I, personally, know because of my senses, but whether I have those senses or not would not alter the fact of the sun existing, would it?
Sinner or Saint: Which are you closer to?
- Thread starter John J. Bannan
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I, personally, know because of my senses, but whether I have those senses or not would not alter the fact of the sun existing, would it?
John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
We are talking about the difference between 100% certainty and 99.99999% certainty. Does the sun exist with 100% certainty? No. So, long as the evidence for the sun's existence is filtered through subjective human senses, we cannot be 100% certain the sun exists. Does the sun exist with 99.9999999% certainty? Yes.
John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
Good point. You can label it whatever you like, but everything we think we know is filtered through subjective human interpretation and thus always "subjective" to varying degrees.
Ah, now we're getting somewhere...
Notice the "personally".Oli said:
What we know and what is real are two different things.
Australia existed (bad example because there were the native population there) before we knew about it - undiscovered islands existed before we knew about them.
They were real before we had knowledge.
Knowledge is subjective, the reality isn't.
What we know of the sun is limited by what we can measure - but it's still there.
John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
No, you are only 100% certain the sun is there. As for true knowledge that the sun is there without reference to human senses, you can't prove it with 100% certainty. You are only so convinced that it's there - that you jump to the wrong conclusion that it must be there. No, it doesn't have to be there. You have no frame of reference besides your own senses to draw that conclusion. Your senses are subjective.
In which case, what makes you think you could ever know anything, including whether there is a God. If we do not believe our senses, the interpretation of stimuli in our environment, how do we know that we exist at all? Do we exist because we believe? No, otherwise there would be no atheists...
So the sun wasn't there until we noticed it and will no longer be there when we stop looking?
This IS solipsism.
I am responsible for everything I see... if I don't pay attention to it it ceases to exist.
Which is more likely - we conjured things out of thin air and claimed we discovered them or we actually discovered a pre-existing island?
It makes less sense to say that it only exists BECAUSE we sense it - that's the ultimate arrogance.
If pushed I'll admit there's a vanishingly small chance that we actually did create the universe by noticing it (and we create new stars and galaxies as we invent better telescopes), but this is so unlikely as to be easily dismissed.
John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
I think therefore I am. Well, actually I think I think. Can't be 100 percent certain of anything, when our knowledge is solely contained within our brains which is subjective. Yes. Yes. It sure seems like the sun must exist. But, still can't prove it with 100% certainty.
There is something called the sun that affects my senses - whether it is also exactly what you call the sun may be debatable.
But there is something there, agreed?
Otherwise my/ your senses couldn't detect it?
Else there'd be nothing for us to have a consensus on what the word "sun" refers to?
But there is something there, agreed?
Otherwise my/ your senses couldn't detect it?
Else there'd be nothing for us to have a consensus on what the word "sun" refers to?
John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
I agree the sun is there. I am just not 100% sure. I am 99.9999999% sure, but I can't fully commit given the fact that only my subjective senses tell me it's true. Is there such a thing as objective truth? Yeah, probably. But, again I can't be 100% certain of that.
I'm 100% certain something is there - otherwise the entire world is suffering a mass consensual delusion.
And I choose (or was taught) to call it the "sun".
Its effects are consistent from person to person, year to year, pretty stable illusion, don't you think?
And I choose (or was taught) to call it the "sun".
Its effects are consistent from person to person, year to year, pretty stable illusion, don't you think?
John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
You can't be 100% certain. As you point out, there is the possibility of illusion. There's the possibility you are a brain in a vat on some distant planet. I'm not saying these outlandish possibilities are true. I am only saying you can't rule them out, so you can't be 100% certain.
John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
The only evidence for the brain in the jar is that it's possible. That's my whole point.
Conceded, but so is me being responsible for everything...
there's no actual evidence for it, just wild ideas.
But there is something we call the sun - even if we're brains in a jar there's something that gives us the impression that the sun is there. Verifiably and consensually there.
Regardless of what we use to check.
there's no actual evidence for it, just wild ideas.
But there is something we call the sun - even if we're brains in a jar there's something that gives us the impression that the sun is there. Verifiably and consensually there.
Regardless of what we use to check.
if the sun went into super nova and blew up our entire solar system and destroyed every single planet including earth (obviously)
did that not actualy happen just because our senses were destroyed with the planet? or did it actualy have an impact within the universe.
reality is not subjective only the way we sense things are.
peace.
