segregation, where's the line?
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Bells
Staff member
They are not always, but mostly. Because people are exposing their genitalia.
again not always and it is much more common these days to have mixed. At least I think so. I was in mixed and that was a long time ago and it was no special thing.
My guess is there is a point you want to make that isn't in the thread yet. Guessing a little more wildly perhaps you are responding to certain kinds of gender segregation that often get criticized in the West and are here saying, essentially, well, since everyone does it, how do we know where to draw the line?
There seem to be a trend towards less and less segregation, but bathroom will be very late to change. Given the way men have acted, in some %, towards women, public bathrooms, where women take down their pants or underwear to pee and poop, will likely not feel safe or be safe.
They aren't very common. I've only ever seen one, and that was in an old nursing hostel.
Doreen said:
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
To segregate merely means to separate. All types of segregation of humans are not categorically similar and therefore cannot be judged by the same criteria.
Racial segregation, which is the default sense of the word in the USA, has important, standard characteristics that are not implied in the word "segregation" by itself.
Segregation, without a modifier, cannot be judged as a single practice.
The "line" to which the thread title refers is linguistic, not moral, legal or social.
Racial segregation, which is the default sense of the word in the USA, has important, standard characteristics that are not implied in the word "segregation" by itself.
- It is practiced in most of the venues of life. Segregated populations live in distinct communities, they attend separate schools, they are offered different sets of opportunities, etc. When commingling is unavoidable separateness is still enforced to the extent practical, such as separate restrooms, or separate sections in a movie theater or on public transport.
- It is involuntary for at least one of the populations. In the Jim Crow era in the USA Afro-Americans were generally dissatisfied with segregation and it had to be enforced by law.
- It is only practiced in specific venues of life. It is the norm for males and females to commingle; segregation is the exception.
- The reasons for the segregation are widely accepted as sensible rather than discriminatory. Our culture values modesty and modesty is widely accepted as including the wish not to have ones private parts or any of one's toilet activities viewed by members of the opposite sex except (and not always) family.
- The segregation is largely voluntary and requires very little enforcement. Men and women do not attempt to walk into each other's restrooms or dressing rooms, and even among today's more liberal mixed-gender housemates there is typically respect for at least a key subset of the modesty rituals, such as privacy in the shower and during elimination.
Segregation, without a modifier, cannot be judged as a single practice.
The "line" to which the thread title refers is linguistic, not moral, legal or social.
segregation, where's the line?
Between the black side and the white side.
Between the black side and the white side.
why are men's and women bathrooms separated?
Because mens bathrooms reek of foul oders and are unkempt!
why are male and female students' dormitories separated?
So the women can come up with ways to fool the men.
Because mens bathrooms reek of foul oders and are unkempt!
why are male and female students' dormitories separated?
So the women can come up with ways to fool the men.
really? never knew such thing existed
and mordea says they aren't common, why not?why are some of them separated then?
you know, all the walls?????:m:
bathrooms and dormitories.
omg lol..
A. what's wrong with exposing your genitalia? the animal kingdom has no problem in showing their genitalias, it's just natural.
B.even bathrooms with cubicals are separated. having your genitalia seen can't be the real problem.
that's also new to me.
but those which are not mixed, is there a good reason if at all for the separation?
lol, i don't create threads to make points, i make threads to validate them[..guess it's essentially the same..]
stating my point from the beginning will set the coordination axis for everyone to line up on their side, i don't want that, even though bells is already going in all directions opposite to the ones she perceives me going in...
but your humble "wild" guesses are around the mark, can't say for sure as i don't really know myself, it just dawned up on me so i asked it
the change towards less segregation, why?
why were sexes segregated to begin with? and why are they moving away from it now?
besides, doesn't the scene that happens in the bathroom, which you say is the reason bathrooms will not cease to be segregated any time soon, isn't it but a sample of a bigger phenomenon, of attraction between the sexes(though i find the bathroom a strange place for that), which is present in society in other places? or is it because those other places are less "intense"?
and when will bathrooms cease being segregated? when what happens or how much time passes?
thanks for the clarification fraggle, it's really pleasing to see neat and well-organized well thought-out, fully punctuated and flourishly vocabularized posts like yours and tiassa, makes you feel you're talking to a duke
so where's the line?
definitely, but sense changes from place to place, we can't go with such subjective term..
that is your culture, other cultures have other wishes that are widely accepted.
true, but you raise an even better point, segregation is mainly volentary, why so?
how come?
which segregation exactly?
nope, the linguistic lines you've drawn, and i've chosen which, we're talking sexual segreagation.
that segregation however, is not properly bordered for me, you've shed some light about functions and concepts which usually draw the line, but where do the draw it? i still don't see.
i mean sexual segregation mister.
they never come up with new ways, their ways are as old as history.why are male and female students' dormitories separated?
So the women can come up with ways to fool the men.
..
and we keep falling for them
No one is complaining about male/ female segregation. That's the line.
I think it's because too many men can't control themselves.
In my country, and in my experience, they aren't. Also, interesting, the bathrooms tend to be unisex in dormitories. Why? Because the people who live there all know each other, and the bathrooms don't tend to be used by lots of people at the same time.
good point, gues it's simple yet reflects reality.
they can't control themselves only in bathrooms and dorms?
hmm..
so have you ever seen a need for separated dorms, since you've been in ones that are not? did you see any positive or negative things compared to separated ones?
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Of course it does. Segregation, whether by race, sex, age, class, or any other characterstic, is strictly a cultural variable. It is not an archetype, a motif that occurs in nearly all cultures and nearly all eras and is therefore an instinct passed down in our DNA. Each culture develops its own standards for segregation, or lack thereof, from its own history, experience, and peculiarities. If you're looking for some universal human motivation for segregation, I don't think you're going to find it.
Indeed. That's pretty much what I just said. I think that this particular variety of modesty is nearly universal in the industrial nations, but not in all others.
On another thread someone asked when clothing was invented, and the answer is 70,000BCE, before we migrated out of Africa. We know this because that's when body lice speciated. So modesty has had many millennia to develop.
The only type of segregation that we apply the word to in the USA is racial segregation, and it was not voluntary for the Afro-Americans. It was a way for the Euro-Americans to deny important rights and opportunities to them. In countries that have class segregation, like India or even England, it is used in the same way, to keep the people in the "lower" classes from rising into a class which would afford them more rights and opportunities.
The primary and most widely practiced form of voluntary segregation is by sex. The reason it's voluntary is that both men and women have a sense of modesty. Obviously women's sense of modesty is greater but we men do have one. Most organized sports (not friendly games) are segregated by sex, and again this is voluntary. In this case the reason is practical: In most (but not all) sports, the larger average size and greater average strength of men gives them an advantage which would relegate women to losing most matches. This would make the games less fun, less interesting, and less popular among paying spectators.
The reasons for each form of segregation are specific to it. There is no general explanation for all forms.
I find that hard to believe. Segregation by sex is generally enforced by social custom, not by the police. If you violate the rule someone will quickly tell you. They won't make you wait until the police come, by which time you'll have no idea what you did wrong. So unless you've had a lot of complaints, you must understand the rules of sexual segregation intuitively. Perhaps they're not the same in your country as in mine, but I'm sure everyone--including you--knows what they are.
Don't try to walk into the ladies' bathroom or dressing room, and don't try to bring a lady into ours. Don't show a lady your private parts and don't try to sneak a look at hers. Close the door when you're going potty or taking a shower, and don't open the door when a lady is doing it. Don't change clothes in public and don't go into places where ladies are changing clothes. Don't touch a lady without an invitation except in very specific accepted social ways, such as shaking hands, touching her lightly on the shoulder to express sympathy, or lightly slapping her on the back as congratulations for winning a game. In many places in America hugging is okay between friends and colleagues as a gesture of congratulations, sympathy or solidarity, but if you're not confident in your judgment let somebody else do it first. I find Afro-Americans more appreciative of it than many Euro-Americans.
Sure, these rules are sometimes broken. There are clubs where naked ladies dance for your pleasure and your money. There are nude beaches, nude pool and hot-tub parties, and nudist clubs. Some women, especially young ones, get a kick out of flashing their boobs or even their butts--usually when drunk. There are some situations in which guys flash their butts--usually when drunk.
I don't think you'll have any trouble recognizing these situations so you're never going to get into trouble by making a wrong assumption. Just look around and don't do something that a lot of other people aren't also doing.
I'm much older than most of you kids and when I was in college co-ed dorms were unheard of. We would not have minded. The reason was that the adults who ran the universities didn't want us having sex.
It didn't work.
My entire university was male-only, and looking back I think it was a bad idea. We were very uncivilized; we lived like little boys. Some guys didn't take showers often enough and wore dirty clothes. Some of them did things that are too disgusting to even describe.
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How many is 'too many'?
Bells
Staff member
really? never knew such thing existed
Most bars and clubs I have gone to in the last 15 or so years had unisex bathrooms. Maybe Mordea doesn't get out often enough.
For privacy, for example. A woman should feel comfortable adjusting her boobs in her bra in front of the mirror without being stared at by men she does not know, just as men should be free to adjust themselves without being watched by women they don't know.
And some are not. Really, what is the point of your thread, exactly?
*Sigh*
I meant what barriers do you see? Why do you refer to it as "segregation"?
Again, *sigh*..
I meant where are dormitories all "segregated"?
Most Western countries that I know of have mixed dorms for the most part and a few women and men's only dorms. But in Australia, for example, mixed dorms are more common than male or female only dorms are in universities. And as James has pointed out, most of the bathrooms in dormitories in Australia tend to be mixed anyway. They do offer men and women only bathrooms as well if one does not want to share with the opposite sex when they shower in their cubicles or when they need to go to the toilet, etc.
I am still trying to determine the real reason behind your thread.
This is a good idea for many reasons. Let me share just one good one. I work at an smaller office building. We have 3 restrooms. When I first came here, they were all unisex. But, the women complained that the men didn't keep the seat down, didn't wipe the seat if they sprinkled, or didn't wipe the floor if they dribbled.
In addition to this, some women don't lock the door. So, an unsuspecting male got an eye full one time, and that was the last of the unisex bathrooms.
This is a good idea for many reasons. I won't share any, but i'll just say the basics: privacy. A person is free to roam the halls of their building wearing anything and looking however, without any fear of being seen by the opposite sex in a light that would not be complimentary. Another is a school is a place to learn and works best by minimizing distractions. The opposite sex is distracting to most people.scifes said:
The answer is necessity. The reason can be a host of reasons, or might be only one.
Perpahs the barrier is a figment of your imagination? As is this conversation to me.
When are they not complaining?
scifes:
Women with panties down gets some men excited. Also, the problem is not bathrooms per se, because private bathrooms everywhere are invariably unisex. The problem is sharing your bathroom with strangers of the opposite sex, especially when you're on your own.
I've seen many positive and negative things in dorms. The fact is, though, that society in general is not sexually segregated. Men have to learn to interact with women and vice versa. In dorms, everybody has some private space, and there are also shared public spaces.
mordea:
Well, I think one rapist, for example, is too many. How about you?
Women with panties down gets some men excited. Also, the problem is not bathrooms per se, because private bathrooms everywhere are invariably unisex. The problem is sharing your bathroom with strangers of the opposite sex, especially when you're on your own.
I've seen many positive and negative things in dorms. The fact is, though, that society in general is not sexually segregated. Men have to learn to interact with women and vice versa. In dorms, everybody has some private space, and there are also shared public spaces.
mordea:
mordea said:
Well, I think one rapist, for example, is too many. How about you?