Common: Questions about menstruation, pregnancy, sexual behavior. “Experimenting” with same-age children, including kissing, fondling, exhibitionism, and role-playing. Masturbation at home or in private places.
Uncommon: Use of sexual words and discussing sexual acts.
http://www.sltwc.org/casigns.html
These are some of the signs of healthy sexuality in children of this girl's age range. What she exhibited (from ancient's claims) are well beyond the scope of what one would consider normal or healthy.
I definitely don't think that blackmailing is healthy. And in this society, it's generally very dangerous for an 11 year old to be sexual with anyone. Judith Levine chronicles this fact in her book "Harmful to Minors". Here's a good passage near the beginning of her chapter "Therapy- "Children who Molest" and the Tyranny of the Normal" [Judith changed the names of the children to protect their identities]:
In November 1993, the San Diego County Child Protective Services pronounced Tony Diamond a grave danger to his sister. Jessica told someone at school that her brother had "touched her front and back." Mandated by the 1974 Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act to report any suspicion of child abuse, even by a child, the school called the Child Abuse Hotline. The social worker who did the family's intake interview elicited a record of Tony's earlier offenses: In elementary school, he used sexual language and looked under girls' skirts. At four, he lay on top of Jessie in the bath.
With only Jessica's testimony to go on, the juvenile court charged Tony with "sexual abuse" of "the minor" Jessica, "including, but not limited to touching her vagina and anal areas... placing a pencil in her buttocks" (that is, he poked the flesh of her buttocks with a pencil), and threatening to hurt her if she "disclosed the molest." Jessica's story would change over the weeks and months and none of what transpired between them is clear.
Nevertheless, the interviewer made this confident assessment: "It would appear from a review of the case that Tony is a budding sex offender.". Tony was nine years old.
Tony was to become one case in a new "epidemic", the "sexualization" of children; a new class of patient, "children with sexual behavior problems"; and a new category of sexual criminal perpetrator, "children who molest". Although some youngsters, particularly teen boys, do commit real sexual intrusions, even rape of other kids, "children who molest" are of another order. As young as two, they are diagnosed and treated, and sometimes prosecuted, for "innapropriate" behaviours like fondling, putting things inside genitals or even flashing, mooning, or masturbating "compulsively". From the anecdotes I have gathered since reporting on Tony, it appears that sex play between siblings is considered the gravest, though ironically the commonest species of a grave and not uncommon problem.
Children who molest are accused of coercion, though often the "victim" complies willingly, enjoys, or does not notice the "abuse". And while some such kids are aggressive in other ways, such as fighting, stealing or setting fires, their doctors practice under the assumption that any sexual acting-out is of a wholly different, and worse, order of behaviour. So, with little supportive evidence, a new group of self-styled experts has persuaded the child-protecitve systems that "sex-offense-specific" therapy is necessary for any minor with a "sexual behaviour problem."
Although the events that befell Tony and his family may seem extreme, they are not unique...
Bells said:
What it does indicate that she may have very well been a troubled child and her behaviour reeks of possible abuse by others.
I don't know about that. It may just be that she wanted to try something out that she knew to be forbidden. I definitely think that her blackmailing ancientregime's friend speaks of -something- wrong with her, but I don't think that something wrong had to have much of a sexual component to it; kids blackmail and coerce others for many reasons, not just for sexual favours.
Bells said:
But lets look past that and look at the behaviour of the friend when confronted with a child who asks him to have sex with her. As an adult male, would you have had sex with her at her request? Or would you have ensured that her parents were informed immediately?
I would indeed go for option b. But at the same time, I think I can understand ancientregime's friend's reasoning.
Bells said:
Ancient is trying to portray this as normal behaviour.. that an adult male confronted with a promiscuous pre-pubescent child will be aroused and will act on that arousal if he wants to and that it is normal to find pre-pubescent children sexually attractive and appealing. Do you agree?
Ah, the many definitions of normal.
Here's one from
thefreedictionary.com:
: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations.
Note the rather circular reference ("constituting a norm" indeed
). Honestly, I don't think that we should focus on what's normal; the norm right now is that we're destroying our planet, but I don't think that's very healthy for us. No, I think we should focus on what's good and healthy. Ofcourse, what's good and healthy frequently depends to some extent on the environment one's in.
So, is it good, healthy or atleast ok if one is sexually attracted to pre pubescent children? If it doesn't go beyond sexual attraction, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Perhaps it would be best to take a look at sexuality itself and the way we deal with it. Some say it's good, some say it's bad, but as a general rule, we want to keep the topic away from 'children'. Why is that? I personally think that it has to do with puritanical values and the idea that the whole subject is sinful. I also think that part of it is that our society tends to think that children shouldn't be very sexual; whereas before it was that children should be seen but not heard, it's now a bit more liberal; children can be seen and heard, but we still want them to be fairly asexual. Personally, I think it comes down to how you feel about sex; if you feel ambiguous about it, you may want to 'delay' your children from knowing about it. And I can understand the reasoning behind this; basically, the idea that what a child doesn't know can't hurt them. The main problem with this line of reasoning is that biologically speaking, especially when they hit their teens, children are very much meant to know about sexuality. And frankly, ever since I can remember, I remember absolutely loving the idea of being with girls in what could definitely be construed as a sexual way and the sky was the limit with what I wanted to do with them (because of a lack of knowledge, ofcourse, my sky was rather limited; I absolutely loved the idea of kissing and being naked with them but I believe I didn't really understand much about sex other then that penis and vagina had to come into contact until I hit the double digits). Due to societal constraints, after the mutual baths with my sister of 2 years younger then me ended at the age of 6, however, my contact with females was decidedly more limited. Would I have liked it if an older female had shown me all about sexuality in a society that didn't frown on such things? I would have -loved- it. But it didn't happen.
So, going back to the original question and modifying it- would it be -beneficial- for some adults to be sexually attracted to pre pubescent children? Definitely for some children, if only society could only accept such things.
Bells said:
Is a child a sexual object in the eyes of an adult?
Ever since I was a boy, I never saw people as objects and I certainly haven't changed now. I know that -some- people, especially men, tend to objectify females, but that's never been my cup of tea.
Bells said:
Now with the friend, it would seem that the answer where it involves this particular child is yes.
I believe that ancientregime has implied the reverse; that if anyone was used, it was ancientregime's friend.
Bells said:
As ancient has disclosed, his friend was not concerned with the law or going to jail.
What??? Where did he do that?
Bells said:
He did it because he wanted to do it.
I think you've got things a bit confused. From what I understood, his friend was attracted to underage girls, but he was fully aware of what could happen if he actually acted on those desires and the only reason he did so was because he was afraid that the girl was going to put him in jail pronto if he didn't; you could say that he got into one risk that may have seemed more distant or perhaps even avoidable in order to get out of another sooner danger.
Bells said:
His anger lies with the girl who apparently lied when she disclosed she had sex with him, because according to ancient, oral sex isn't really sex and it cannot be a crime if no harm is caused to the supposed victim. Now, is sex abuse, even if no harm comes of it, a crime?
I think the better question is, what constitutes sex abuse.
Bells said:
We live in a culture where the desire to protect our children is at times, zealous. You bring up an important point. What of cultures where sexual maturity is much younger and sex with minors is not considered taboo. In such societies, the families and the parents of the children are well aware and will consent to the relationship. A person acting outside of those boundaries would suffer the consequences. But we do not live in such a society today.
Agreed; the argument of some, however, is that there were some aspects of old societies that we should adopt.
Bells said:
In some societies, it was normal to sacrifice virgins at an altar to a favoured God. Does not mean that if someone takes a virgin and slits her throat her the name of a particular God that we would not arrest or jail them for murder because it was common practice in the past.
Agreed there as well; however, I think that there are few people who think that -that- practice should be reinstated
.