Show that there is *religiously* motivated violence

spidergoat said:
Are you implying that I'm so desperate for friends that it makes me non-selective? Or that people who are selective have more friends? Because I think people that are selective have fewer friends than those who aren't. By the way, most of my friends are very religious.
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You seem to be throwing a double standard around here since in other posts you categorize the "very religious" by their willingness to kill outsiders (like yourself) on a whim ... unless of course you don't mind making friends with such people
 
I said that some religions include calls to violence, not that all religions do so. But in any case, I also think that some of my very religious friends are not the most coherent thinkers, although they do have other fine qualities. Do I think they would kill someone for God? Undoubtedly.
 
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lightgigantic said:
so what happened in europe?
did they run out of witches?

...Now you just have to explain why you can only cite localized incidents (contextualized by heavy political issues) within large tracts of land that are uniform in their religious leanings.
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Yes, they did run out of witches. That's the whole point, these harsh attitudes about non-conformity bring totalitarianism to large swaths of the world.
 
spidergoat said:
I said that some religions include calls to violence, not that all religions do so.
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so they are not christians or muslims since (according to you) these religious necessitate violence
But in any case, I also think that some of my very religious friends are not the most coherent thinkers, although they do have other fine qualities.
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strange that you should declare the reluctance of others to commit violence to yourself as the consequence of incoherent thinking


spidergoat said:
Yes, they did run out of witches.
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lol
when was this officially?



That's the whole point, these harsh attitudes about non-conformity bring totalitarianism to large swaths of the world.
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the problem is that you require extremely weak examples to back your argument of religion catalyzing the whole harsh attitude and non-conformity (especially when looking at it in terms of political under currents is more effective)
 
lightgigantic said:
so they are not christians or muslims since (according to you) these religious necessitate violence
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No, actually they are. But, being friends is a good antidote to religious violence. It's not a perfect one.

lightgigantic said:
strange that you should declare the reluctance of others to commit violence to yourself as the consequence of incoherent thinking
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Yes, it is a strange world. Peace through ignorance. But neither is this a perfect antidote either. One day, they may actually read.


lightgigantic said:
lol
when was this officially?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-cult_hypothesis




lightgigantic said:
the problem is that you require extremely weak examples to back your argument of religion catalyzing the whole harsh attitude and non-conformity (especially when looking at it in terms of political under currents is more effective)
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Weak? 60,000 people were murdered in Europe for witchcraft! It was a campaign of terror! There were also religiously motivated holocausts of women, so don't try to argue that this was political. Women had no political power.
 
spidergoat said:
No, actually they are. But, being friends is a good antidote to religious violence. It's not a perfect one.
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Then that brings us back to how political frameworks (ie good friendships ... as opposed to bad ones) is what you are really on about

Yes, it is a strange world. Peace through ignorance. But neither is this a perfect antidote either. One day, they may actually read.
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On the contrary not only have they (as in religionists in general) read the articles you quote as instructive to violence, but they can very often explain why these details don't really play a part in the principles that guide them in their religious lives .. probably something along the lines that Exodus is cutting edge human and civil rights advocacy .... circa 1440 BC




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-cult_hypothesis
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more politics it seems

"... As late as the 19th and early 20th centuries, some scholars had postulated that European witchcraft was part of a Satanic plot to overthrow Christianity ..."

but even then, there is this more striking problem

The King James Version and Revised English Bible use the term "witch." In North America, the term normally refers to Wiccans -- the followers of the Wiccan religion. According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE. This is some 650 years before the origin of the Celtic people circa 850 BCE from whom some elements of Wicca were taken. So Exodus 22:18 can hardly be referring to Wiccans.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl2.htm

IOW the instruction you are citing was written about 650 years before the populations that would give rise to "witch cults" even appeared.

Far from theists not being well read on the subject, I think you have to start broadening your investigation of the reading material beyond atheist hate-sites if you want to begin launching into valid critiques
:shrug:




Weak? 60,000 people were murdered in Europe for witchcraft! It was a campaign of terror! There were also religiously motivated holocausts of women, so don't try to argue that this was political. Women had no political power.
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60 000?
link please

extra brownie points if it doesn't involve persecuting a group thought to be conspirators to the dominant political paradigm (aka more political dialogue) ... which effectively rules out your witch cult link above

It seems the more you try to provide information for your examples, the weaker they become
 
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spidergoat said:
I said that some religions include calls to violence, not that all religions do so. But in any case, I also think that some of my very religious friends are not the most coherent thinkers, although they do have other fine qualities. Do I think they would kill someone for God? Undoubtedly.
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What would you kill for?
 
spidergoat said:
Do they have beards or shave? Do they prefer vodka or beer? My point is they don't do it because of atheism, because atheism has no dogma. Nothing about believing there is no God says that one should do anything about those who do.
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So they ARE atheist?
It is their mindset, that makes them act the way they do.
The only difference between them and some of the athiests I have
encountered, is, they are in a position of power, and are able to do
something about their beliefs.

Atheists have been responsible for the most murders in the last century,
and no doubt are going to continue their performance, this century.


jan.
 
spidergoat said:
Do they have beards or shave? Do they prefer vodka or beer?
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there is also a variety of hairstyles and beverage preferences for theists ....

My point is they don't do it because of atheism, because atheism has no dogma. Nothing about believing there is no God says that one should do anything about those who do.
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the only atheists that don't have beliefs are implicit ones

Clearly they aren't the one's who go around destroying religious communities
 
Jan Ardena said:
So they ARE atheist?
It is their mindset, that makes them act the way they do.
The only difference between them and some of the athiests I have
encountered, is, they are in a position of power, and are able to do
something about their beliefs.

Atheists have been responsible for the most murders in the last century,
and no doubt are going to continue their performance, this century.


jan.
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There is no mindset that can be derived from atheism other than that there is no God. I have been over this repeatedly and it's clear you will persist in your delusions no matter what.
 
lightgigantic said:
Then that brings us back to how political frameworks (ie good friendships ... as opposed to bad ones) is what you are really on about


On the contrary not only have they (as in religionists in general) read the articles you quote as instructive to violence, but they can very often explain why these details don't really play a part in the principles that guide them in their religious lives .. probably something along the lines that Exodus is cutting edge human and civil rights advocacy .... circa 1440 BC
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Interestingly, my one friend who has read all the major religious texts from cover to cover disdains organized religion. I agree that there are various explanations about why they don't do the things they are commanded to do, but it's a matter of interpretation. That's the whole problem, there are perfectly valid interpretations that would teach otherwise, and that's the danger.





lightgigantic said:
more politics it seems

"... As late as the 19th and early 20th centuries, some scholars had postulated that European witchcraft was part of a Satanic plot to overthrow Christianity ..."

but even then, there is this more striking problem

The King James Version and Revised English Bible use the term "witch." In North America, the term normally refers to Wiccans -- the followers of the Wiccan religion. According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE. This is some 650 years before the origin of the Celtic people circa 850 BCE from whom some elements of Wicca were taken. So Exodus 22:18 can hardly be referring to Wiccans.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl2.htm

IOW the instruction you are citing was written about 650 years before the populations that would give rise to "witch cults" even appeared.

Far from theists not being well read on the subject, I think you have to start broadening your investigation of the reading material beyond atheist hate-sites if you want to begin launching into valid critiques
:shrug:
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I don't care. Witchcraft is a term that could apply to any number of non Christian practices. It's a way of literally demonizing the opposition.




lightgigantic said:
60 000?
link please

extra brownie points if it doesn't involve persecuting a group thought to be conspirators to the dominant political paradigm (aka more political dialogue) ... which effectively rules out your witch cult link above

It seems the more you try to provide information for your examples, the weaker they become
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Source was wikipedia and common knowledge. I also don't care if they decided to demonize their political enemies. That's irrelevant. There are so many obvious cases of religious violence even into modern times that are clearly motivated by religion. Another example is child abuse. People are using the Bible to justify beating their children. Several have died as a result. As far as I'm concerned there is no way you can explain this away. Religion has a lot to answer for.
 
spidergoat said:
There is no mindset that can be derived from atheism other than that there is no God. I have been over this repeatedly and it's clear you will persist in your delusions no matter what.
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Is this the best you can do? :D

Tell me, how do you know the mindset of ''atheists'' if there IS no
mindset of which to speak?


jan.
 
I know they can have a mindset like any other person, but it cannot be derived from the belief that there is no God.
 
I agree to this extent- that Christians really believed non-Christians were inhabited by demonic forces.
 
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