Sexual promiscuity

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Excuse me - when did I invent my conscience, and howcome everybody makes the same invention so spontaneously? How does a conscience prevent me from being threatened?

Well, if everyone has one and it is functional, then it would perfectly insulate you from harm from other humans most likely.

Originally posted by Jenyar

I suppose all the mass murderers and sociopaths and other strong people like you without a conscience, has forced me to develop a sense of right and wrong.

I don't think so.. conscience in all honesty, probably comes part nature part nurture. Partially it's a resultant of empathy. For instance, from the time I was a little kid I could look into the eyes of an animal or person and FEEL something coming back.. it makes my bones tingle kind of. I become that person to an extent, I relate to their plight and with them no harm for why would I harm me?

It's complicated, from a simple premise as nature seems to be so incredibly apt to do. Some people completely lack the perception for empathy (sociopaths). Maybe they had it, but they turned it off or it was lost or damaged or something terrible. Some people don't have it because they did not develop properly and either they physically lack the perception or ability to process the information in such a manner that leads to empathy or conscience.

Originally posted by Jenyar

I'm interested - was it in order to defend my poverty and inferiority that I chose to burden myself with guilt?

No, it was because you can relate to the harm you might cause another I'd think. Would you want to be treated callously? Then why do so? Golden rule knocking your socks right off.

Originally posted by Jenyar

The conscience identifies guilt, and regulates your internal locus of control. Do you truly think there is no such thing as 'wrong'?

There is a such thing, and likely even in purely abstract terms, but I believe what you're attempting to apply the subjective to the objective case. Right and wrong are first applicable subjectively. While a person may be "right" subjectively.. that may or may not have a bearing on what their family thinks is such... it may not have a bearing on what society think is such.. it may not have a bearing on what is abstractly right or wrong.

Originally posted by Jenyar

Justice is one of the properties that differentiates humans from animals - because we have come to know the difference between good and evil.

Good and evil are constructs and ways to put "right and wrong" into a package that can be advertised better, such that control can be exerted over those who would be controlled.

Originally posted by Jenyar

If nature is right, howcome we are born wrong and have to 'make up' with nature?

That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[jds999]

wesmorris-- You seem to be able to argue
an issue passionately from ANY side.

You seem to want to convince Jenyar and myself that concepts like 'conscience'
and 'right and wrong' are completely subjective and even false constructs,
and yet you sound certain of your own ethical/moral objectivity in your stern reply to Juliette...

;-)

 

[wesmorris]

in the case of juliette, I only say what I say to help her realize she's fucking herself with her own attitude. I say it out of experience, it's a personal thing with me and if you noticed.. as with almost all my posts.. I built in a disclaimer, for I realize as few seem to on this site, that anything I can possibly bring to the table is merely opinion... just my input. I think my input is generally valuable, though I realize some maybe differ from that opinion.

i'm actually interested in seeing if there is any spin off of my reasoning or if there is room to advance in our mutual understanding of the topic at hand, but if you'd like to piss around I suppose that's okay. really though, I'd like you to consider what I have to say and tell me where my reasoning is soft, and where it's good from your perspective, and then I'll reciprocate.

 

[jds999]

wesmorris-- Where your reasoning is best, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, is when you concede that things like conscience
and empathy and the golden rule, finally go beyond explanation... (it's that something in another's eyes that makes your bones kind of tingle, as you put it). We can try to deny it, or deconstruct it all day, but underneath
all our endless words, it matters because we're human.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by jds999
wesmorris-- Where your reasoning is best, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, is when you concede that things like conscience
and empathy and the golden rule, finally go beyond explanation...

That's not what I said. I definately DO NOT concede that these things are beyond explanation (though as of now, they are not fully understood, i'm sure that they will be and I think I have some good input)... I think there are pretty of theories by which to explain such things... For instance as I said before... but maybe wasn't clear enough...

Concience: a result of empathy and possibly an evolutionary tool for survival of the species.

Empathy: the ability to relate to the other humans in such a manner that you put yourself in their place.. I believe some people (like myself) have a particular set of perceptive abilities that allow them to be more empathetic. for instance, you are conditioned to comprehend emotional expression in the early months of life (I've got two daughters, I've noticed this - you're also doing this for the rest of your life). This is the foundation for your emotional interpretation skillz for the rest of your life. If something goes right during this process, such as your particular brain develops in areas that are good for percieving emotions, then you get better at it faster, thereby becoming more perceptive of the emotions of the people around you, thusly making you more empathetic. Again, this is theory, but I'll be there's more truth in there than the attitude "beyond explanation". That attitude is for (IMHO) wussies. Mind you, I'm not saying you're a wussie unless of course, you can't see the value in pursuing analysis of said type issues..

Golden Rule: the golden rule is actually in my opinion a statement of basic economic sanity. (if you don't know any thing about economics, you should learn some stuff, then pontificate how it is directly applicable to human interaction as well as the method of distribution of "scarce" resources). Basically, if I screw you over I'm increasing my chances of being screwed. I can summarize this as the karmic effect I suppose, but it's really really really subtle (moreso than karma) and I don't know if I can explain it properly. It's basically that life is a jedi-mind trick in a sense. basically, and this may be a horrid summarization, but life is attitude, if yours sucks it will bring suck down upon you in droves. it's subtle because of this.. you have total control of how you percieve things.. at least in taking a new direction on how you percieve things.. further.. your attitude directly effects the flavor in which you percieve things.. for instance "that sucked" and all the associated nuances are how you are probably percieving this right now... but if you thought instead "hmmm... maybe there's something in there" the entire way you deal with the situation, how it effects you subjectively and how it reflects upon you from other people will be directly related to how you percieve the event. It's a strangely simplistic and integrated yet amazingly complex interation... as life tends to be.

Another point that is far more important FROM MY PERSPECTIVE... if you think "that is unknowable" guess what? Are you following? That exactly demostrates my prior point. If you determine that something that seems incomprehensible to you is as such and cannot be different, then you have just relagated yourself to ignorance and will NEVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER know anything about it. Not until you allow yourself to.. see? Again, just my opinion. For sure that's how it works for me.. and really most of the people I consider quite wise have all had similar revalations.... but then again.. what do I know? Do you recognize this wisdom or see it as false?

Originally posted by jds999

(it's that something in another's eyes that makes your bones kind of tingle, as you put it).

Yes, for I am lucky enough to be perceptive of such things.. seems that if you understand what I mean, you likely are too. Nice to know you. You would understand me more if you could see me and feel what I'm saying instead of this dry format.. but what can be said? *sigh*

Originally posted by jds999

We can try to deny it, or deconstruct it all day, but underneath
all our endless words, it matters because we're human.

Yes, it matters.. but this seems to conflict with your statement that it can't be known.. if it matters, wouldn't you seek the knowledge.. the understanding? Instead you write it off as unknowable??? Maybe I misunderstand you.

 

[jds999]

peace, wesmorris: we seem to be talking in circles. In my experience, cerebral
reasoning and that type of knowledge can only take us so far, and then it's finally simply about choices of the heart and soul.

Choose love and empathy because it rings true, not because of evolutionary species programming...