Seal of the prophets?

W

WildBlueYonder

Guest
when muslims say that Mohammad was the "seal of the prophets", they seem to mean two thinngs;
1) that God sealed His connection for making prophets (so no more prophets to humankind), thus Mohammad is the last prophet
2) that Mohammad had a "seal", some mark between his shoulder blades, that 'sealed' him as a prophet, in other words he was "marked" by God

as a Christian I have two problems with either meaning;
1) since very little of the quran follows biblical truth, I find it hard to believe that the quran was inspired by God. Also, most christians feel that Revelations was the last & final Book of the Bible, no more, ever
2) since Mohammad was "sealed", I would like to know what the 'mark' was? was it "666"? therefore the mark of the devil. why was Mohammad 'marked'? no other prophet was marked, except for Jesus, He got a whipping for us. all other prophet didn't have marks, Moses studdered, he radiated light after being in God's presence on the mountaintop
 
The supposed seal was a mole on his back. Why anybody thought this was a sign of the prophet I have no idea.

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 189:
Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid:
My aunt took me to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! This son of my sister has got a disease in his legs." So he passed his hands on my head and prayed for Allah's blessings for me; then he performed ablution and I drank from the remaining water. I stood behind him and saw the seal of Prophethood between his shoulders, and it was like the "Zir-al-Hijla" (means the button of a small tent, but some said 'egg of a partridge.' etc.)
 
Igor Trip said:
The supposed seal was a mole on his back. Why anybody thought this was a sign of the prophet I have no idea.
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unkown how a birthmark or mole can 'seal' someone, thus;

Marilyn Monroe 'sealed' as the last beautiful woman
Goribchev 'sealed' as the last communist
Carmen Electra 'sealed' as the last artificial woman
Enrique Iglesias 'sealed' as the last spanish-language singer
 
Randolfo said:
since very little of the quran follows biblical truth,
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qu'ran or bible please define truth.
as truth is only truth to who is saying it's the truth at the time.
thank you
 
Igor Trip said:
The supposed seal was a mole on his back. Why anybody thought this was a sign of the prophet I have no idea.

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 189:
Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid:
My aunt took me to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! This son of my sister has got a disease in his legs." So he passed his hands on my head and prayed for Allah's blessings for me; then he performed ablution and I drank from the remaining water. I stood behind him and saw the seal of Prophethood between his shoulders, and it was like the "Zir-al-Hijla" (means the button of a small tent, but some said 'egg of a partridge.' etc.)
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Don't forget, that in the past, birthmarks, moles and other skin markings were seen to be either evil or signs from God. This did not exist solely in Islam, but in every other religion and society that existed. Think back to the witch hunts where women who had a scar, mole or birthmark on their bodies were seen to have been marked by the devil and these women were burnt at the stake. In Catholicism even today, people who supposedly suffer from the stigmata phenomenon are seen by others to have been touched by Jesus.
 
Randolf

You're paying Enrique Iglesias the hugest compliment by calling him a singer. Infact you're doing a huge disservice to the profession if you include him in their ranks.

as a Christian I have two problems with either meaning;
1) since very little of the quran follows biblical truth, I find it hard to believe that the quran was inspired by God. Also, most christians feel that Revelations was the last & final Book of the Bible, no more, ever
That's a rather redundant statement. Of course you don't believe anything but what you're programmed to believe- which is christianity. Therefore there is no way you can accept anything else to possibly be the truth.

No religion allows any room for there to be any truths but the ones contained in the pages of its holy texts. Ordained by whatever god who is omni-everything by definition, there can't be anything true but (for example) what is said the bible if I were christian (I mean come on, if you don't believe what is in the bible then you don't believe in your interpretation of an omniscient god therefore you debase your whole belief in christianity. But this is worked around by many through the ungod-like nature of the blooper riddled holy texts to which people subscribe and their own powerful usage of purposeful ignorance. Ah the content of knowing what a boon it has been to me being brought up without a dogma (religious or otherwise) chained around my neck).

No one comes to believe about god unless there are external influences working their magic. Every person is programmed into believing in something. The difference between me and most religious people is I have programmed myself and they haven't. If feel lucky that way because if I change my mind about something it is not going to shatter the basis of who I am, unlike all those religious sods who are in fear of having so much of who they are disproved that it causes irrational thinking and behaviour.

Peace,

a
 
pavlosmarcos said:
qu'ran or bible please define truth.
as truth is only truth to who is saying it's the truth at the time.
thank you]
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so truth is relative? then according to you, there is no truth?
are you talking about ideas or concrete facts?
 
Neildo said:
Cindy Crawford beats Marilyn Monroe. :p

- N
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no, sorry, MM is the 'seal' of beauty, all others are false, corrupted, evil 'beauties'
 
MM was a cow of a blond. A little heavyset and nothing at all remarkable about her face or legs. People who try to tell me that Marilyn was some uber sex symbol, boy I know they have some pretty plane jane tastes.
 
anyway, what proof can islam show that Mohammad was the "seal" of the prophets? mormons believe it was Joe Smith. how can a birthmark prove anything? sounds weak, no logic
 
Randolfo, what proof can you show that Christ ascended to heaven?

The entire point of faith, whether you believe in the immaculate conception, the angel Moroni, or the the revolutionary potential of the proletariat - is that isn't a logical exercise.
 
no, sorry, MM is the 'seal' of beauty, all others are false, corrupted, evil 'beauties'
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I'll skip the false part but I don't mind the corrupted and evil beauty part. I like my women fiesty. :D

- N
 
Khaled A. Jawish said:
I am a born Sunni but came to embrace Shiism.
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Welcome to Sciforums.

Would you mind why that conversion.? I personally feel that shiites are a bit emotional.
 
StarOfEight said:
Randolfo, what proof can you show that Christ ascended to heaven?

The entire point of faith, whether you believe in the immaculate conception, the angel Moroni, or the the revolutionary potential of the proletariat - is that isn't a logical exercise.
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that's the stupidest statement i have heard in a while.

i hope you dont have any faith that when you press "submit" that your reply will go through.

or that the chair you are sitting in will hold you up

or that you will be alive an hour from now

or that your lungs won't collapse on you



it doesnt matter where you believe you are a human being or not, it's not "a logical exercise".

It's all faith, hm?
 
StarOfEight said:
Randolfo, what proof can you show that Christ ascended to heaven?
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From a band of scattered, scared disciples to band of bold evangelists, martyred believers willing to die for their risen Lord, even with 40 years of intense persecution by Jews (until the Jews revolted against the Romans & lost) & then over 300 years of intense Roman persecution (until the Romans converted).

Paul even said, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, we are the most miserable of deceived people. Something proved to those of that era that Jesus had power over death; otherwise why struggle for all those years? Read 1 Co 15:12-34 (1 Book to the Corinthians Chapter 15: verses 12 to 34)

now as for us, well that’s based on faith, who should we believe? a man that claimed to be God? or a man that claimed only to be his apostle (with a flawed message, a flawed book & a flawed character)?

Read the Bible, then decide.
 
Khaled A. Jawish said:
Dear Rondolfo,
Thank you for bringing up such a intresting issue for discussion, and I think being a muslim I might have some information more than others in dealing with issue.
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thank you on both counts


First you said that "seal" seam to mean last of the prophets which i agree with. As for the other meaning that seemed to you which is the birth mark has nothing to do with seal of prophets, it is a matter that lists under the issue that each of the prohets of God, the Almighty, had sighns that show that he is the one mentioned by earlier prophets one of which is the birthmark between his shoulders.
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not sure that is Biblical, all other prophets had miracles, not birthmarks, can you show where you got that info?



Second you referred that the Bible is your referrence as a christian, that which i respect, but that you are questioning another religion means that conversation should be based on mutual referrences not on your own referrence. We as muslims do not hold the Bible as a referrence nor do we think that it holds The Truth.
Hence, you should, with all due respect convince me that your referrence is the truth or i convince you with my referrence so that the discussion be rational.
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without the Bible, there is no quran, Mohammad would not have known what stories to put into it.

Also, the quran several times has dual messages; it confirms the Bible, yet disagrees with it; it has people mentioned as prophets that never existed in the Bible; it says no compulsion in religion, then death to the infidel; it says that you should pray to Jerusalem, then Mecca. The quran is a human book, it can not be eternal, otherwise it would have come down (as stated by some muslims), from heaven ‘unedited’, but as history, the hadiths & the quran prove, it is a compilation of some of Mohammad's sayings, at least 4 versions existed & pre-dated Uthman’s final edition.With all those errors, the quran can not be a universal reference point, except for muslims that believe it is inerrant
 
Randolfo,
Religion is politics. The Jews used Christianity to throw of the shackles of Roman oppression. So what if people died for their beliefs?

American soldiers die for Bush and Cheney's beliefs. Muslims strap on dynamite and blow up Jews for their beliefs. Following your reason, there must be something incredibly true in the Quran and Bush's get oil schemes. Otherwise, why struggle?
 
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Khaled A. Jawish

And Dear Atheroy,
I am, although a beleiver in Islam, admire your way of thinking and that there is no dogma attached around your neck, and i tell you beleive me there is no dogma attached around my neck too. I respect rational thinking and truth could be reached by it not any other means. I have come to embrace my own religion after being convinced it is the truth and questioning every bit of it. Not only that but many of the traditional beleifs by my muslim bretheren i came to refuse after judjing them. For one, I am a born Sunni but came to embrace Shiism.
People should think for themselves, indulge in conversations and find the truth for themselves while respecting each others differences, or God's creation of our brains would be meaningless. And in the end we shall all, hopefully, come to the same truth.

It's all good. I find that people who have come to accept religion later in life tend to be much less ignorant than the religious person who is conceived at birth. I wouldn't go so far as to say I have no dogma's chained around my neck after thinking about it. I am a product of my society whether I want to align myself with society at large or not.
I therefore try to deconstruct all of the messages that are encoded in this media saturated existance we live. Of course I will favour western values over others values because of what I am, but that does not stop me from questioning why this is the case.
I think for one, mostly everyone could chill out a bit. Everyone has to understand and respect the fact that there are different cultures all over this world and we should be trying our damned hardest to be respectful of each others cultures even if we find it alien.

I'll stop preaching but there's to much agnst going around that is caused by antagonists who's beliefs cause them to think they are superior. To me that is religions main undoing. People like George W Bush believe they are righteously motivated and that because of this, their personal beliefs are superior to any others. The same can be said of Osama Bin-Laden, Hitler, Mel Gibsons dad. People who hold onto these convictions can never really respect another persons culture because even before this different culture was met, the person is prejudiced against it. That to me seems to be the cause of intolerance and why calls for religious tolerance from people like the pope sound hollow. When it comes down to it he knows he is superior to some or any muslim, buddhist, protestant. There can be no middle ground because it is black and white.

I feel free because I can accept or reject parts of anyones culture knowing that I am not doing it because innately I feel superior to the people that practice what they do. I can accept and even understand one part of peoples need for religion- I often struggle with the fact that the only purpose I have here on this earth is what I make it. That and a life span of something more than a hundred years (if I'm lucky and unlucky). Apart from that, I do seriously believe that people who have been brought up within religious beliefs are programmed. Whether they move on to hold convictions that are greater than what they were brought up believing- the fact of the matter is that the conviction will never change, it will only be enhanced. The neurological pathways that have been formed from the religious up bringing ensure that unless a severe knock to the head shakes them loose, a person with such beliefs cannot change this. They will always need it because it is a part of them. I can't grow this understanding because it wasn't something that I learned from my parents when I was growing up. I said I'd stop my spiel ages ago so I'll stop for real now.

cheers to anyone who reads this,

a
 
Roman said:
Randolof,
Religion is politics. The Jews used Christianity to throw of the shackles of Roman oppression. So what if people died for their beliefs?

American soldiers die for Bush and Cheney's beliefs. Muslims strap on dynamite and blow up Jews for their beliefs. Following your reason, there must be something incredibly true in the Quran and Bush's get oil schemes. Otherwise, why struggle?
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thanks Roman, for making me ‘Russian’, I guess ‘cut & paste’ is too much to ask? would you have preferred that I go by the name, "ay Yliudrtewhgj2233"? There, much easier on the tongue & to type, no? you can call me 'ay 2233' for short.

anyway, back to the subject, I don't think islam could have taken such intense persecution in its early days, Mohammad was forced to insert the "satanic verses" & may have changed his first monotheistic message to a more pagan Meccan one (by including it as the qibla, the Kaaba, Mecca as the hajj destination, Ramadan & their crescent-moon god as allah), then no it couldn’t, but now it can.

soldiers have to die for the beliefs of their bosses, whether under G. Bush or Mohammad, any one that slinks back, would be a coward, or if he defies them, a treasonous or mutinous one. anyone that dies for G. Bush, may be stupid, but if you die expecting virgins in heaven as your reward, you are deluded.

those early Christians were civilians, they didn't have to stand up for Christ, could have been ‘average joe’ Americans, you know Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. & could have blended in with the culture, not made waves, lived normal lives, but no, they felt like proclaiming Jesus from the markets, to the mountaintops, under threat of death.

Anyway, we'll see if the Palestinians can withstand that much oppression under the Israeli state.
 
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