Given the framework of the OP, it's probably more appropriate to explore the relationship between logic and the sense of self ... as in whether we bring logic to determine our sense of self or whether our sense of self determines the logic through which we see the world. Generally people subscribe to the latter ... especially after soldiering through the many identity crises to land in old age.
For instance, you are probably highly unlikely to take an interest in rap music sometime between now and the grave because you don't see the sense in it. You no doubt view the topic of God in the same manner.
Of course whether one likes this type of music or that type is purely subjective and doesn't bear an obvious ontological position. Disregarding one genre of music in favour of another doesn't necessarily reveal a particular "take" on this world. So regarding tastes in music, we might ultimately arrive at that often violated truce of modern secularism, "anything is ok as long as no one gets hurt", and go about our merry ways with our individual playlists.
However a/theism does demand a certain ontological divide, and, much like music, tastes are defined according to the individual. Arriving at the secular truce is certainly a useful (and valuable) tool for civil governance, but conflating the highest civil authority with the highest ontological reality obviously doesn't mesh .... so we are left with discussions of who is actually right and who is really wrong.
To take a particular position is to default one to belittling the position of the other. Of course that can take a very Gawdzillaesque form of sloppy tirades of animosity or a more thought out form of philosophical debate ... but regardless of approach, it seems inevitable that one employs values and beliefs to fortify an ontological position.
In short, no one approaches the subject of ontology without values and beliefs, and those values and beliefs are the logical consequence of how one perceives their self.
Of course atheism popularly attempts to circumvent this necessity by introducing science as a gateway to objectivity. But in the absence of a clear explanation why science would hold any authority to either disregard or assert God's existence, it just becomes a red herring in the guise of a value and belief.
I find your post most pleasant so I will get off my little pony.
You mention my self confidence and unfortunately or perhaps fortunately I have always been somewhat top dog in the pecking order even as an employee which I was for part of my professional life.
And I can understand how that confidence perhaps left little room for or any need for a god.
You are correct that I see no point in rap music for I dismiss it as mere poetry whilst someone plays part of a scale...but then a musian friend once said most lyrics are poetry sung rather than spoken.
The depth of your post causes me to reflect and to admit I have been somewhat loud and perhaps agressive.
But you know your little pony comment I did not like for I pride myself in an expression that most would call simple and spent the past twenty years developing that style.
You see I was blessed with a daughter when fifty years old and adjusted to talk simply but clearly in an effort to be easily understood by her...also the major adjustment in style was perhaps somewhat a revolt againt the various careers I experienced.
One turned on clear written expression, law, and the other on verbal expression, domestic real estate sales and management.
Moreover so many folk really endevour to rank themselves as superior by injecting a word that send some to a dictionary.
I dislike that type... even folk I suspect may be that type.
The peculiar aspect in my case is I came to this site because I have some interest in science mainly related to my hobby of astro photography and astronomy in general.
Ironically I found that I became involved in the religious forums and for whatever reason found I could be annoyed by theists.
That in part or fully perhaps may have been reading Jan's posts which at that time seemed to show no regard for views other than his own and perhaps I detected a hint of intellectual arrogance which layed foundation for my declining respect for theists in general.
Still I always liked Jan and his ability to ...well whatever it is that he does☺
And really that is not typical of me as I see myself as tolerant of all folk and all views.
You have caused me to think what it is that fires me up with religion where say politics or cats or all manner of things do not cause a ripple in the attitude.
I suppose like many things I generlise my view of the group we here call theists and attribute the bad aspects to all in the group rather than to be specific and target only those who deserve criticism. .well thats judgemental but that is a close as I can come at present to making sence of my thoughts.
I can rationalise that my bad behaviour of being aggressively intolerant is dealing with theists in the manner I perceive they deal with others.
My view of there being a god is coloured more by the attempts humans make in claiming they know what god is and what he expects when clearly there is no reason to think a god would be involved such that his motives thoughts or actions would be privy to humans.
That arrogance is offensive to me.
But add to that that these ideas were invented in times when humans were highly superstitious and yet now placed in such high regard for no other reason they are ancient or form part of our history just has me ranting against the stupidy I perceive of such an approach.
I dont use science in support of my views in the way some do ... we have science tberefore we need no god...no for me I think it comes down to rejecting the stupidity of thinking a human could interprete what god expects...it is hopelessly arrogant...but dont take that as any recognition on my part that there may be a god.
I suppose if I ran the planet I would be encouraging folk to be religious as it makes them easy to control and in my view errodes their ability to think for themselves.
Having said that my motivation would be more to keep them happy than to control them.
I think you know my view as to the non existence of a god but hopefully you now understand why I have been aggressive and cut off discussion.
Again a nice post..thank you.
Alex
