Should Freedom of Religion include Freedom from Religion?

[Musika]

Stalin was a dictator, he murdered millions and did not care if they had faith in Catholicism or not.

Once again, your views do not tally with history.
If you were a catholic under Stalin you faced the double whammy of not only being religious but also identifying with something that was (and still is) seen as alien to Russian traditions and culture
Catholics copped it harder than the Russian Orthodoxy.

The atrocities he committed were widespread across not just religious, but political, social and economical landscapes.

Hence being religious in any way, as well as political, social or economic in particular ways, were key means to turn up on the domestic soviet radar and hence get removed from the ecosystem. To identify as religious in any way is a surefire way to disturb the status quo of politics that aggressively demands and promotes atheism.

It is delusional to think atheism or religion had anything to do with Stalin's methods.

Given that he gave very clear orders on not only how but also why to destroy religion and promote atheism, it is very clear which aspects of history you are ignoring to maintain this opinion of yours.

 

[iceaura]

Then take it back to meme and the memester who attempted to introduce this as a valid grounds for discussion.

The "doctrine of atheism" bs has been brought to you - for repudiation or acknowledgment.

"No atheist has ever killed anyone in the name of atheism (unlike the religious and their associated ideas"
"What about Stalin?"
"Well, he wasn't a real communist"

How very - - - odd.
You combine your familiar confusion of theism and religion with a weird mixup of atheism and communism, right after calling for closer attention to history in this very thread, and a couple threads removed from denying the existence of atheism altogether - it's like watching a cat deal with a face-popped bubble of gum.

Until quite recently in history, for thousands of years (literally), communists in the Western world were largely Christian. That's the New Testament recommended economic organization of Christian community.

The monks at the heart of the various Christian terrors - the Spanish Inquisition, say - were members of communist Orders.

 

[Musika]

The "doctrine of atheism" bs has been brought to you - for repudiation or acknowledgment.

How very - - - odd.
You combine your familiar confusion of theism and religion with a weird mixup of atheism and communism, right after calling for closer attention to history in this very thread, and a couple threads removed from denying the existence of atheism altogether - it's like watching a cat deal with a face-popped bubble of gum.

Until quite recently in history, for thousands of years (literally), communists in the Western world were largely Christian. That's the New Testament recommended economic organization of Christian community.

I'm just playing by what the consensus want to accept as a level playing field. If you find problems with the gradient you should make your stand from several pages back.

Edit : i did go back and fix up the word usage in the post you quoted. That mistake, I will admit, was mine.

 

[iceaura]

I'm just playing by what the consensus want to accept as a level playing field.

There is no consensus that provides you with anything resembling atheist doctrine, or any basis for continuing to confuse theism and religion.
Neither is there historical support, or presented argument.

 

[Musika]

From experience, it is indeed. Education merely reduces it; it can never eliminate it. Some people are allergic to education.

So what do you propose to teach to reduce ignorance?
If atheism is bereft of values, views, history, goals, etc etc, I guess then by default, it's not on the syllabus.

 

[Goldtop]

Once again, your views do not tally with history.

Nope.

If you were a catholic under Stalin you faced the double whammy of not only being religious but also identifying with something that was (and still is) seen as alien to Russian traditions and culture
Catholics copped it harder than the Russian Orthodoxy.

Nope.

Hence being religious in any way, as well as political, social or economic in particular ways, were key means to turn up on the domestic soviet radar and hence get removed from the ecosystem. To identify as religious in any way is a surefire way to disturb the status quo of politics that aggressively demands and promotes atheism.

And, nope. Obviously, in the Soviet, people don't openly identify their religion. Did you miss the part about people holding their faiths and practicing it behind closed doors?

Given that he gave very clear orders on not only how but also why to destroy religion and promote atheism, it is very clear which aspects of history you are ignoring to maintain this opinion of yours.

Yet, you're very confused and most likely highly biased in how you interpret the Soviet state and don't seem to have any concept about Communism and Dictators.

 

[Goldtop]

So what do you propose to teach to reduce ignorance?

Critical thinking skills, reasoning and logic based on evidence and facts.

 

[billvon]

So what do you propose to teach to reduce ignorance?

Well, you start with basic logic. You teach the scientific method, and deductive reasoning, and math. Then you go on to simple sciences.

If atheism is bereft of values, views, history, goals, etc etc, I guess then by default, it's not on the syllabus.

And such education would be a serious threat to religions, since they are based on superstition.

 

[sideshowbob]

History disagrees.

Your reference does not support your claim. It talks about a Soviet doctrine, not an atheist doctrine. Atheists who are not under the Soviet government are not subject to that doctrine.

 

[Musika]

Nope.

You should try getting in the habit of sourcing your opinions. Its a good habbit that helps one develop knowledge while also reducing the potential of making unfounded statements.

Nope.

Actually, its "yes".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_Russia

During the 70 years of the Soviet time (1917–1987) many Catholic faithful lost their lives, were persecuted or sent to imprisonment for their faith.[18] Besides being Christian, the Catholics had an additional stigma by belonging to a denomination that, unlike the Orthodox Christians, was (and still is) not considered indigenously Russian. By the end of the 1930s, there were only two functioning Catholic churches in the USSR: the Church of St. Louis in Moscow and the Church of Our Lady of Lourdes in St. Petersburg.[18]

And, nope. Obviously, in the Soviet, people don't openly identify their religion. Did you miss the part about people holding their faiths and practicing it behind closed doors?

Do you understand the living arrangements people had during the soviet era? You should try reading the whole article. It's actually quite fascinating to learn about a mode of living that is quite unimaginable by contemporary western standards.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_apartment

The concept of communal apartments' grew in Russia and the Soviet Union as a response to a housing crisis in urban areas – authorities presented them as the product of the “new collective vision of the future.” Between two and seven familiestypically shared a communal apartment.
...
Tenants in communal apartments are “like family in some respects and like strangers in others.” Neighbors are forced to interact with each other, and they know nearly everything about each other, their schedules and daily routines, profession, habits, relationships and opinions, prohibiting any sense of privacy in the communal apartment.[20]
...

Spying was especially prevalent in the communal apartment, because of the extremely close quarters people lived in. It was not unusual for a neighbor to look or listen into another resident’s room or the common room and to gossip about others.[21]Furthermore, the communal apartment was “a breeding ground of police informants,” [22]people were encouraged to denounce their neighbors, and often did so to ensure safety for themselves or to gain their neighbor’s room for themselves after they had them evicted or imprisoned.[23]
...
Your notion of doing something "behind closed doors" is yet another one that doesn't seem to tally with historical accounts.

Yet, you're very confused and most likely highly biased in how you interpret the Soviet state and don't seem to have any concept about Communism and Dictators.

On the contrary, supporting one's opinions with a relentless bombastic courage, especially when faced with facts to the contrary, is not even remotely part of ...

Critical thinking skills, reasoning and logicbased on evidence and facts.

... and probably more a sign of confusion, bias, etc

 

[Musika]

Your reference does not support your claim. It talks about a Soviet doctrine, not an atheist doctrine. Atheists who are not under the Soviet government are not subject to that doctrine.

What earth do you think they mean when they talk about the political program of the Soviets being geared to "replace religion with atheism"?

 

[Musika]

Well, you start with basic logic. You teach the scientific method, and deductive reasoning, and math. Then you go on to simple sciences.

And not history and philosophy?

And such education would be a serious threat to religions, since they are based on superstition.

That's a popular conception amongst atheists ... particularly those lacking in history and philosophy.

 

[sideshowbob]

What earth do you think they mean when they talk about the political program of the Soviets being geared to "replace religion with atheism"?

What on earth do you think that has to do with atheists in the USA? Or the UK? Or anywhere outside the USSR?

 

[Jeeves]

.....During the 70 years of the Soviet time (1917–1987) many Catholic faithful lost their lives, were persecuted or sent to imprisonment for their faith.[18] Besides being Christian, the Catholics had an additional stigma by belonging to a denomination that, unlike the Orthodox Christians, was (and still is) not considered indigenously Russian. By the end of the 1930s, there were only two functioning Catholic churches in the USSR: the Church of St. Louis in Moscow and the Church of Our Lady of Lourdes in St. Petersburg.[18]

That sounds nationalistic, rather than atheistic.
However, religious persecution wasn't very new news in the 20th century, and certainly isn't restricted to secular government.
["When Judea fell under the authority of the Seleucid Empire, the process of Hellenization was enforced by law.[1] This effectively meant requiring pagan religious practice.[2] In 167 BCE Jewish sacrifice was forbidden, sabbaths and feasts were banned and circumcision was outlawed."]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews
["The Christian persecution of Roman religion under Theodosius I began in 381, after the first couple of years of his reign in the Eastern Roman Empire. In the 380s, Theodosius I reiterated Constantine's ban on former customs of Roman religion, prohibited haruspicy on pain of death, pioneered the criminalization of magistrates who did not enforce laws against polytheism, broke up some pagan associations and tolerated attacks on Roman temples."]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius_I#Proscription_of_Hellenistic_religion
["Anti-protestantism dates back to before the Protestant Reformation itself, as various pre-Protestant groups such as Arnoldists, Waldensians, Hussites and Lollards were persecuted in Roman Catholic Europe."] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Protestantism
["Institutional Anti-Catholicism in the United Kingdom has its origins in the English and Irish Reformations under King Henry VIII and the Scottish Reformation led by John Knox. Within England the Act of Supremacy 1534 declared the English crown to be "the only supreme head on earth of the Church in England" in place of the pope."] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United_Kingdom
["This article gives a historical overview of Christian positions on Persecution of Christians, persecutions by Christians, religious persecution and toleration. Christian theologians like Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas legitimized religious persecution to various extents, and during the Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, Christians considered heresy and dissent to be punishable offences."] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christian_thought_on_persecution_and_tolerance
and it hasn't stopped with religion vs rival religion
["Atheists and other religious skeptics suffer persecution or discrimination in many parts of the world and in at least seven nations can be executed if their beliefs become known, according to a report issued on Monday."]
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-discrimination-report-idUSBRE8B900520121210

people were encouraged to denounce their neighbors, and often did so to ensure safety for themselves or to gain their neighbor’s room for themselves after they had them evicted or imprisoned.

Not unlike US Homeland Security post 9/11
Or Medici Italy. Or Nazi Germany. Or Inquisition Spain. Or...
And again, hardly relevant to freedom from religion.

 

[billvon]

And not history and philosophy?

Eventually, yes. And biology, and engineering, and basic first aid etc etc.

That's a popular conception amongst atheists ... particularly those lacking in history and philosophy.

And a popular concept (not "conception") among theists as well. Google the "wedge document."

 

[Goldtop]

Do you understand the living arrangements people had during the soviet era? You should try reading the whole article. It's actually quite fascinating to learn about a mode of living that is quite unimaginable by contemporary western standards.

I would hope to understand the living arrangements in the Soviet Union, I lived there for a year on a student exchange program to study music.

 

[Musika]

What on earth do you think that has to do with atheists in the USA? Or the UK? Or anywhere outside the USSR?

Well obviously a national incentive of a government is only pertinent to its national borders. If the russian government decides to tax the collection of mushrooms, obviously its range of implementation is determined geographically to the extent of its borders, as the mushroom collectors beyond breathe a sigh of relief ... although, as a point of interest, one could talk of how this type of communism with an agenda to actively dismantle religion was exported as a political artifact to other countries.

 

[Musika]

I would hope to understand the living arrangements in the Soviet Union, I lived there for a year on a student exchange program to study music.

Obviously not during the heyday of the soviet era.

 

[sideshowbob]

Well obviously a national incentive of a government is only pertinent to its national borders. If the russian government decides to tax the collection of mushrooms, obviously its range of implementation is determined geographically to the extent of its borders, as the mushroom collectors beyond breathe a sigh of relief ... although, as a point of interest, one could talk of how this type of communism with an agenda to actively dismantle religion was exported as a political artifact to other countries.

So it's not an atheist doctrine. It's a Soviet Russian doctrine. You might even be able to stretch it to a communist doctrine. But it is not an atheist doctrine.

So, after much pulling of teeth, do you finally understand that there's no such thing as an atheist doctrine? Do you understand that various people in various places at various times can embrace various doctrines and yet those doctrines are not atheist doctrines even if some of the adherents happen to be atheists?

 

[Goldtop]

Obviously not during the heyday of the soviet era.

Why don't you then tell me all about the "Heydays" of the Soviet Union? You were there, right?