Should we legalize drugs?

[Liebling]

Why just pot? Seems to me that some states have already legalized it and it's pretty widely accepted in a lot of America. It's the one drug that is the least associated with criminal behaviour.

Why not cocaine and methanphetamines? Why not crack cocaine? Why not heroin? What are we basing our criteria on? How about opium?

If you take away the criminal aspect, what will gangs fight over? How would all the thugs make their money? Why would you go to a drug dealer and not your local pharmacy to get your fix? Think about the money we could make in taxing it, and how much we would save in taxpayer money by not having to fund drug task forces, the DEA, and huge drug busts.

 

[Liebling]

i dont understand that logic. crack is cheap enough to buy, but the price of a single hit is not the issue.

many people know what it is like to live in areas where drugs are basically legal because if you can walk to a corner and get what you want then what is the difference? do some research on neighborhoods where crack is that easy to get and see what the result is.

Okay, now look at it from this point;

If the crack addicts can get it from their local pharmacy... why would there be any drug turf at all? People shooting each other for what then?

 

[John99]

Okay, now look at it from this point;

If the crack addicts can get it from their local pharmacy... why would there be any drug turf at all? People shooting each other for what then?

so you see where your scenario falls apart and now you bring 'turf wars' into it.

if there was no product to sell that would stop turf wars. in most cases though turf wars are a small part of the impact drugs have.

ok, so now you want crack heads and people out of their minds on drugs shopping alongside you at the pharmacy?

 

[John99]

thats some plan.

 

[Liebling]

Sure, why not? They'll do themselves in eventually. And with their shortened life span, they'll produce less children who are genetically predispositioned to be addicts themselves. I have people shopping alongside me now at the pharmacy that are out of their minds on drugs, they just got a doctor to prescribe them.

If there was nothing to see or trade worth having that someone else might not have, what reason would you have for fighting a territory war... well, other than bigotry, racism and hatred that is? Those people are a dying breed, they'll take themselves out eventually too. Why do we insist on nuturing people who can't control themselves?

 

[John99]

there is no genetic predisposition to drug addiction. this is a myth the perpetuates the cycle and offers an excuse.

addicts do usually come from bad homes or dysfunctional families but that can be for so many reasons. even something like 'mom loved my brother more than me'. usually these people cannot cope with things and self medicate. we need to find out what the problem is and get them real help. your argument seems to be that they are worth less than other people but that is not true at all. or worse that they kill themselves anyway. everyone deserves a chance, we cannot just throw people to the sharks and sacrifice them.

 

[Liebling]

There is plenty of research linking addiction to genetics;

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/03/20/TampaBay/Study_links_genetic_t.shtml

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=18991966

http://www.tgorski.com/news_analysis/Treatment/genetics_of_addiction_confirmed (2-10-01).htm

And I am perfectly willing to help people who want help, but there are people who don't want help and actively refuse help. I am not saying that they are less than people, or not worthy of living, I am just saying that we take too much time and resources away from people who want help and focus on the people who don't want help. This kind of genetic predisposition might be natures way of removing certain groups from the evolutionary scale, survival of the fittest and all that. My adoptive mother was a horrible drunk, and I had a horrible home life but I'm not an addictive personality nor is my adoptive brother, but my sister who is her biological child is. Her father was a drunk, her brother died of consumption at 42, her sister and 4 of her 5 kids... yep, all addicts of one poison or another. There is definitely a genetic trait along with environment that causes that.

But don't attribute to me your idea that I think there are different values for different people. I think people are all equal, but I also want them to be equally responsible. If you are an addict... get help and don't breed. If you have a genetic disease that can be carried to your children, don't breed.

The Jewish community as a whole has taken responsibility and a lot of it's members get tested for Tay-Sachs and they find ways to root out that genetic trait. Why not addiction?

And please save the "God gave me the right to breed" for the religion section.

 

[John99]

your argument is full of contradictions.

I think people are all equal, but I also want them to be equally responsible.

so if it is genetic predisposition then how can you hold them responsible?

your personal experience can, and i believe it is, due to a learned behavior.
the siblings came to view this as normal behavior, in a way they just got used to it and it carried over into their lives. this is not predisposition and in no way genetic disease or defect.

one thing that helps create an addict is availability another is some conflict inside of them and still another is the belief that it will not happen to them. sometimes it is all three but without availability there are no addicts.

the thing is with legalization you may give the impression that some substances are equal to others in terms of damaging effects. that is the main issue i see.

 

[Liebling]

Then why did it skip my brother and I? I mean if it's learned and not genetic, I should be an addict too, right? The numbers dont' work out. It might help you to read the links I posted because there really is a lot of study on addiction and genetics.

Do you know why teenagers cut themselves? To feel something. Much the way addicts do. Are you going to take away their blades because that's availbility? What about glue and spray paint? Oh yes, availability is the problem, not the person... right?

Addicts will find anything to alter or escape their experience. There have even been brain scans and studies ont he chemicals released when an addict gets their fix. How does that happen? I think you might not understand the science of addiction at all, and only the side that wants to save the world and thinks that kissing every boo-boo will make it better. Lets try and be realistic here. Addiction isn't about availability, but it's about the feeling you get from the activity you are addicted to.

But despite your denial and inability to produce any proof that it isn't genetic, there is mounds of evidence saying that it is.

 

[John99]

i cannot accept that it is genetic because there are millions of addicts who have no previous family history of substance abuse. of course somewhere along the line you will find a drunk family member.

you use the term skipped to imply a genetic link but this is an emotional and psychological issue. medically the only thing that holds the key here is the human brain but this does not mean these people were born defective. sure it is good that your brither and yourself did not become addicts but dont you think that if your siblings were taken out of that situation then the chances of them becoming addicts would decrease to possibly even zero.

this is not to blame the parents though because you have to accept that they also had a weakness and turned to something to help them cope with problems. lets face it, these issues exist in intelligent beings but what people should realize is that in the long run they make their problems soooo much worse.

Do you know why teenagers cut themselves? To feel something. Much the way addicts do. Are you going to take away their blades because that's availbility? What about glue and spray paint? Oh yes, availability is the problem, not the person... right?

Addicts will find anything to alter or escape their experience. There have even been brain scans and studies ont he chemicals released when an addict gets their fix. How does that happen? I think you might not understand the science of addiction at all, and only the side that wants to save the world and thinks that kissing every boo-boo will make it better. Lets try and be realistic here. Addiction isn't about availability, but it's about the feeling you get from the activity you are addicted to.

glue and spray paint? addicts are very preferential in their drug of choice so that is a minuscule issue, but you are not going to stop everyone from doing these things and we just cannot ban glue or paint.

of course there is a chemical reaction to getting high, if there were not then people would not use drugs because there would be no effect. But that is true for everyone and is not in one persons genes and not another.

This is not an issue like a physical disease. if you think we can eradicate this from the gene pool..that is not going to happen.

 

[Liebling]

So your answer is... no, I'm not going to read your links because I already believe I am right. That's all you really had to say.

Lemme summarize for the dogmatic;

The genetic basis of addiction encompasses two broad areas of enquiry. One of these is the identification of genetic variation in humans that partly determines susceptibility to addiction. The other is the use of animal models to investigate the role of specific genes in mediating the development of addiction. Whereas recent advances in this latter effort are heartening, a major challenge remains: to understand how the many genes implicated in rodent models interact to yield as complex a phenotype as addiction.

TAMPA -- In the hunt for the powerful forces that drive addictions, researchers say they have definitively linked a common genetic trait to drug and alcohol abuse.

The discovery, which elaborates on earlier suspicions about a gene called mu-opioid, eventually may help people measure their own risk for addiction, and help scientists design more effective drugs for treating substance abuse.

The study is published in this month's issue of Molecular Psychiatry

Annual Review of Psychology
Vol. 53: 435-462 (Volume publication date February 2002)
(doi:10.1146/annurev.psych.53.100901.135142)

GENETIC CONTRIBUTIONS TO ADDICTION*

John C. Crabbe

Portland Alcohol Research Center, Department of Behavioral Neuroscience, Oregon Health & Science University, and VA Medical Center, Portland, Oregon; e-mail: crabbe@ohsu.edu


▪ Abstract Even the most extreme environmentalists along the nature-nurture continuum in psychology now acknowledge that genes often contribute to individual differences in behavior. Behavioral traits are complex, reflecting the aggregate effects of many genes. These genetic effects are interactive, inter se and with the environments in which they are expressed. Human studies of addictive behaviors have clearly implicated both environmental and genetic influences. This review selects drug dependence as a paradigmatic addiction, and further, concentrates on the extensive literature with genetic animal models. Both traditional studies with inbred strains and selected lines and studies exploiting the new molecularly based technologies of the genomics era are discussed. Future directions for further contribution of animal models studies to our understanding of the brain dysregulations characteristic of addictions are identified.

Shall I go on, or do you need more?

Recognizing it as a genetic disease, will further the possibility that we can find a medical cure for these people. Denying that it is genetic at all, only further adds to the problem by telling people "It's all in your head".

 

[swarm]

Prove it.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/03/14/portugal/

"Evaluating the policy strictly from an empirical perspective, decriminalization has been an unquestionable success, leading to improvements in virtually every relevant category and enabling Portugal to manage drug-related problems (and drug usage rates) far better than most Western nations that continue to treat adult drug consumption as a criminal offense."

 

[swarm]

the best thing would be to stop growing the drugs to begin with.

Don't make me laugh.

"Drugs" bring in 10x to 1000x what beans bring in. Its a cash crop and often the only one where it is grown.

As long as there is demand, there is growing and there is always going to be demand.

People like getting high and most do it without issues, even with it illegal and not really having a clue what they are doing.