Scientists Deem Creation to Be the Most Rational Explanation of Universe

ellion said:
what was this thread about again? oh yes!

who created god?
I don't have a clue, nor do I have the knowledge required to either prove or disprove the existence of God.

I know both atheists and logical thinkers hate this statement: I just believe it. It may have been pounded into my head as a child, maybe not, all I know is it is my belief and and I have a right to it.

I constantly look for intelligent literature about this topic, be it for or against creationism, and there just isn't enough of it. This is something that humans cannot know without a shadow of a doubt with our current knowledge. Nearly all literature I read on this subject is biased. Christian literature is always full of crap about God's greatness or it just retells the story of the bible like no one has ever heard it. I would love to see a completely factual account of the existence of God, but I don't think one exists.

It may be a naive thing to say, but I am content in thinking that my brain just isn't powerful enough to understand certain things (such as who created the creator). I figure if it is true, then I will go to heaven and learn the truth in the end, and if it is not true, then there was no harm done. I will be nonexistent when I die, so who cares about these things by that time?
 
"It may be a naive thing to say, but I am content in thinking that my brain just isn't powerful enough to understand certain things (such as who created the creator)."

I dig that, but wonder why then you thing you can understand anything about a creator? Why not just say "sure, maybe there's a creator" rather than "just believing it"? That seems like a contradiction in your thinking to me. The thing is there is no factual account of god as you put it, because the concept is by its definition beyond the scope of human comprehension. One thing you can certainly say is "there are things beyond my comprehension", but then you say "one of them is the creator", as if it is necessarily related to your vision of it. We came into being somehow, apparently through a biological progression of goop changing into differently shaped and abled goop. Did that necessarily require a "creator"? No, not necessarily. Nobody knows for sure. We can only guess.

Hell I can even accept "I guess there's a creator", because that shows the humility of limited comprehension. But "I believe there is a creator", is IMO, a disturbingly narrow perspective.
 
wesmorris said:
I dig that, but wonder why then you thing you can understand anything about a creator? Why not just say "sure, maybe there's a creator" rather than "just believing it"?
I guess I am saying "sure, maybe there's a creator". I don't know either way, but as I think about these discussons I just tend to "lean" towards rather than against the existence of a God (I honestly don't think I can explain why).

Hell I can even accept "I guess there's a creator", because that shows the humility of limited comprehension. But "I believe there is a creator", is IMO, a disturbingly narrow perspective.
And I certainly don't discount the relevance of evolution. It may be true, it may not be.

Maybe the reason I am a bit more for creationism is because I want it to be true. I want God to exist. Heaven just sounds more appealing to me than nothingness (and yes, I realize that is idealism at it's worst).
 
To cope, I see the romance of humanity is not to know what comes next. That's what keeps things exciting. Just because god may or may not be, doesn't mean that your vision of "the afterlife" should or should not necessarily change. Who knows?

Consider the concept of "conservation of energy". Energy is never destroyed, it only changes forms. No god required for the little tidbit. It is quite possible that nature's investment in the development of a person keeps with this line of thinking. Then of course, maybe not. We can only wonder.

Let us contemplate in wonderment of the infinite possibilities. :)
 
Woody said:
Here's the link.

Enjoy some good reading. Creationism is far from dead in the science community. This article is from a PHD microbiologist.

The Case for The Existence of God, Part 1
well he certainly proves he not a lawyer, is whole arguement is based on asumption, he states
legal authorities recognize the validity of a prima facie case, which is acknowledged to exist when adequate evidence is available to establish the presumption of a fact that, unless such fact can be refuted, legally stands proven (see Jackson, 1974, p. 13). It is the contention of the theist that there is a vast body of evidence that makes an impregnable prima facie case for the existence of God—a case that simply cannot be refuted. I would like to present here the prima facie case for the existence of God, and a portion of the evidence upon which that case is based.
however prima facia (at first sight) is exactly that, it's circumstancial evidence that could lead to a proof, it's what lawyer do to get a case to court, which they then have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt.
if this man had said that the case was res ipsa loquitur (the thing speaks for itself) the legal doctrine which establishes that the evidence on its own is sufficient to establish the fact in question.( but he did'nt)

so he fails in his atempt.

I would also argue about his validity as a microbiologist.

this a Circular Reasoning.
he supplys no evidence to help his case, as do most xians.
 
Nonsense. Since there is no definition of God
Er, God is defined as the creator of the Universe. Simple.
What if the universe indeed was created by a giant outeruniversal monkey rubbing its' arse?!
I think that would be the funniest thing in... uh... yeah. :)
 
It is said that one minute of laughter prolongs a life by 5 hours. If god indeed created the universe then there is no wonder he is immortal.
 
Farenheight: he supplys no evidence to help his case.

Woody: That is exactly one of his main points: Who can demonstrate the origin or non-origin of the universe in a science laboratory? This is the logical fallacy that atheists have made: they say they can't believe something unless it is proven by science, but science is only a subset of reality, though a very good subset. If you can only believe in what you can demonstrate in a lab then you can not believe in evolution for example.
 
Avatar said:
It is said that one minute of laughter prolongs a life by 5 hours.
Why do you think "lol" and those damned ":D" are so popular on the internet? Everyone is working towards immortality.

:D one step closer
 
Avatar said:
It is said that one minute of laughter prolongs a life by 5 hours. If god indeed created the universe then there is no wonder he is immortal.
Thanks for extending my life by 5 another minutes. :D
 
If you can only believe in what you can demonstrate in a lab then you can not believe in evolution for example.
Demostration and scientifical analysis are two different things. You don't present a supermassive black hole at the centre of our galaxy in a lab demonstration, though you can present evidence that proves that there is such thing beyond reasonable doubt.
 
This reminds me the time when we here at sciforums created an artificial religion with its' god, devil, demons, holy scriptures and what not and invited the religious folk prove our religion wrong. :D In fact it was as valid as christianity.
 
Woody said:
you can only believe in what you can demonstrate in a lab then you can not believe in evolution for example.

In principle evolution is merely a statement of the obvious: "that which doesn't succumb to death, is still alive". Duh. It's the fact that those things change and the scope of the potential changes that creationists are all up in arms about. Regardless though, there is no doubting the principle, or that things that manage to survive can change or result in a change. What little I know of genetics is freakin amazing to me. It's unbelieveable that fundamental physics insights such dependable complexity.

You don't need a lab to see evolution.
 
Hi all first post so be gentle :)

I have recently taken an interest in debating religious views... I currently concider myself a member of no church...but I want to try to determine the truth as I see it.

Logical arguements can hold a lot of wieght...but it seems to me that they will only help to re-assure people of their beliefs, as opposed to changing someone elses.
 
It depends on how a person got its' beliefs in the first place.
Example situation: A child grows up with religious parents. They tell him that Jesus created the universe. Then he gets into a christian school and is told that Jahve created the universe. Then he gets in University and is taught of logic and critical thinking. With enough education the person has become intelligent enough to make the best choice for himself whatever it is. Not all use their intelligence though and many simply aren't intelligent enough to make decisions for themselves and not to drink a ready made mixture of propaganda.
Example situation 2: A child grows up in let's say India, he is told that Shiva exists, etc, but since he feels no need for Shiva or thinks there is no need for Shiva to explain the universe or thinks that it isn't important whether Shiva exists or not, he lives his life without the problems some other might have, i.e., the problems on deciding whether some religion is true or not or a god exists or not because it doesn't fall into his reality (so to say). He doesn't need an intellect to decide on a religion or to change his views, because he has not that "religion problem".
 
OK let me summarize the aforementioned discourse on logic:

1) In the field of logic, there are principles—or as they are called more often, laws—that govern human thought processes and that are accepted as analytically true. One of these is the law of the excluded middle. When applied to objects, this law states that an object cannot both possess and not possess a certain trait or characteristic at the same time and in the same fashion.

2) The Universe exists and is real. Atheists and agnostics not only acknowledge its existence, but admit that it is a grand effect (e.g., see Jastrow, 1977, pp. 19-21). If an entity cannot account for its own being (i.e., it is not sufficient to have caused itself), then it is said to be “contingent” because it is dependent upon something outside of itself to explain its existence. The Universe is a contingent entity, since it is inadequate to cause, or explain, its own existence. Logic requires that if something exists contingently, it must have a cause.

3) It is here that the law of cause and effect (also known as the law of causality) is strongly tied to the cosmological argument. Simply put, the law of causality states that every material effect must have an adequate antecedent cause. Just as the law of the excluded middle is analytically true, so the law of cause and effect is analytically true as well.

4) Effects without adequate causes are unknown. Further, causes never occur subsequent to the effect. It is meaningless to speak of a cause following an effect, or an effect preceding a cause.

5) There are but three possible answers to the existence of the universe: (1) the Universe is eternal; it has always existed and will always exist; (2) the Universe is not eternal; rather, it created itself out of nothing; (3) the Universe is not eternal, and did not create itself out of nothing; rather, it was created by something (or Someone) anterior, and superior, to itself. These three options merit serious consideration.

6) Eternal Universe violates energy laws of science: The Steady State Theory was doomed to failure, in part, because it violated one of the most fundamental laws of science—the first law of thermodynamics (also referred to as the law of the conservation of matter and/or energy), which states that neither matter nor energy may be created or destroyed in nature. Matter can be converted into energy, and vice versa, but the total amount of all matter and energy in the Universe must remain unchanged forever.

Yet problems for those who advocated an eternal Universe continued to multiply because such a concept violated the second law of thermodynamics as well. Simply stated, the second law of thermodynamics dictates that as energy is employed to perform work, it is transformed from a usable to a nonusable form. The Universe is “running down” because energy is becoming less available for use.

7) Did the universe come from nothing? All things begin with speculation, science not excluded. But if no empirical evidence is eventually forthcoming, or can be forthcoming, all speculation is barren.... There is no evidence, so far, that the entire universe, observable and unobservable, emerged from a state of absolute Nothingness, and this would violate the law of excluded middles.

In connection with this, another important fact should be considered. If there ever had been a time when nothing existed, then there would be nothing now. It is a self-evident truth that nothing produces nothing.

8) Since it is apparent that the Universe it not eternal, and since likewise it is apparent that the Universe could not have created itself, the only remaining alternative is that the Universe was created by something.

9) Everything that exists can be classified as either matter (which includes energy), or mind. There is no third alternative. The theist’s argument, then, is this:

1. Everything that exists is either matter or mind.
2. Something exists now, so something eternal must exist.
3. Therefore, either matter or mind is eternal.

Conclusion: This is where theists differ from atheists: theists consider the mind to be a part of reality, and science to be a subset of logic.

Like I said before, man’s logic did not get us here, but atheists think it can explain how we got here. It sounds like a self-fulfilling assumption on their part. In any case it requires another assumption they can not accept, and that assumption is that God exists. Otherwise they'll just keep spinning new theories only to watch them go to the science graveyard.
 
invert_nexus said:
It's called hedging your bets. You want to go to 'heaven' so you 'lean' towards god.
Guess what? If the god of the bible exists, he doesn't want 'leaners'. So. If the position that you are leaning towards is correct then you'll enjoy hell instead.

Enjoy.
Of course I want to go to Heaven, I never said I was, I always say theoretically ("if I go to Heaven"). I just say I would rather there be a Heaven than there be nothingness.

And I'm sure we'll all enjoy Hell. The little things will seem so much more pleasant when we're there. Hate getting teeth pulled? Go to Hell. Teethpulling will seem orgasmic in comparison.

Now that's Heaven.
 
When applied to objects, this law states that an object cannot both possess and not possess a certain trait or characteristic at the same time and in the same fashion.
Wrong according to quantum mechanics. A cat can be dead and not dead at the same time.
Everything that exists can be classified as either matter (which includes energy), or mind.
What proves that mind is seperate from matter? i.e., that mind is not a form of energy?
Before that is known, we can not say that "everything that exists is either matter or mind" and we can not say the opposite too.

And.. ultimately both can be true.
 
Jinoda said:
Of course I want to go to Heaven, I never said I was, I always say theoretically ("if I go to Heaven"). I just say I would rather there be a Heaven than there be nothingness.

And I'm sure we'll all enjoy Hell. The little things will seem so much more pleasant when we're there. Hate getting teeth pulled? Go to Hell. Teethpulling will seem orgasmic in comparison.

Now that's Heaven.
That is according to christian doctrine.
 
wesmorris said: In principle evolution is merely a statement of the obvious:

Woody: Can anyone demonstrate evolution in the science lab? I don't completely deny some forms of evolution. The point being made here is -- hey if you have to proove everything in a science lab you really limit yourself. What is the strongest laboratory proof for evolution? I heard about the caterpillar that was mutated to a different species. Do you have anything better than that one?

By the way I don't want to turn this thread into a discourse on evolution. That subject has pretty well been beat to death in my opinion.
 
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