Christian women have a pinafree birth, if they've not done anything wrong, and Jesus died for their sins too?
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Well, perfect sinless women DO have painless childbirths. Take Mary the Blessed Virgin as an instance. The Baby Jesus, when it was time, simply passed out of the womb in a painless beam of light. Mary was so pleased and mystified by it that She at first let the Infant Jesus just lay there while She adored and admired Him. But then He began to cry and She snatched Him up.

A point to correct. Just because people 'say' that Christ died for their sins, does not really mean that God rewards People for killing the Messiah. People who think that their happiness rests on the suffering of Christ, they will have a sever price to pay on Judgment Day. They will have to pay back the Suffering that they demanded of Christ.
 
She adored and admired him? Like every mother in the world.
He began to cry like the rest.
 
bigal said:
What? a whole days torture?
I bet he wishes he'd never chosen the eternity of paradise route.
I'm sure the big fella would have toned down the pain levels a little. After all, he is the powerful one.
By the way, is God a man? or just 'it'?
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The lucky thing for most people, especially Catholics, is that they are not REALLY relying on Christ's Murder to atone for their Sins. Catholics absolve sin through confession and penance. They earn Paradise through the transforming effect of taking the Holy Sacrament. Yes, it is still doctrine that Salvation is through Crucifixion, but then so many Catholic Stigmatics have spent entire lifetimes accepting that Karma for others in the Church. Still, I think that if the Church were to change its Doctrine from one of Treating the Crucifixion as Salvation to seeing it as a Crime against God and apologize in rags and ashes for it, the World could be transformed by a New Dispensation. We have to say "we're sorry" before God can move on.

God at the Highest Level is an IT -- or an AUM.
 
historian2be said:
Leos Volont,

Where did you get your information on the Virgin's labor?

-historian2be
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Anne Catherine Emmerich -- the same lady on which the screenplay of that movie "The Passion" was based. Anne Catherine Emmerich is Catholicism's foremost Seer. Early Nineteenth Century. She was a full five wound supernatural stigmatic who did not eat or drink for over 20 years. And from an early age she simply saw everything. Whenever they would read to her from the Bible She would see the Real details -- even when they did not gibe. She used to think that everyone was seeing the same thing she was.

But the best Edition I found is "Life of Christ and History of Redemption", in 4 Volumes, by Anne Catherine Emmerich, published by Tan Books (but order from barnes and nobles since they deliver faster.
 
He lived a working life, an honest life.
He learned respect, built integrity, gave and took.
He became what was needed.
We are one.
 
Gods conscience is the collective conscience.
We produce what we want. The second coming is here.
 
bigal said:
Gods conscience is the collective conscience.
We produce what we want. The second coming is here.
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A light is not hidden under a basket. A City on a Hill will be seen by all.

The Second Coming is NOT here because I do not see it.

It will initiate a New Dispensation. Look around -- this is still the same old same old. We have the rise of the Antichrist Beast Mentality -- political conservative Greed and Amoral Secularism masquerading as Virtue. This Political Anti-Religion is the Popular Faith of the Globe -- worshipping Materialism. We will know the 2nd Coming is here when we transition out of that Materialistic Selfish Cultural Disposition. And I think it will take a Miracle.
 
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