Seal of the prophets?

Dear Randolfo,

Would you trouble yourself with mentioning those hadiths!! :m:

But please, choose them out of the correct ones, not those labelled WEAK, REFUTED, or AHAD...... :)

OH.... very sorry, but you christians aren't acquainted with these terms, you don't use them with your texts, do you!! :D
 
Yazdajerd said:
Dear Randolfo,

Would you trouble yourself with mentioning those hadiths!!
:
What? you want me to do all the work for you? use your browser's search engine, if you really can't find sources in a week, ask again or if you don't answer me, I'll post it for you

But please, choose them out of the correct ones, not those labelled WEAK,
so, what are you saying? muslims would lie about their prophet? they would make up lies about him? stories? I'm shocked, absolutly shocked!!!
false prophet, false book, sorry old friend, all lies, here's a simple test for your quran, if it is from God, why is it out of order? why did men put it in largest sura to smallest sura order? why does it have Meccan & Medinan suras jumbled out of order? did allah not know what order he wanted to tell men his truth, by doing chronologically ordered suras? is allah absent-minded? has he got too many things on his mind, to bother with a short & sweet refutation of the Bible?
so pre-ocuppied, that he obviously forgets truth, history, physics & the name that God said would be His Memorial Name forever? "YHWH",
Exodus 3:14
And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."' 15 Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: "The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.'

NKJV
from:
http://reluctant-messenger.com/Gods-sacred-name.htm
or AHAD......
'An hadith a day', I used my search engine for that, come on, you can too!

OH.... very sorry, but you christians aren't acquainted with these terms, you don't use them with your texts, do you!!
why should we?, we got the quran for that job; yes, weak, refuted, & AHAD (admittedly hilarious and distorted)
:D
:p
;)
 
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I will not trouble my search engine, since you are the one who made the accusations, you are the on responsible to bring oyt proof....

And why are you surprised, aren't there christians who lie about Christ, I know one, your so called St. Paul!!

For your information a lot of people enter a lot of religions and try to deviate them for their own interest, not only in Islam, Jewish, And Christian religions too!!!

AHAD doesn't mean "an hadith a day" it means a hadith with only one sequence of narrators making it weak.

"You've got the Quran" surprised to hear it from you whose religion has no historic proof of most of its books, while ours has only!!
 
I'm surprised by your weak interpetation of your own book,
why does "I am who I am" mean YHWH, I'm really surprised that jews and christians use the term again and again..... it means I'm God and my name is God ( Elloheim ) as the hebrew text would put it!!
 
"the Quran's order" , when did we claim the Quran to be a history book, we didn't..... and for your information every surah has its own subject that has its own subject, it doesn't need to be organised which sura before the other , you can place them in any order you want!!
 
Yazdajerd said:
"the Quran's order" , when did we claim the Quran to be a history book, we didn't..... and for your information every surah has its own subject that has its own subject, it doesn't need to be organised which sura before the other , you can place them in any order you want!!
Huh? then how was it ever perfect? how did it come form heaven?

if it has the fingerprints of man, therefor it is a manmade object, no?
 
Yazdajerd said:
I'm surprised by your weak interpetation of your own book,
why does "I am who I am" mean YHWH, I'm really surprised that jews and christians use the term again and again.....
weak, its like changing God's name, to "Tom", because it means 'the God' in the belief system of the "Thums".

If "Yahweh" is God's name for ever, well then how long is that?
it means I'm God and my name is God ( Elloheim ) as the hebrew text would put it!!
" I'm God and my name is God", where did you get that? that name would "El-Shem-el" somewhere in it
from:
http://www.ahavta.org/name.htm
The Name Yahweh means: I Was - I Am - I Will Be. It answers to major attributes of God: The Eternal One / I Was - I Am - I Will Be; The Omnipresent One / I Was - I Am - I Will Be; The Almighty / I Was - I Am - I Will Be. It is used in scriptures referring to God as the Gracious and Merciful One, whereas Elohim is used when referring to God as the Creator who judges His creation. The two are often used together -- Yahweh Elohim, commonly replaced with Lord God.
 
Yazdajerd said:
I'm surprised by your weak interpetation of your own book,
why does "I am who I am" mean YHWH, I'm really surprised that jews and christians use the term again and again.....!
!
we use it, because it IS God's Name, refered to as 'HaShem' in hebrew (The Name)
 
Yazdajerd said:
"the Quran's order" , when did we claim the Quran to be a history book, we didn't..... and for your information every surah has its own subject that has its own subject, it doesn't need to be organised which sura before the other , you can place them in any order you want!!

you obviously don't know perfect islam, the order was supposedly from allah, sent down from heaven to Mohammad, the present quran is an exact copy of the one enshrined in heaven by allah.

what? am I to teach you islam?
here, check these out & be amazed :D


http://www.quran.org/quran/
City of Light; The Path to the True Islam and (Submission) Islam ...
... help them find the faults they seek. Since the Quran is perfect, such
"faults" serve only to reveal the stupidity of God's enemies. ...
www.quran.org/quran/

http://www.quran-islam.org/160.html
Abrogation
... As is plainly clear from the above Quranic words, God asserts that the words of
the Quran are perfect, harbour no contradictions and cannot be abrogated. ...
www.quran-islam.org/160.html - 26k

http://media.isnet.org/off/XIslam/IslamOnline/Quran.html
Quran
... the original text up with modern language usage. The Quran is Perfect
in Literary Style, Grammatical Text, and Factual Information. ...
media.isnet.org/off/XIslam/IslamOnline/Quran.html - 13k

http://www.pearls.org/TheHolyBook/wholequran.html
In the whole of the Quran there is a perfect fluency
... Although the Quran came to judge of various, diverse cases and events, it displays
such a perfect order that it is as if it were the judgment delivered on a ...
www.pearls.org/TheHolyBook/wholequran.html - 70k


2 bad for muslims, that even if it were 'perfect', its still not true
 
if it has the fingerprints of man, therefor it is a manmade object, no?

fingerprints of man, they just put the suras together, each sura has its own organisation according to the subject!!
And really surprised to hear that from you, who wrote the gospels, who wrote Pauls letters....... please don't tell me Christ!!

you obviously don't know perfect islam, the order was supposedly from allah, sent down from heaven to Mohammad, the present quran is an exact copy of the one enshrined in heaven by allah

You obviously know little, I'm surprised you didn't reach the point where history mentions that Imam Ali placed a different organisation of the Quran's suras......... and nobody is more knowing than him in the Islam except the prophet!!



2 bad for muslims, that even if it were 'perfect', its still not true

I'm still waiting for those hadiths!! :D
 
Yazdajerd said:
Dear Randolfo,

Would you trouble yourself with mentioning those hadiths!! :m:

But please, choose them out of the correct ones, not those labelled WEAK, REFUTED, or AHAD...... :)
how convient, muslims control all the avenues of debate, there is a refutation there, about self-referents.

as to hadiths, here goes
from:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/061.sbt.html

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 511:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr sent for me and said, "You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle : So you should search for (the Qur'an and collect) it." I started searching for the Qur'an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him. (They were):

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty ...' (9.128-129)


Volume 6, Book 61, Number 512:

Narrated Al-Bara:

There was revealed: 'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah.' (4.95)

The Prophet said, "Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the inkpot and the scapula bone (or the scapula bone and the ink pot)."' Then he said, "Write: 'Not equal are those Believers who sit..", and at that time 'Amr bin Um Maktum, the blind man was sitting behind the Prophet . He said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is your order For me (as regards the above Verse) as I am a blind man?" So, instead of the above Verse, the following Verse was revealed:

'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame etc.) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah.' (4.95)

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 513:


Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:

Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel recited the Qur'an to me in one way. Then I requested him (to read it in another way), and continued asking him to recite it in other ways, and he recited it in several ways till he ultimately recited it in seven different ways."

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 514:
Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle),

"I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O 'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)."

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 515:


Narrated Yusuf bin Mahk:

While I was with Aisha, the mother of the Believers, a person from Iraq came and asked, "What type of shroud is the best?" 'Aisha said, "May Allah be merciful to you! What does it matter?" He said, "O mother of the Believers! Show me (the copy of) your Qur'an," She said, "Why?" He said, "In order to compile and arrange the Qur'an according to it, for people recite it with its Suras not in proper order." 'Aisha said, "What does it matter which part of it you read first? (Be informed) that the first thing that was revealed thereof was a Sura from Al-Mufassal, and in it was mentioned Paradise and the Fire. When the people embraced Islam, the Verses regarding legal and illegal things were revealed. If the first thing to be revealed was: 'Do not drink alcoholic drinks.' people would have said, 'We will never leave alcoholic drinks,' and if there had been revealed, 'Do not commit illegal sexual intercourse, 'they would have said, 'We will never give up illegal sexual intercourse.' While I was a young girl of playing age, the following Verse was revealed in Mecca to Muhammad: 'Nay! But the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and more bitter.' (54.46) Sura Al-Baqara (The Cow) and Surat An-Nisa (The Women) were revealed while I was with him." Then 'Aisha took out the copy of the Qur'an for the man and dictated to him the Verses of the Suras (in their proper order) .

I especially like the 7 versions part, so much for perfect memory :D
 
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Yazdajerd said:
I will not trouble my search engine, since you are the one who made the accusations, you are the on responsible to bring oyt proof....
so now that I did, will you at least explore on your own? or does the thought that you may discover something troubling, trouble you?

AHAD doesn't mean "an hadith a day"
the initials do, several sites used that acronym, they did not explain that itwas an arabic word though

AHAD doesn't mean "an hadith a day" it means a hadith with only one sequence of narrators making it weak.
I like that, using real words as acronyms, thanks, my search engine didn't pull up a site on the first page that explained the pun, clever

from:
http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/Gilchrist/Vol1/6a.html
Unfortunately wholesale fabrication of Hadith during the early days made it difficult for genuine scholars to distinguish the true from the false, but eventually six major collections were recognised as authoritative works of Hadith containing, for the most part, true records. The divisions of Hadith took many forms. Where traditions were reported by a large number of companions, they became known as mutawatir, that is, "continuous", meaning that they were successively reported by many authorities.

The Mutawatir are the traditions which have been transmitted throughout the first three generations of the Muslims by such a large number of transmitters as cannot be reasonably expected to agree on a falsehood. (Siddiqi, Hadith Literature, p.193).

Such traditions are "very few in number and hardly ever touch on legal matters" (Juynboll, The Authenticity of the Tradition Literature, p. 11 ). The second coming of Jesus is attested by seventy traditions from different sources and it is a typical non-juristic hadith unanimously recognised. The next form of Hadith are known as mashur.

Mashur. - A tradition which in every age has been considered genuine by some learned Doctor. This is the term generally used for traditions which were at first recorded by a few individuals but afterwards became generally known. (Hughes, Notes on Muhammadanism, p.33).

Lastly, traditions transmitted by only one or two transmitters are known as ahad, that is, "isolated", from the Arabic root for "one". These divisions are broken up into many other detailed sub-divisions but all rely either on the number of authorities for the tradition or on the nature of their origin. The latter, for example, are divided into musnad, traditions traced back to Muhammad himself, mauquf, those only going back to his companions, and maqtu, those derived from his Successors. A tradition from a Successor directly traced to Muhammad is known as mursal. Naturally those going back to Muhammad himself are considered more genuine.

Another form of dividing the Hadith into degrees of reliability is that which analyses defects in the reporters of traditions or in the textual content of the traditions themselves. Each tradition begins with a list of its chain of reporters, known as its isnad, its "support", and concludes with its content, its matn. There are three classes in this case as well.

These three classes are: (i) the Sahih or Genuine; (ii) the Hasan or the Fair; and (iii) the Da'if or the Weak. (Siddiqi, Hadith Literature, p.192).

Once again there are a number of sub-divisions. The sahih and hasan traditions are graded as maqbul (acceptable) while the da'if are treated with reserve. Hadith known to be fabricated are known as mardud (rejected).


"You've got the Quran" surprised to hear it from you whose religion has no historic proof of most of its books, while ours has only!!
only what? the quran has a history, mostly hadiths that say it was put together from several sources, not allah, but Mohammad & his followers
 
Randolfo said:
you obviously don't know perfect islam, the order was supposedly from allah, sent down from heaven to Mohammad, the present quran is an exact copy of the one enshrined in heaven by allah.


lol and you know the perfect Islam.lol :D Accept Islam now and save ur self other wise hell is waiting for you. Christ will not save ur ass. ;)
 
skywalker said:
lol and you know the perfect Islam.lol ;)
why yes I do, its called christianity
I know alot of your legends, tell us, where is the original quran that allah transmitted, located?

Accept Islam now and save ur self other wise hell is waiting for you. Christ will not save ur ass.
thanks for the invitation, but why would I want to go to the hell fire with Mohammad? poor guy was decieved by satan one too many times, you don't think surah 53 was the only one corrupted by him? sorry, the allah is the greatest deciever, it says so in the quran

from:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/3/
3:54 And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
 
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