ah but your argument is that it doesnt work anywhere (inspite of the evidence that its working quite well in the nethlands i might add) and i showed you quite well that your argument is full of crap. Maybe, just MAYBE you will stop trying to throw up smoke screens and actually admit your reall ajenda. Or i could make it easy on you, why dont you and i debate this in a formal debate? Bells is welcome to join if she wants because i know she has ALSO read the bill when she helped me out with my assessment of it
Scotland Assisted Suicide Legalization Bill Narrowed, Still Targets Disabled
- Thread starter Brian Foley
- Start date
And now the oozing compassssssiooonnnnnn of assisted suicide is revealed to all. And the same agenda is at the root of Futile Care Theory. When life gets tough, it is time for the ill to get going onto whatever comes next.
Ill debate you on it, oh and I dont mean the SA Bill, I mean the concept as a whole globally.come on, if you are SERIOUS about the concept being impossable as a whole. debate me. I will just need a couple of days to dig up my work and then i will be compleatly ready to go
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Brian:Unfortunately your consent to this law, which has never had a vote, is allowing this practice to intrude on me and others fears. There was no vote in 1920 concerning Eugenics just consemnt from the 'medical and scientific' community, within in 20 years whole populations were being gassed at Aushwitz. Enjoy your World.
Eugenics in Nazi Germany isn't a good example. Eugenics by the way is practiced all the time, for example when you choose to mate with a healthy, intelligent specimen of a partner as opposed to one who has some defect, it plays a natural part in evolution, but lets not get too sidetracked. Nazi Germany represented an unstable perverse State where its victims were not offered consent...that's is what made them victims. You may choose to believe that a society which condones euthanasia is also unstable and perverse, fair enough but as has been pointed out you have the right NOT to off yourself if you were very ill. I on the other hand would choose this for myself and would expect my family to abide by my wishes if I were disabled or unconscious. I wouldn't expect anything less, you may not understand this but that's okay, no one is asking you to. At the same time it would be none of my concern if you wanted to spend what remained of your life in a state of suffering, its a little funny that you think others would care enough to want you dead against your wishes.
Now when I asked where you found evidence 18 year olds suffering from diabetes committing euthanasia you linked this:
An Act to provide for the administration of medical procedures to assist the death of a limited number of patients who are in the terminal phase of a terminal illness, who are suffering unbearable pain and who have expressed a desire for the procedures subject to appropriate safeguards; and for other purposes.
This bill refers to the terminally ill, diabetes is not a terminal illness so this bill doesn't apply and no where does it mention anything about 18 year olds.
Brian: If that is the case then why cannot it not go to democratic vote in whatever nation these bills appear in?
I think you would lose in a referendum on this issue.
Eugenics in Nazi Germany isn't a good example. Eugenics by the way is practiced all the time, for example when you choose to mate with a healthy, intelligent specimen of a partner as opposed to one who has some defect, it plays a natural part in evolution, but lets not get too sidetracked. Nazi Germany represented an unstable perverse State where its victims were not offered consent...that's is what made them victims. You may choose to believe that a society which condones euthanasia is also unstable and perverse, fair enough but as has been pointed out you have the right NOT to off yourself if you were very ill. I on the other hand would choose this for myself and would expect my family to abide by my wishes if I were disabled or unconscious. I wouldn't expect anything less, you may not understand this but that's okay, no one is asking you to. At the same time it would be none of my concern if you wanted to spend what remained of your life in a state of suffering, its a little funny that you think others would care enough to want you dead against your wishes.
Now when I asked where you found evidence 18 year olds suffering from diabetes committing euthanasia you linked this:
An Act to provide for the administration of medical procedures to assist the death of a limited number of patients who are in the terminal phase of a terminal illness, who are suffering unbearable pain and who have expressed a desire for the procedures subject to appropriate safeguards; and for other purposes.
This bill refers to the terminally ill, diabetes is not a terminal illness so this bill doesn't apply and no where does it mention anything about 18 year olds.
Brian: If that is the case then why cannot it not go to democratic vote in whatever nation these bills appear in?
I think you would lose in a referendum on this issue.
no brian. the AUSTRALIAN health system. im not going to be forced into debating the merits of a system i think sucks. if you think the concept sucks you can use australian acts, laws and bills to prove it. after all its the system which effects us both isnt it
I think it definitely gets complicated when we're talking about nonvoluntary and involuntary suicide, but I believe that even in the U.S., say, you can pull the plug on someone who is only alive because they've been hooked up to a machine that keeps them that way but even so they are comatose.
As to assisted suicide, I definitely think it has its merits. As the population keeps on increasing, we may find that it is truly a mercy to let some people die instead of letting them just starve to death or die from various preventable ailments (if only money were available to treat them).
Eugenics started in Europe and America in 1910 way before Nazi Germany existed. The point I am making is what road Eugenics laid to which ultimately led to Auschwitz.
You are not comprehending the nature of the Bill, read who is eligible for this option, thats what I call abuse. And if this Bill is passed then an 18 year old with diabetes can apply.
If society wants a democratic vote on Euthanasia by all means I want that, I would like a vote on this issue.
I dont believe so, as abortion has never been put to the referendum in any nation.. If America had a vote on abortion it would be illegal and Euthanasia likewise will never see a referendum. Your world is a world I care not to live in, but as it stands several nations now have Euthanasia programs none have been put to the vote, so it is YOU who are infringing on my democratic right to have a say.
Of course, the cop out, there is no Euthanasia system in operation in Australia and your Bill has been in transit for nearly a decade. However if you wish to debate Euthasia programs already in operation globally I will happily grind you into the dirt.
That is the road Eugenics led to with its inception in 1910, by 1940 whole segments of the population were being culled to a human hygiene programme.
So what? How much is society willing to pay to delay the inevitable? What if medical technology could keep you alive into your 200's, but it costs a million dollars a month? You have to draw the line somewhere.
The man is 53 years old and he does not want to die just yet, this contradicts all your bullshit about people wishing to die, he wants to live, let him.
Lets have society put it to a vote.
By the time such technology is available 1 million dollars would be nothing.
We do already with persons attached to life support machines the family turns them off.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Brian: You are not comprehending the nature of the Bill, read who is eligible for this option, thats what I call abuse. And if this Bill is passed then an 18 year old with diabetes can apply.
How? Please outline how an 18 year old diabetic could apply when diabetes is not a terminal illness?
Brian: I dont believe so, as abortion has never been put to the referendum in any nation.. If America had a vote on abortion it would be illegal and Euthanasia likewise will never see a referendum. Your world is a world I care not to live in, but as it stands several nations now have Euthanasia programs none have been put to the vote, so it is YOU who are infringing on my democratic right to have a say.
I don't want to live in your world either, especially if you would outlaw abortion as this would infringe on a woman's right to exercise control over her body. I disagree that if you held a referendum on abortion that it would be made illegal, I think you would see just as large a turnout as when they were voting for obama. How is it that your rights are being infringed upon? You don't have a right to choose an abortion but you do have a right to not choose euthanasia. But seriously, what is is about euthanasia (especially abortion) that bothers you so much you would actively work against it (using the law)? I ask this because I know people who dislike the idea of both but wouldn't try to make it illegal for others. Where does this conviction come from? Is it religious? I can tell you are really in earnest over this issue and I am curious why its so important for you. Vague fears about a future nazi-like State don't apply, in other words I don't buy that. How can you outlaw both laws and not infringe on the rights of others?
How? Please outline how an 18 year old diabetic could apply when diabetes is not a terminal illness?
Brian: I dont believe so, as abortion has never been put to the referendum in any nation.. If America had a vote on abortion it would be illegal and Euthanasia likewise will never see a referendum. Your world is a world I care not to live in, but as it stands several nations now have Euthanasia programs none have been put to the vote, so it is YOU who are infringing on my democratic right to have a say.
I don't want to live in your world either, especially if you would outlaw abortion as this would infringe on a woman's right to exercise control over her body. I disagree that if you held a referendum on abortion that it would be made illegal, I think you would see just as large a turnout as when they were voting for obama. How is it that your rights are being infringed upon? You don't have a right to choose an abortion but you do have a right to not choose euthanasia. But seriously, what is is about euthanasia (especially abortion) that bothers you so much you would actively work against it (using the law)? I ask this because I know people who dislike the idea of both but wouldn't try to make it illegal for others. Where does this conviction come from? Is it religious? I can tell you are really in earnest over this issue and I am curious why its so important for you. Vague fears about a future nazi-like State don't apply, in other words I don't buy that. How can you outlaw both laws and not infringe on the rights of others?
An example of Health Insurance Companies efforts to facilitate assisted suicide, saving on paying out for prescriptions.
Under the Act which target Terminal illnesses it also make an exception for excessive non Terminal pain.
Maybe diabetes was an ill advised choice, but it is evident the Act does make provisions for non Terminal maladies.
Im just against abortion on demand, Im for a responsible program.
I stopped going to Church as a 7 year old in 1971 when my parents divorced, yes I do believe in God, but my concern is a RESPECT for life and Death of an individual.
Its not vague, it actually happened it went from 'good intentions' to an outright extermination program. I just cannot accept your almost gullible belief that this will not lead to an expansion and inclusion on non voluntary euthanasia.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Brian: Under the Act which target Terminal illnesses it also make an exception for excessive non Terminal pain.
Diabetes is not that kind of disease. Its an insulin problem but it doesn't inflict excessive pain, you can go into a coma, it can affect the vascular system, you can even go blind but its still a manageable disease. Its not a nice disease at it affects every organ in the body but people suffering from diabetes are not incapacitated with pain. What non-teminal maladies are subject to euthanasia?
Brian: Im just against abortion on demand, Im for a responsible program.
what kind of abortion is 'on demand' and what would you, as a male, consider a responsible program? What would the criteria be?
Brian:I stopped going to Church as a 7 year old in 1971 when my parents divorced, yes I do believe in God, but my concern is a RESPECT for life and Death of an individual.
I didn't ask if you went to church I asked if you were religious. But thanks you answered the question. I understand you are concerned with respect for life an death, so am I, so is Asguard. We respect that someone who is in severe pain suffering a terminal illness has a right to meet their death with dignity and choose their own time. I respect the life of a woman enough to allow her the right to an abortion.
Brian:Its not vague, it actually happened it went from 'good intentions' to an outright extermination program. I just cannot accept your almost gullible belief that this will not lead to an expansion and inclusion on non voluntary euthanasia.
I hardly believe that Hitler began with good intentions. He outlined what he wanted to do way before he came into power. I am not gullible, I am also not paranoid and fearful.
Again how can you make sure you are not infringing on the rights of others?
Diabetes is not that kind of disease. Its an insulin problem but it doesn't inflict excessive pain, you can go into a coma, it can affect the vascular system, you can even go blind but its still a manageable disease. Its not a nice disease at it affects every organ in the body but people suffering from diabetes are not incapacitated with pain. What non-teminal maladies are subject to euthanasia?
Brian: Im just against abortion on demand, Im for a responsible program.
what kind of abortion is 'on demand' and what would you, as a male, consider a responsible program? What would the criteria be?
Brian:I stopped going to Church as a 7 year old in 1971 when my parents divorced, yes I do believe in God, but my concern is a RESPECT for life and Death of an individual.
I didn't ask if you went to church I asked if you were religious. But thanks you answered the question. I understand you are concerned with respect for life an death, so am I, so is Asguard. We respect that someone who is in severe pain suffering a terminal illness has a right to meet their death with dignity and choose their own time. I respect the life of a woman enough to allow her the right to an abortion.
Brian:Its not vague, it actually happened it went from 'good intentions' to an outright extermination program. I just cannot accept your almost gullible belief that this will not lead to an expansion and inclusion on non voluntary euthanasia.
I hardly believe that Hitler began with good intentions. He outlined what he wanted to do way before he came into power. I am not gullible, I am also not paranoid and fearful.
Again how can you make sure you are not infringing on the rights of others?
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Chronic non-terminal chronic cardiac and renal failure
Automatically for cases of rape, incest or fetal impairment, on request provided the mother has a compulsory assessment by a Psychiatrist and examination by a Medical Doctor who both certify that the mother's physical and mental health will not be endangered by an abortion. And the Mother is given full choice options of either State adoption or State assistance in welfare payments and housing to help her raise the child if she chooses not to abort her baby. Then I believe the Mother has been given a full proper choice over terminating her pregnancy.
You simply have not met anyone who was an inmate of an Extermination camp, I have, 3 in fact, all had respect for life. I knew as a young teen a neighbour of ours a certain Dr Reginald Clay who operated a private retreat for depressed persons, I used to do work for him and his wife. During WWII he was in charge of a Psychatric unit within the British Military that treated soldiers for various psychaiatric illnesses such as combat fatigue. Toward the end of WWII and after he spent many months in the Extermination and Concentration camps, he told me lots of things I have never forgotten. I read up on this Holocaust and what led to it, and that is where is started with good intentions.
Im not infringing on anyones rights I am concerned for future generations safety and health, that makes me responsible.
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Distorted what you Fucking clot? Its one of 2 options under the interpretation, and its applicable to someone suffering extreme pain.