"And how do you know this?"
"The bible tells me so."
"And why do you believe the bible?"
"Because it's the word of god!"
Arrrrgggghhhhh!
*spirals down into an infinite vortex of circular logic*
Shifting the attention once again...
- Thread starter Thoreau
- Start date
"The bible tells me so."
"And why do you believe the bible?"
"Because it's the word of god!"
Arrrrgggghhhhh!
*spirals down into an infinite vortex of circular logic*
Wrong. A fallible person can be lead by an infallible God even while that person is still very fallible; moses, david and jonah are prime examples in the scriptures.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
It is no denigration. I am not lowering myself from a higher position. I am simply adnowledging my existing position. I am a human being and like all others i am a hopeless sinner. I have accepted the fact, I would like to be a better person of course, it is sometimes very frustrating being a human being being able to think great thoughts and at the same time thinking garbage thoughts. But as i said. I accept what i am and am at peace with it. I know God loves me and that i am forgiven for my limitations.
Well as a follower of the Messiah Jesus God will not be judging me, I am forgiven. I know i am a sinner because His Word reveals Both what sin is and also the remedy. Taken as a whole the Word of God gives both conviction and peace o mind. But unfortunately many people seem not to reach that peace of mind because they reject conviction at the first step or they end up disbelieving in Gods forgiveness.
Self doubt is a good thing when you have enough wisdom to know you are not perfect. We should doubt anything that is not perfect. When one doubts themselves ego and pride are weakened and the door is open for one to be used by another, Unfortunately most people like that end up following guys like Hitler, starlin, mao, bin larden or the pope. I follow God who is not just another man but who is a perfect leader.
You like so many human beings just cannot get a grip on the concept of perfection. All you seem to be able to do is see things from a point of relative goodness or badness from your own human perspective. What is good to you is mealy the lesser of two evil positions.
And the message of the scripture is God condemns people more for their attitude towards sin rather than for sin itself. The scriptures reveal that God is willing to give forgiveness to all who come to Him with contrition. As Jesus said when he gazed over Jerusalem "“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" God is willing and able to forgive but people must also be willing to be forgiven.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I am not trying to remove the speck from their eye. I am trying to tell them that we all have a problem because we all have a speck in our eyes. I am also revealing to them to One who can and is willing to remove the speck from their eye.
All Praise The Ancient of Days
But what of the beam in thine own eye?
A fallible person cannot know that which is perfect.
Even if led by a perfect God, as long as the person is fallible, they can not know perfection.
A fallible person can not recognize perfection.
As such they cannot be God's trustworthy messengers.
Yes.
Adstar - what makes you so sure that the beam in your own eye is not blinding you when it comes to knowing God?
depends on what you mean by fallible
the living entity, either in its liberated or conditioned state, is always dependent (dependent on either god, or a separated energy of god, ie this material world with the false view of being independent)
All that is required to be "infallible" (and hence a capable spiritual leader) is to be properly dependent on god
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... and to be "properly dependent on God" requires that one be "properly dependent on God", right ...?
I am not sure what you are trying to get to ...
That there are no further qualifying descriptions of what it means to be properly dependent on god?
That these requirements are most likely circular.
what makes you say that?
Maybe you could provide an example of what you understand to be a qualifying description and explain why you think it is circular
For example:
In order to know God, the person has to have the right intention.
In order to have that right intention, the person has to know God.
Theists don't formulate it this briefly - but a lenghty discussion starting with the question In order to know God, what is necessary? and the initial answer The right intention, will reveal the circularity I'm mentioning above.
well, it could be unpacked a bit
for instance there are scriptural indications of what qualifies as wrong intention - in the vedas they are commonly refered to as jnana (mental speculation) and karma (fruitive activity)
for instance pursuing knowledge of god with the expectation of an elevated material situation (money, wealth, position, etc) would be an eg of having an intention mixed with karmic desires (and is therefore a bit off the mark of pure , unalloyed intention)
If you truly believe what your saying here greenberg then you have locked yourself in to a disbelieving dungeon. You can never believe in anything of God because you cannot trust in anything you hear or experience in relation to God.
So to the Question one must ask you and you must ask yourself:
Why are you looking for God when you have come to the conclusion that you (an imperfect being) can never know the Will of God?
Is not your whole seeking a complete waste of time if you truly believe in what you have said in the above Quote?
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I am just being unconditionally honest and not taking things for granted.
But apparently unconditional honesty is what makes it impossible for a person to believe in God.
Has it ever occured to you that the beam in thine own eye could be blinding you to the truth about God?
And if you are right about God, he will send me to hell for what I'm doing.