Should we ban the Kosher/Halal method of killing unstunned animals?

[GeoffP]

Is there any guarantee that everytime an animal is stunned it won't feel excruciating pain.

Beats the shit out of slowly cutting an animal's throat open. Here, have a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U3hAeD6jq0

Being knocked out from impact and being knocked via stunning are different methods. An animal should have the right to fight for it's life.

I'm sorry: exactly what kind of fight is an animal locked up in a constriction pen capable of? Maybe you'd like to get in there with a bayonet and have a go if you're hard enough.

In any case the problem in using stunning in halal and kosher method is that the animal will die from the stunning itself which will render it's meat unlawful to eat.

Put more succinctly: we don't care. It has to end. Go veg if you want.

 

[Michael]

Is there any guarantee that everytime an animal is stunned it won't feel excruciating pain. Being knocked out from impact and being knocked via stunning are different methods. An animal should have the right to fight for it's life. In any case the problem in using stunning in halal and kosher method is that the animal will die from the stunning itself which will render it's meat unlawful to eat.

I'm not sure of your point?

There's plenty of your Bronze Age religious laws that are illegal in most modern societies from Japan and China to Europe and the USA. Take Bronze Age religious laws regarding polygamy. Illegal. Take Bronze Age religious laws regarding punishiment by stoning. Illegal.

So the answer may simply be this: You don't get to kill animals by your Bronze Age religious laws either. It's that simple. Become vegetarian for all I care. I'm not bending my moral standing on humane slaughter to satisfy your Bronze Age superstition.

 

[IamJoseph]

Did you see the animal stunned in the first part of video one? It was out in less time than it probably takes to registrar it was even stunned.

If this is seen as correct, it is following the Kosher mode: offering less pain. Nothing else is happening here.

 

[GeoffP]

How does the kosher mode differ from that? Sounds like throat-slitting.

 

[Michael]

There's a video on "Kosher" throat slitting - it's the exact same method Muslims use.

 

[GeoffP]

Then - ban it. Not acceptable.

 

[S.A.M.]

As someone who has actually euthanized animals, I'll take the rapid unconsciousness rendered by a stunner over stabbing an animal in the jugular any day. It would be hard to imagine anyone with experience arguing otherwise

I'd be interested to compare experiences with you, but you have confirmed what I said - methods of killing are chosen by how they affect humans rather than animals. The yuck factor takes precedence over what the animal actually feels.

Did you see the animal stunned in the first part of video one? It was out in less time than it probably takes to registrar it was even stunned.

How long does it take the animal to register a loss in blood pressure through jugular blood loss? How does an electric shock compare to a cut in terms of intensity of pain? What is the criteria being used here? What happens if an animal regains consciousness after being stunned? The fact that it is protocol to give a second bolt in facilities shows that it is possible for the animal to regain consciousness. And how do you know that the animal does or does not register the pain of stunning?

From my own experiences I'll say that I have seen, over and over, that if it "looks" good, then no one really cares what the animal feels. The whole "humane slaughter" rigamarole is to make people feel better, not animals.

 

[GeoffP]

I'd be interested to compare experiences with you, but you have confirmed what I said - methods of killing are chosen by how they affect humans rather than animals. The yuck factor takes precedence over what the animal actually feels.

I'd say an animal shuddering, licking, blinking and trying to escape is one that is not dead, particularly as the CNS has not been in any way affected. I can infer from the execution of people via throat-sawing that the animal experiences considerable awareness and excruciating pain.

Making people feel better about the process is part of the process - most places - yes. But that feeling of semi-relief is based in the almost certainly correct interpretation of reduced pain. If you want to guess at their feelings and speculate that no one can know the experience of an animal, go ahead. I'll take the most likely option of the lot rather than making it a speculative neo-intellectual exercise.

 

[S.A.M.]

Let me put it this way, if the bolt gun is such a gosh darned great method of stunning why don't they use it on people on death row to knock them out? Or are you a supporter of the electric chair as well?

 

[Michael]

Let me put it this way, if the bolt gun is such a gosh darned great method of stunning why don't they use it on people on death row to knock them out? Or are you a supporter of the electric chair as well?

Good point, my State doesn't have the death penalty for human animals. However, if it were me personally, and I had to choose a method of my own death, then I would prefer to die by being dropped out of an airplane - hell, if it's the last few moments of existence, lets have some fun Maybe THAT'S how we should kill animals?

Florida and Sparky aside, I believe most States opt for sedative followed by lethal injection. I don't think that could be done to food animals - as it would poison their meat.

- I do agree that it may be the case that an improperly stunned animal is in more pain than a properly throat slit one.

- Do you agree it may be the case that a properly stunned animal is in less pain than a properly throat slit one?


From the evidence I saw, it looks like a properly stunned animal is in WAY LESS pain than a properly throat slit one. Also, the environment was much less stressful prior to the event (animals react to the sound of another animal screaming and to the smell of blood). Also, many animals don't scream when in pain as a reflex to protect the herd by not drawing more attention. Just some things to think about.


I'm certainly all for the science being done. That's the whole point in science. Speaking of which.

IF we find that the stunning method is much less painful compared with the throat slit method, do you support the use of that method over throat slit? Would you eat meat that was killed the more humane method if it wasn't throat slit?

Suppose your friend asked you to taste some curry he made. 5 types, he wondered your opinion. 3 were Kosher, 2 were stun only. He couldn't remember which was which. Would you eat the meat in these curry's?






I wonder, suppose if all the Muslim and Jewish religious "leaders" around the world, after reading their magical "perfect" Bronze Age religious books, came to the conclusions that the invisible Sky-Daddy doesn't like stunning. You know, the one that no one has ever seen, heard or spoken to except when stoned or deranged or lying: God says he wants you to give me ya money! Praise the Lord, Praise Mohammad err Jabeesus. If these religious "leaders" decided God thinks stunning is "impure". I just wonder, what percentage of Muslim and Jews would be AGAINST stunning even if it was found to be much less painful and opt to instead remain mired in their Bronze Age superstition unable or unwilling to join the rest of humanity? You know, running "experiments" where they find throat slitting is so much more "pure" and the meat less "dangerous to eat" oh and the world is only 6000 years old too.

If you ever wonder why certain people are not moving forward, while others are, think back to this.

 

[Big Chiller]

Beats the shit out of slowly cutting an animal's throat open. Here, have a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U3hAeD6jq0

This is quite silly it's as if you're not even aware that Westerners too kill animals. I don't know where you came up with slowly cutting an animal's throat it sure looked quick. A stun may look brief but excruciating pain can extend time.

 

[Big Chiller]

Little known ancient biology:

A cow has a loop in one of its four throat veins - the loop is in the vein which directs blood to the brain. When this vein is cut, it stops blood flow to the brain, which means there is no pain and the animal becomes unconcscious within a few seconds.

The only animals which possess this blood flow stopping loop are those animals with two specific attributes: split hoofs and those which chew their cud [masticates the food]. This is stated in an ancient text 1000's of years old, and its source for knowing this detail is a mystery.

Further, the same source says a pig is the only animal which has split hooves but does not chew its cud: the odds for any such knowledge to be known among all millions of creatures throughout the world is a mystery. To offset any notion this is a fluke guess, the same source goes on to list three other animals which do the reverse of the pig: these chew the cud but have no split hooves.

There is nothing bad about a pig - but if it is slauthered in the kosher way, it will feel great pain - it does not have the right traits. That's how fastidious the Hebrew bible is about kindness to animals - applying it even when killing for consumption!

Another mystery in the Hebrew bible is not to mix meat and milk. We may not be able to identify if the milk belongs to which slaughtered animal - but another animal can easily identify if that milk is from her child, and it constitutes a cruel thing for a human to kill both the mother and offspring together or near each other.

The lion is not bad because it eats a cow, and the cow is not good because it does not eat the lion. These animals have no choice here.

Btw although these ritually cut animals may be more painfully slaughtered. These videos are not proof for that. The movement by the animal does not have to be related to pain. It can be a cause of blood flow and other physiological factors. So in this case what you 'see' can be 'deceptive' for the point you're trying to get across. That is they 'feel pain'.

A change in calcium concentrations in the muscle can probably cause jerky and uncontrolled motion- it doesn't mean its painful.

Peace be unto you

I really think there's truth to what they are saying I don't think a sheep, cow, or chicken feel as much pain as a human or a pig would from having their throats cut.

 

[GeoffP]

What, are you serious?

Let me put it this way red herring red herring red herring

Let me put it this way: who are "they"? Are "they" involved in both decisions? Do members of the Stockmen's Association and USDA serve in the Department of Corrections? Over what time frame involving the simultaneous formulation of IACUC regulations and State law? I'm sorry: it's just that I haven't heard of such a cross-appointment that would give rise to the joint implementation of such an idea in livestock management and corrections. Let me know if you come across one.

if the bolt gun is such a gosh darned great method of stunning why don't they use it on people on death row to knock them out?

Because I would expect it's considered undignified to use methods for euthanizing livestock on humans? Also raising the issue of whether it would do the job; no one's going to eat a human afterward, or it is hoped not, so the injection of lethal chemicals doesn't look like a health hazard for consumers. There are other reasons. I expect you'll keep on this line for a while; thrilled to see where this one goes. "Why don't they kill people like livestock?" Hell, who knows. A mystery.

Or are you a supporter of the electric chair as well?

Heavens, no. It's an arbitrary ethical level of punishment for human crime. I much prefer the firing squad, me.

You'll actually also note that the chair is about out of service:

As of 2010, electrocution is an optional form of execution in the U.S. states of Alabama, Florida, South Carolina and Virginia, though they allow the prisoner to choose lethal injection as an alternative method. In the states of Kentucky and Tennessee, the electric chair has been retired except for those whose capital crimes were committed prior to legislated dates in 1998 (Kentucky March 31, 1998, Tennessee December 31, 1998) and who choose electrocution. In both states, inmates who do not choose electrocution or inmates who committed their crimes after the designated date are killed by lethal injection. The electric chair is an alternate form of execution approved for potential use in Arkansas, Illinois, and Oklahoma if other forms of execution are found unconstitutional in the state at the time of execution. On February 8, 2008, the Nebraska Supreme Court determined that execution via the electric chair was a "cruel and unusual punishment" under the State's constitution. This brought executions of this type to an end in Nebraska, the only remaining state to retain electrocution as its sole method of execution.

 

[GeoffP]

This is quite silly it's as if you're not even aware that Westerners too kill animals.

By slowly slicing their throats open?

I don't know where you came up with slowly cutting an animal's throat it sure looked quick.

What a tenous connection to reality you have. The animals writhing in pain for as much as ten or fifteen seconds after having their throat cut seemed short to you? They do say time is relative.

A stun may look brief but excruciating pain can extend time.

Except when one's throat is cut? Then the time probably just flies by.

...

It's funny. One can see the amazing pain the animals are in; it's impossible to miss. But neither you nor Sam nor Joseph seems to mind. Any excuse in a pinch. God's watching, you know.

 

[S.A.M.]

Do you agree it may be the case that a properly stunned animal is in less pain than a properly throat slit one?

Nope, because...drumroll...there is no evidence to support that contention.

 

[superstring01]

Nope, because...drumroll...there is no evidence to support that contention.

Wait.

I'm all for halal meats (there's a vendor down the street from me). But, do you really think that an unconscious animal would feel less pain than one who's conscious while having its throat slit? We aren't that different from cows in that sense. I sure would rather be sedated before having my jugulars cut open.

~String

 

[IamJoseph]

I really think there's truth to what they are saying I don't think a sheep, cow, or chicken feel as much pain as a human or a pig would from having their throats cut.

This does not impact, given the percieving of this pain seen by others. We know that there is pain in the realm of life forms, that animals as well as humans cry and scream. However, in all cases, the pain is limited by duration and intensity - once it passes a certain threshold, the pain disappears. There is no pain in death - there is only pain in life. Who's ever seen a sad or grimaced corpse - they all look in peace and transquil, if anything we only see a sort of smirk, like they are laughing at all our percieved notions, and they saw something totally different.

 

[Michael]

Nope, because...drumroll...there is no evidence to support that contention.

And as to the curry sampling?

 

[Michael]

This does not impact, given the percieving of this pain seen by others. We know that there is pain in the realm of life forms, that animals as well as humans cry and scream. However, in all cases, the pain is limited by duration and intensity - once it passes a certain threshold, the pain disappears. There is no pain in death - there is only pain in life. Who's ever seen a sad or grimaced corpse - they all look in peace and transquil, if anything we only see a sort of smirk, like they are laughing at all our percieved notions, and they saw something totally different.

That's called rigamortis and can be explained biochemically.

 

[GeoffP]

Nope, because...drumroll...there is no evidence to support that contention.

Drumroll...actually, there's even less hard evidence of the being who supposedly commands this in the first place. (Is there such a thing as less than nothing?)

But, dealing with your quest for evidence, I recommend the following slide series and the cited reference therein (Gregory and Wotton 1986).

http://www.nifa.usda.gov/nea/animals/pdfs/bioethics_buhr.pdf

The slicing of both carotids apparently causes brain functional failure in 2 1/2 minutes. Now, note the changes in brainwave function post-stun on slide 26. Stunning eliminates brainwave function immediately. (Still, maybe their soul is suffering: for unbelief, presumably.)

While we're discussing experientalism in the defense of unethical slaughter, there's also observation; we are forced to interpret from observation that animals killed via halal methods are in excruciating pain for some time. I would have only said 15-30 seconds, but the broiler example above suggests that the process may be more than five times as long as the most liberal estimate of this period.

In other words, halal and kosher slaugher are immoral and unethical.