Should science replace religion?

[wegs]

This is a misuse of Facebook IMO I have a friend (a climbing gym friend) who just got remarried a couple of years ago. His wife is the kind of religious person who has to mention "God" in every post but it's usually not a dramatic post. It's usually "Here are pictures from a wonderful day hiking in the mountains. Thank you God, I'm so blessed".

Tonight she just posted this,"Dearest prayer warriors, I humbly request your intercession. Specifically for a tough conversation that will likely occur tomorrow. I need His wisdom, His words, His kindness, gentleness, and strength to be courageous. Prayers and/or scripture greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance."

My first thought was "WTF". This serves no purpose other than to seel attention. I am curious as to what the big deal is. She is either getting a divorce, going to the doctor, putting a dog down or having to return a purse to Nordstrom's that she's had for a year and is worrying about the return.

In any event, even with my limited understanding of "prayer", this is nonsensical. Should I say...

"Dear God, I'm praying for my friend who may be needing your wisdom, probably tomorrow and she is going to need your wisdom , gentleness and strength. I think she'll probably contact you directly but just to make sure, I'm contacting you as well.

I think some of her other friends (prayer warriors) will be contacting you too. Please don't be annoyed that some many people are contacting you or that none of us know what is going on. We assume that you already know what is going on. Thanks, praise to you God".

lol Ugh. Yea.

I have friends on FB who do the same. I see nothing wrong with offering to pray for someone if you feel inclined to offering that (if your intentions are good), but not making it a display on Facebook. That kind of thing is more like ''Look at meee, I'm a good Christian everyyyybodyyyy!''

You should post this in reply:

''But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.'' Matthew 6:6

Although, hoping for a reward shouldn't be what motivates someone to pray. That passage is tied in with a bigger picture if I recall, where Jesus is telling his followers that the Pharisees do everything for show, and their reward will be an earthly one. So, it's not a quote to suggest that hey, if you pray, you'll be rewarded...it's more to point out that those who look for validation from others, they already get their reward here.

The Pharisees would have adored Facebook.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I hope that someday science replaces willful stupidity.

 

[wegs]

I hope that someday science replaces willful stupidity.

Aw, do you feel that people who believe in God, are engaging in willful stupidity?

Why is believing that there could be something more than this material world, equivalent to ignorance? Is it the worship part that gets to you? Worship is a tough thing, I will admit. We don't like to surrender our wills to anyone, but ourselves. Once upon a time, I left my beliefs, and just moved along in life. Not that long ago, actually. And, I felt a bit empty. One could conclude that the indoctrination from my childhood caused this cognitive dissonance.

Maybe. Maybe we're living in The Matrix, and this is all just an illusion. We'll know for sure, someday.....................

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Aw, do you feel that people who believe in God, are engaging in willful stupidity?

Yes.

 

[wegs]

Yes.

Why?

 

[Goldtop]

Some Christian denominations hold the opinion that Genesis isn't to be taken literally. I believe that Pope Francis came out a few years ago, declaring that it's perfectly fine for believers to accept the theory of evolution.

The painfully obvious hypocrisy of that statement speaks volumes. Perhaps, God shouldn't be taken seriously, then?

 

[wegs]

The painfully obvious hypocrisy of that statement speaks volumes. Perhaps, God shouldn't be taken seriously, then?

Well, maybe organized religion is the problem, and not mere belief in a higher power. I don't need the Pope or any other religous type ''leader'' to tell me what to believe. That's just my view.

 

[Jeeves]

Although, hoping for a reward shouldn't be what motivates someone to pray.

Yes, it's legit, by Jehova's rules. You're supposed to be able to ask him for favours. ("Knock and the door shall be opened; Ask and it shall be given," etc.) You're also expected to say thank you, and to ask for forgiveness * when you've transgressed.
* Trouble starts when you have to make amends by killing somebody.

Why is believing that there could be something more than this material world, equivalent to ignorance?

But that's not religion. "could be" and "something" are not what religion are about.

Is it the worship part that gets to you?

The self-denial, yes; the sacrifice, yes; the abasement, yes;
the abrogation of individual responsibility - yes
the immersion of innocents in unearned guilt and fear - YES

We don't like to surrender our wills to anyone, but ourselves.

Yes, they do. That is exactly what they want. It makes them easy prey: God is a sock-puppet, amplifying and legitimizing the desire of a few over the discarded autonomy of many.

 

[Goldtop]

Like homosexuality?

Are you finding homosexuals are having sex in front of you, telling you that if you don't have sex with them, you'll roast in an eternal flame?

Yeah, that would be a real problem.

 

[spidergoat]

Why is believing that there could be something more than this material world, equivalent to ignorance?

The wilful ignorance usually comes when they ignore revealed facts in order to justify continuing in unjustified beliefs. I should point out that atheism doesn't exclude the abstract idea that there may be something more than the material world. At present, I just don't see what evidence there could be of that. So we are talking again about beliefs, with very real consequences, without evidence to support them, and often with sound evidence against them.

Maybe. Maybe we're living in The Matrix, and this is all just an illusion

Maybe we can avoid discussions of solipsism for now, it's not helpful.

We'll know for sure, someday

Not likely, since the organs of knowing are perishable.

 

[wegs]

Yes, it's legit, by Jehova's rules. You're supposed to be able to ask him for favours. ("Knock and the door shall be opened; Ask and it shall be given," etc.) You're also expected to say thank you, and to ask for forgiveness * when you've transgressed.
* Trouble starts when you have to make amends by killing somebody.

I find the passage whereby Abraham feels he is being called by God to kill his son, Isaac...beyond troubling. The thing I try to remember about reading the Bible, is it's a complex, contradictory book that is meant to read in its entirety. I have found myself reading snippets here and there, most of my life, and it never made any sense. Not saying it will make anymore sense if you read it from front cover to back, but at least the complete story line will be there. What intrigues me about the Bible the most, is that a cast of characters that most likely existed in ancient times, had different stories to tell about their everyday lives, culture, and who God meant to them. Every culture has a story about a god, or set of gods. Maybe I'm just enamored with ''world religions,'' but they have shaped our world, for better or for worse. It's been a hobby of mine for a few years now, to understand different beliefs, ranging from Wicca to Pagan rituals, to Judaism, to Islam etc. How could we deny that yearning for something beyond this life is a palpable reality with many humans, when for centuries, we have been doing so?

 

[wegs]

The wilful ignorance usually comes when they ignore revealed facts in order to justify continuing in unjustified beliefs. I should point out that atheism doesn't exclude the abstract idea that there may be something more than the material world.

That's a very good point. Einstein commented on such things.

At present, I just don't see what evidence there could be of that. So we are talking again about beliefs, with very real consequences, without evidence to support them, and often with sound evidence against them.

The rub comes in, where objective evidence would be considered science, then. Believers aren't under the impression that they're being duped, but rather they choose to make the leap of faith to believing in something that can't be proven, under standard measurements.

Maybe we can avoid discussions of solipsism for now, it's not helpful.

Nothing to say we can't discuss this. My comments are sometimes rhetorical, though.

Not likely, since the organs of knowing are perishable.

Possibly.

 

[billvon]

Are you finding homosexuals are having sex in front of you, telling you that if you don't have sex with them, you'll roast in an eternal flame?

Nope. Never had an evangelical do that to me, either. I doubt you have.

 

[billvon]

The painfully obvious hypocrisy of that statement speaks volumes.

No more of a hypocrite than a US citizen who is opposed to human trafficking.

 

[iceaura]

Creationism is irrelevant to the issue. It is not a core doctrine of any of the main strands of Christianity and is obviously not going to be followed by any scientist with a brain. I know Americans have a political problem with vocal and well-funded creationists in their Bible Belt, but this is not representative of serious Christian thought. It really isn't. Christianity is a bit bigger than the Southern Baptist Convention

The American fundamentalists are quite a bit bigger - in their worldwide political influence certainly - than the collective body of enlightened European Christians for whom Creationism is somehow magically irrelevant. (So are the S and C Catholic Christians, the African Catholic Christians, and the increasingly numerous Protestant sects in those regions, who have yet to get the memo from the Vatican about the true nature of serious Christian belief.)

They elected W, for example, and backed his religiously justified actions to the hilt - thereby bringing the world the invasion and occupation of Iraq in 2003 (which some of them openly described as a "Crusade", until their minders taught them discretion).
They did that on explicitly Christian, explicitly religious, grounds - openly and loudly.
Likewise their election of Donald Trump to the Presidency - that campaign was won in the churches as much as on Facebook (large overlap, there), and the violation of campaign laws by the churches involved was at least as flagrant and almost certainly more effective than anything the Russian trolls were doing.
They do, in fact, represent the mainstream, central, most influential and powerful strain of Christian thought on this planet. If you don't want to describe their thinking as "serious", ok - but pretending they are some kind of fringe is dangerous.

 

[Goldtop]

Creationism is irrelevant to the issue.

About one in three Americans believe humans were created and always existed in their present form, I would say that's rather substantial. As far as scientists are concerned, the list grows smaller all the time, but there's still dissension:

Among the signatories were 21 U.S. National Academy of Science members, nine MacArthur Fellowship awardees, and a Nobel laureate. According to [petition starter R. Joe Brandon's] analysis, of those who signed his petition, there were:

• 3,385 with biology in their title
• 850 with anthropology/archaeology
• 680 with evolutionary & ecology
• 394 from the field of genetics
• 270 from geology and related fields
• 234 from the fields of physics, astronomy, or space sciences
• 111 chemists
• 110 psychologists
• 75 computer scientists
• 50 engineers

Christianity is a bit bigger than the Southern Baptist Convention.

Creationism is bigger than the SBC, one in three people, that's around 100 million folks in the US alone.

take a quick look at someone like Ken Miller:

Thanks, that's a good read.

 

[Goldtop]

Well, maybe organized religion is the problem, and not mere belief in a higher power

Belief in a higher power originates from organized religion. Often, it becomes the alternative to organized religion because it's getting such a bad reputation. Remove organized religion and belief in a higher power will probably go with it.

 

[Goldtop]

No more of a hypocrite than a US citizen who is opposed to human trafficking

Sorry, I don't know what that means??? What human trafficking???

 

[Jeeves]

I find the passage whereby Abraham feels he is being called by God to kill his son, Isaac...beyond troubling.

Why? Two things happened there: God tested Abraham's obedience - after all, He'd given the man a present and He could ask for it back. Not a nice thing to do, be He had the right. Sarah could always get another handmaid...
Really, the story's meant to illustrate a cultural development - the transition from human to animal sacrifice; possibly marking the departure of a herding tribe from a larger settled agrarian nation.

The thing I try to remember about reading the Bible, is it's a complex, contradictory book that is meant to read in its entirety.

It wasn't meant to be read at all by the general population.
And, remember, the books were collected from several different sites, times and peoples.
Their inclusion in a single volume was arbitrary; it wasn't necessarily done by well-informed men, and it certainly wasn't intended for a future audience with our vastly expanded and altered world-view.

How could we deny that yearning for something beyond this life is a palpable reality with many humans, when for centuries, we have been doing so?

We can't. But you might consider asking the next questions: Why did people yearn? And how did they get the answers they got?

 

[billvon]

Sorry, I don't know what that means??? What human trafficking???

Human trafficking is the modern form of slavery, both for sex and labor. There are thousands of victims a year here in the US.