Seal of the prophets?

[Roman]

Sorry 'bout that typo. I changed as soon as I saw it, which was before I read your reply.

So Islam has what you percieve to be idolatry. Who the fuck cares? Christianity has Christmas trees and Santa Claws. That's really goddamn pagan.

The mother who blew herself up in palestine was a civilian. She didn't have to do it, and I don't think she was getting any virgins.

In "the early days" Islam was dishing out intense persecution from the sands of Arabia and Egypt to the shores of Spain. Islam actually could withstand persecution. They withstood barbaric invasions of cannibalistic Christians.

 

[StarOfEight]

that's the stupidest statement i have heard in a while.

i hope you dont have any faith that when you press "submit" that your reply will go through.

or that the chair you are sitting in will hold you up

or that you will be alive an hour from now

or that your lungs won't collapse on you



it doesnt matter where you believe you are a human being or not, it's not "a logical exercise".

It's all faith, hm?

What the fuck are you even talking about? There's empirical evidence that hitting submit will create a new post. There is no empirical evidence that proves or disproves the existence of God. Hence, it's not something that can be proved rationally or shown through a logical exercise. And since you were apparently too stupid to piece this together ... I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. Faith and logic are two separate spheres of human endeavor.

And Randolfo ... other people may have mentioned this, but ... okay, so the Qu'ran doens't follow Biblical truth, in your estimation. Well, the Bible doesn't follow the truth of the Torah, in the estimation of most Jews.

As for your second post ... within less than a hundred years, the theories Marx expounded in Das Kapital went from being so irrelevant that the Russian czarist censors couldn't even be bothered to bar their entry into Russia to the ideology of the second-most powerful nation in the world. That doesn't prove that Marxian economics are correct.

 

[§outh§tar]

What the fuck are you even talking about? There's empirical evidence that hitting submit will create a new post. There is no empirical evidence that proves or disproves the existence of God. Hence, it's not something that can be proved rationally or shown through a logical exercise. And since you were apparently too stupid to piece this together ... I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. Faith and logic are two separate spheres of human endeavor.
.

Since I am apparently too stupid, is there empirical evidence that "faith and logic are two separate spheres of human endeavor"

All the reports about God were not based on observation is what you are saying then, which is certainly equally "stupid" and rather arrogant of you. So Christ never ascended even though there were numerous witnesses?

 

[567]

They withstood barbaric invasions of cannibalistic Christians.

Damit I knew randolfo is caannibal..........

 

[Yazdajerd]

Dear everneo,
I'm sorry you think of shiites as a bit emotional, we tend to think of ourselves as being the most logical people, since we are nearly ther only sect that attributes everything in religion to logic!!
My conversion came after deep thinking in what controls the other, the text or the brain. after I applied this issue to a number of sects: shiism, sunni, sufi, judaisim, catholicism, protestants and hindu... I found myself siding with the shiite point of view!!

Dear Randolfo,

{not sure that is Biblical, all other prophets had miracles, not birthmarks, can you show where you got that info?}

You insist on referring to the bible again and again....

{without the Bible, there is no quran, Mohammad would not have known what stories to put into it.}

That is the same like saying that without the old testement, there is no new testement. If we considered that the Prophet did know those stories before revelation that wouldn't falsify Islam or all the prophets after Moses would be false including Jesus!!

{Also, the quran several times has dual messages; it confirms the Bible, yet disagrees with it}

Can you tell me which of the bibles that is, At the Nicea I conference held by emperor Constantine II there existed more than 50 gospels.... So which bible does the Quran confirms!!
We Muslims see the Gospel that has been revealed to Jesus by God to be confirmed by the Quran and it reveals the truth, but where is that Gospel??
And the Quran disagrees with all books claiming to be the Gospel at the time they are not.

{it has people mentioned as prophets that never existed in the Bible;}

Do you think that the prophets are only those mentioned in the Bible or even only in the Quran, it's due to God's mercy that all people of the world have their own prophets from amongst them so that God would have given everyone their chances to beleive or not.

{it says no compulsion in religion, then death to the infidel;}

Did you for once try to put the verses in each case within their context and try to understand the whole picture, or you just wanted to build a false case against Islam!

Yes, the main creed of Islam is <NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION>. And when the Quran mentions that we must kill the infidel, it is stating that in war time when both armies meet on the battlefield, and that we must not be mercy with that specific
infidel, because we will find none from him!!

{it says that you should pray to Jerusalem, then Mecca.}

Please where in the Quran does it say that we should pray to Jerusalem!! Yes, muslims in Medina did pray facing Jerusalem, but at the same time those in Mecca and Ethiopia where facing Mecca, and they differed because there was no verse mentioning the direction.... Until God did answer the wishes of the Prophet and said that from nowon it is always should be facing Mecca!!

{ The quran is a human book, it can not be eternal, otherwise it would have come down (as stated by some muslims), from heaven ‘unedited’, }

That is your own opinion that I will not trouble myself with. And I am sorry that you are so negative about the Quran, but that is your buisness......

{but as history, the hadiths & the quran prove, it is a compilation of some of Mohammad's sayings, at least 4 versions existed & pre-dated Uthman’s final edition.}

The trouble with some non-muslims is that maybe the read Arabic, but not once can they understand a word of it. Yes, history does mention different versions of the Quran but that only differ in the tongue used in writing the verses, but the meaning is the same in all texts.... What happened during Uthman's era is that only the Qurashi tongue was adopted from all 10 tongues.. So thank you for not understanding Arabic!!

{With all those errors, the quran can not be a universal reference point, except for muslims that believe it is inerrant }

I am really surprised that such an intelligent reader such as you wouldn't find all the errors both in the bible and in the christian creed??
Now let me ask you, logically can you prove the christian trinity??

 

[Yazdajerd]

Dear StarOfEight,
I must mention I don't agree with your statement that the existance of God can't be proved.....
As a begining, let's start with this issue: can you mention all the possible theories of how the universe as a whole came to existance??
I'll mention three possibilities:
1- It came to existance by chance,
2- It never came to existance, it was always there,
3- "Something" created it..
These are my theories, if anyone has anymore theories please bring them up so that we might all discuss them...... Thank you

 

[StarOfEight]

Since I am apparently too stupid, is there empirical evidence that "faith and logic are two separate spheres of human endeavor"

All the reports about God were not based on observation is what you are saying then, which is certainly equally "stupid" and rather arrogant of you. So Christ never ascended even though there were numerous witnesses?

Numerous witnesses? In the Bible? Well, okay, and there's numerous "proofs" of the inevitability of the communist revolution in Marx.

And South and Yaz - God's existence cannot be proven. Nor it can it be disproven. That's my point. People can present arguments on either side (the prevalence of religious belief in human society vs. the insoluble questions of theodicy), but it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God.

 

[§outh§tar]

Numerous witnesses? In the Bible? Well, okay, and there's numerous "proofs" of the inevitability of the communist revolution in Marx.

And South and Yaz - God's existence cannot be proven. Nor it can it be disproven. That's my point. People can present arguments on either side (the prevalence of religious belief in human society vs. the insoluble questions of theodicy), but it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God.

What then would you consider proof?

 

[jcarl]

"God's existence cannot be proven or disproven"

Isn't this statement just as much a positive affirmation as "there is a God' and "there isn't a god."?
How can you be so sure of this?

My apologies that this has no relevance to the initial topic.

 

[Preacher_X]

an interesting topic, but the seal of the prophets (saw) has nothing to do with birthmarks, it means the final Prophet, after which there will be no more.

Also, the Quran several times has dual messages; it confirms the Bible, yet disagrees with it;[/COLOR]

it confirms that the Bible was revealed by Allah but disagrees with it as it was changed. it says Christians are wrong but some are righteous (they have the wrong faith but are good in deeds and actions) and Allah will have mercy on them.

it has people mentioned as prophets that never existed in the Bible

like who? im not saying your wrong, im just asking for some examples. and anyway, the Quran has additions to it and omissions to it which were errors from the Biible and so corrected in the Quran.

it says no compulsion in religion then death to the infidel;

there is no need to follow Islam and it is not forced but death to the infidel who persecutes you and stops you from following your religion unless he repents.

it says that you should pray to Jerusalem, then Mecca

Muslims were directed by Allah to pray to Jerusalem but after the Kabbah was free from idols etc it was changed to Mecca. also, there was a specific incident when the angle Jibreal told Muhammad (saw) to change the direction and it is not a contradiction because Allah says it was changed and does not argue with that beacause he was the one ordering it. the verse that Angel Jibreal used was even from the Quran telling Muhammad to no longer pray towards Jerusalem but to Mecca (and the mosque that the Prophet (saw) was praying in at the time is in Mecca, it is less then 5 mins walk away from the Kabbah[/QUOTE]

The Quran is a human book, it can not be eternal, otherwise it would have come down (as stated by some Muslims), from heaven ‘unedited’, but as history, the hadiths & the Quran prove, it is a compilation of some of Mohammad's sayings, at least 4 versions existed & pre-dated Uthman’s final edition. With all those errors, the Quran can not be a universal reference point, except for Muslims that believe it is inerrant [/COLOR]

the Quran is unchanged. it is a common argument used by anti-Islam sites to talk about Usman. it is impossible for the Quran to be changed. firstly, the Quran was fully memorised by thousands of the Prophets (saw) companions, first hand by the Prophet (saw) and hundreds of thousands of Muslims knew parts of the Quran. also the ENTIRE Qurans is recited every year by an Imam in front of thousands (at taraweh prayers). also Usman was a companion of the prophet (saw) and knew what the Quran was like.

so i don’t think that the Quran was changed but to you i guess it can be arguable but hey, what about the Bible, you can say if the Bible is God's final word then why has it been changed? the Quran being changed is arguable while the Bible being changed is definite (and proven as there are many versions of the Bible found throughout History and even know Christians cant agree on the Bible). Christians convienantly say that all of the good stuff in the Bible is from God while all of the contradictions and not so good verses are mans additions (one Christian website i went on staed that the Bible is like a treasure map and the beauty and wonders of it are from God but it has been changed slightly, they then said if you did have a treasure map and it was slightly changed, you'd still use the map and not totally reject it just beacasue of a few (actually many) errors and it is the same with the Bible)

and if The Torah is the final word from God, then why did another Abrahmic religion (Christianity) take over the land it was spread and another revelation and Prophet (as) sent down confirming the old revelations and bring glad tidings fro the new? and if Christianity is the final word from God, then why was another Abrahamic religion revealed that took over the land that Christianity spread to and why has another Prophet (saw) sent down confirming the old and bring glad tidings for the new? but there is no new religion and Prophet after Muhammad (saw) confirming the old and telling of the new revelations.

and what about the Prophecies of a future Prophet (saw) coming down in the Bible? how do you explain them Randolfo?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Sorry 'bout that typo. I changed as soon as I saw it, which was before I read your reply.

saw afterwards, I just find it hard to believe that so many people can spell it wrong, you are not the first, I guess I should have used something hard like "ay Yliudrtewhgj2233", to force 'cut & paste', I'm too touchy

So Islam has what you percieve to be idolatry. Who the fuck cares? Christianity has Christmas trees and Santa Claws. That's really goddamn pagan.

agree on the trees & claws(is there some hidden message there?) idols? you be the judge; all pray to Mecca, must visit once in a lifetime, circle the Ka'aba, kiss the black stone, cresent-moon symbol for starters, then there is 'shrine islam' holy graves & shrines & 'fetish islam' amulets, fetishes, spells, etc.

The mother who blew herself up in palestine was a civilian. She didn't have to do it, and I don't think she was getting any virgins.

actually, there was a discussion on that, not sure if they get 'male virgins', no consensus on that, but under islam, a martyr for islam, especially during jihad, goes straight to heaven, no &'s, ifs or buts...

In "the early days" Islam was dishing out intense persecution from the sands of Arabia and Egypt to the shores of Spain.

that's after political & military power came, try the first years of Mohammad in Mecca, he even inserted the 'satanic verses' then, because of the intense pressure, insults, boycotts & threats

Islam actually could withstand persecution. They withstood barbaric invasions of cannibalistic Christians.

cannibals? you mean 'blood-thristy'?
as I said, after islam was firmly esthablished, it has many aspects that form psychological bonding;
1) simple rules & sayings (5 pillars, the shout, confession)
2) conformnity (all pray to Mecca 5 x a day, customs, arabic)
3) belief that you have the last , most perfect revelation from god

 

[WildBlueYonder]

an interesting topic, but the seal of the prophets (saw) has nothing to do with birthmarks, it means the final Prophet, after which there will be no more.

you need to read more hadith, Mohammad had a mole on his back

the Quran is unchanged. it is a common argument

yes many memorized parts, but even in the haiths, many say that several compilations happened before Uthman made the 'official' one, sorry, the quran is man-made

and what about the Prophecies of a future Prophet (saw) coming down in the Bible? how do you explain them Randolfo?

funny, how the Bible is "corrupted" when it suits muslims, but if they thing that it will swing their way, they use it.

Please, tell us what prophecies? when I read about Mohammad & his works, I think about the prophecies of the anti-Christ, false prophets, & the End of Days.

Mohammad was not the 'Comforter', read John 15: 26-27 to 16: 1-15 (the Gospel of John chapter 15: verses 26 to 27 & chapter 16: verses 1 to 15) the 'Comforter' is the Holy Spirit, you know, of the 'Trinity' that muslims don't believe in

peace, love

 

[Preacher_X]

you need to read more hadith, Mohammad had a mole on his back

ok, then he(saw) does, so what? that does not mean he(saw) is the last Prophet. there are 30,000 prophets, im sure one of them had a mole on their backs but they weren't the seal were they.

funny, how the Bible is "corrupted" when it suits muslims, but if they thing that it will swing their way, they use it.

I do not believe in the Bible anymore, it is only partially correct and has been altered by man. But YOU do believe in the Bible and I am asking YOU how do you explain the prophecies of Muhammad (saw). I'm not asking me or other Muslims, I'm asking YOU because YOU believe in the Bible so what do YOU say and how do you explain it?

yes many memorized parts, but even in the haiths, many say that several compilations happened before Uthman made the 'official' one, sorry, the quran is man-made

What horseshit. You've been on a few to many Christian Missionary websites. OK about Usman (RA) burning other copies of the Quran that did not match. Firstly, I don’t know even if that actually happened and I doubt it but anywayz, they were not hundreds of copies of the Quran as those sites will want you to believe. In those times mass printing was not available and there was a Quran in every village Mosque, which was an open house for all to see so if Usman did have to destroy other versions of the Quran then there would only be a few and the errors would be obvious as he knew he had the correct one as did the thousands of people who were in the hometown of the revelation of the Quran.

Usman was a companion of the Prophet (saw) and he had the Quran recited first hand by the Prophet (saw) and also thousands of people at the time and location of Usman had completely memorised the Quran and the writing if the Quran was actually supervised by Muhammad (SAW) himself and after his death it was written under the guidance of the Islamic rulers and the companions of the Prophets and the most trustable in the society.

Also, the actual Quran in Mecca and Madinah are for definite 100% the same as that is where they were revealed and that is where they were written down IN THE PROPHETS (SAW) TIME and memorised by thousands plus recorded under supervision and authenticated. The other copied of the Quran were to spread Islam to other parts of Arabia and since the Qurans' sent to these countries were copied from the 100% correct version and by authentication and the caliphs it was right.

Also trying to change the Quran and giving it to the Muslims would of resulted in most likely death.

The Quran being altered by people is complete horsecrap and used by anti-Islam publications and missionary's and has no proper basis.

 

[surenderer]

Well the problem Randolfo is when you critize someone else including their religion then you open yourself up to scrutiny. So please tell me how you can believe in the Trinity and still call yourself a montheist? How does the bible talk about women? Tell me one verse in the bible that was written by someone who knew Jesus(peace upon him) personally or even witnessed the "crucifiction" if Jesus was part of a whole who did he pray to? when was he God and when was he human? Why do you reject the old testement? because of the wars? well we as muslims acknowledge what God does when he gets angry do you? What is the book of Jashar?(joshua 10:13) did it have anything in it about Muhamaad? how do you know? why is it missing? how do you know nothing else is missing? What about the book of wars?(numbers 21:14) explain Chronicles 29:29 please.......you see i could go on but i wont.....I think one should examine their own backyard before they critisize their neighbors......peace

 

[white_poplar]

Well the problem Randolfo is when you critize someone else including their religion then you open yourself up to scrutiny. So please tell me how you can believe in the Trinity and still call yourself a montheist? How does the bible talk about women? Tell me one verse in the bible that was written by someone who knew Jesus(peace upon him) personally or even witnessed the "crucifiction" if Jesus was part of a whole who did he pray to? when was he God and when was he human? Why do you reject the old testement? because of the wars? well we as muslims acknowledge what God does when he gets angry do you? What is the book of Jashar?(joshua 10:13) did it have anything in it about Muhamaad? how do you know? why is it missing? how do you know nothing else is missing? What about the book of wars?(numbers 21:14) explain Chronicles 29:29 please.......you see i could go on but i wont.....I think one should examine their own backyard before they critisize their neighbors......peace

I agree. I cant understand why Christians claim that there is only one God, but then "three in One" and co-equal. Is the word "Trinity" mentioned at all in the whole Bible? And if the Bible is the words of God, why they have different versions? The words of God should be unique, no matter how the religion is divided. (As far as I know, even there are sub-divisions in Islam, they always refer to one Quran).

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Well the problem Randolfo is when you critize someone else including their religion then you open yourself up to scrutiny. So please tell me

you see i could go on but i wont.....I think one should examine their own backyard before they critisize their neighbors......peace

I'm not sure if you noticed, but this forum is trolled & patrolled by a few muslims, that feel it is their duty to spread their propaganda here, I feel it is my duty to put the "truth" out there, to refute some of the 'big' & 'little' lies that they put out as 'truth'. Did you know that they want you to believe that Abraham, Moses, David & Jesus were mulsims?

Anyway, thanks for the comment, but the Bible is written in plain English (or what ever language you speak); it is meant to stand on its own, it does not need me to explain it, just for you to believe or reject it on its own merits. All the others start with the Bible, but then have 'buts', sometimes very "BIG BUTS", islam is one of those religions, the more you find out about its history & its founder, the more confounded you are that people believe actually believe it.

 

[StarOfEight]

Randolfo, the Bible was written long before English existed. More to the point, if you hold Christianity be more true because it precedes Islam and the LDS church, then that same logic would make Judaism and Zororastianism more true than Christianity.

Furthermore, how can you critcize the Muslim appropriation of Jesus when Christians have appropriated Abraham, Moses and David?

 

[surenderer]

I'm not sure if you noticed, but this forum is trolled & patrolled by a few muslims, that feel it is their duty to spread their propaganda here, I feel it is my duty to put the "truth" out there, to refute some of the 'big' & 'little' lies that they put out as 'truth'. Did you know that they want you to believe that Abraham, Moses, David & Jesus were mulsims?

Anyway, thanks for the comment, but the Bible is written in plain English (or what ever language you speak); it is meant to stand on its own, it does not need me to explain it, just for you to believe or reject it on its own merits. All the others start with the Bible, but then have 'buts', sometimes very "BIG BUTS", islam is one of those religions, the more you find out about its history & its founder, the more confounded you are that people believe actually believe it.

Well actually Muslim means "one who submits to Gods will" so the people you named were by definition muslims. What would you call them christians? Christ wasnt even around yet. I know the bible stands on its own but you dont bash its inconsistances(sp?) you only bash what you see in the Koran which either makes you a hypocrite or you think the Bible is perfect which is it? I am a muslim however if you notice i dont spread propoganda i only defend my religion because thats my duty to do so. There are muslims here who use means that i dont agree with but you should take that up with them not their religion.....peace unto you

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Randolfo, the Bible was written long before English existed.

that's the beauty of it, God speaks to all, no matter what era, language, people, race, ethnicity, country. you do not have to read the Bible in Vulgate Latin, quranic Arabic or Koine Greek, unless you speak them as a matter of course.

More to the point, if you hold Christianity be more true because it precedes Islam and the LDS church, then that same logic would make Judaism and Zororastianism more true than Christianity.

no, because they both spring from Christianity. neither islam or LDS could exist without Christianity. Judaism differs only in that Christians see the Old Testament & see prophecies about Jesus; including Psalms 22 & Isaiah 53. while Jews do not

the LDS can not stand upon any historical or archeological evidence, it is a docu-drama about the supposed ancestors of the Native Americans; the day that a "real" Naphite, Laminite or Jarite site is found, will be the day that many will have to eat their words; including the Smithsonian, Egyptologists, Mayanists, etc... & me. look forward to it

Furthermore, how can you critcize the Muslim appropriation of Jesus when Christians have appropriated Abraham, Moses and David?

ahh, but the beauty is that those men stayed Aramean, Israelite, Judean. in islam, they became something they were not, islam did not exist prior to Mohammad, need the archeological or literary proof otherwise. BTW, there is proof that many people worshipped 'allah' before Mohammad; many in his family already had been named for the pagan 'allah' prior to his 'revelations'

 

[WildBlueYonder]

an interesting topic, but the seal of the prophets (saw) has nothing to do with birthmarks, it means the final Prophet, after which there will be no more.

the Quran is unchanged. it is a common argument used by anti-Islam sites to talk about Usman. it is impossible for the Quran to be changed. firstly, the Quran was fully memorised by thousands of the Prophets (saw) companions, first hand by the Prophet (saw) and hundreds of thousands of Muslims knew parts of the Quran. also the ENTIRE Qurans is recited every year by an Imam in front of thousands (at taraweh prayers). also Usman was a companion of the prophet (saw) and knew what the Quran was like.

then read the hadiths, they confirm that there were several versions, can you read arabic? there are parts mentioned in them, that do not appear in present quran, want to learn more?

and what about the Prophecies of a future Prophet (saw) coming down in the Bible? how do you explain them Randolfo?

if you ever read the Bible, you would know they do not refer to Mohammad, just wishful thinking