Scientific VS. Religious
- Thread starter KEITHTI3>l
- Start date
Jeez, your basically a bystander then? Take a chance! Believe or guess at SOMETHING! Most discoveries were based on at least a hunch and found by mistake! Even PROVEN scientific "LAWS" have been PROVEN wrong(inaccurate)...
Most of the greatest scientists of our modern/post-modern era, have admitted how pathetically little we "know". You cannot be certain of a lot of things ...particularly "death". As you say, no one has yet given a treatise.
I'm not overly concerned with the debate. Either there *is* something after or there *IS NOT* something(perhaps even at the individual level). Personally, I am not afraid of anything. I'm not sure that would stand up if I was on my death bed, I would hope so.
What does bug me, is the fire and brimstone speakers. That to me, is a power play on FEAR(even if they do not know it). This particular behaviour has historically STUNTED man's growth in the past and is probably the reason people like "Godless" are so vehement against any religion. I do not blame them...
As for me no. As a matter of fact they do not work. In UNI I lived in a share house with a "psychic" among other people. She truly believed in her "powers". In truth she was slightly psychotic - a good dose of Prozac et.al. may have been best for her. When she gave "readings" she could basically make anything mean anything.
I offered to run a few simple scientific tests that could instantaneously prove that she was not being given any information from anywhere outside her own imagination - she didn't take me up on it other than to say my negative energy would "block" her "access" to the neither world.
I found people like her prefer to live in their self-created fantasy world rather than be confronted with their own mundane.
Everyone loves Harry Potter - but after you finish reading the book, put it down man!
So in summary, KEITHTI3>l, tarot cards do not have any special supernatural power nor does their reader nor you. As to your question - I can answer it in one sentence. There is no such thing as Daemons and hence no such thing as Possession.
Michael
Tarot cards do not tell the future. Many people get confused and think that someone who uses Tarot cards believe they do. I read Tarot, but with practice, anybody can do it. You do not have to be "psychic". Tarot cards are simply a tool. They are not meant to channel the "divine" or spirits or whatever, though many people claim they do. Tarot simply helps one ask a question, lay out options, and interpret what they see. Of course, many people will scream on here that "logical" people do not need to do this. Still, if you have a problem that is bothering you and you write down your thoughts in a journal to better understand them, then Tarot is much like this. It helps you visualize a problem or a goal or the outcome that you want. Nothing more. Mostly I just read for friends for fun. A reading, in some ways, is like a mini counseling session. Anyone who thinks that Tarot has to be mystical or whatever, doesn't understand the logic behind it.
Yea I believe, I believe most people are full of shiet, when speaking about religion, and some don't know much at all about cosmology. Like you for instance!
If I don't believe the BB theory ever took place, then I must believe in the steady state theory of the universe. Huh! duh!
That is no big bang ever took place and evidence is showing that the universe is lots older than originally thoughout by big bangers!jessiej920,
Yes your post makes a lot of sense, some people like to paint, or smoke, or exercize (I personally like to cycle around the city and go for a coffee).
But wouldn't you agree t most people that visit a Tarot card reader believe there is some sort of mystical experience occurring at the time of the reading? Surely they do?
Michael
PS: My share mate was a a serious fruitcake, no Tarot cards need to see that!
Yes your post makes a lot of sense, some people like to paint, or smoke, or exercize (I personally like to cycle around the city and go for a coffee).
But wouldn't you agree t most people that visit a Tarot card reader believe there is some sort of mystical experience occurring at the time of the reading? Surely they do?
Michael
PS: My share mate was a a serious fruitcake, no Tarot cards need to see that!
Of course, I whole heartedly agree. Many people that read Tarot and make money from it advertise it as a mystical experience. Obviously that draws many people who want to believe it is. My point is that not ALL people believe this. It is a stereo-type that all people who read Tarot are, how do you say, fruitcakes. I am just pointing out that Tarot does have it's uses and is not all nonsense. Tarot can help people to visualize their problems and find logical solutions. It can help people realize that they have choices and that their problem isn't unsolvable.
Grantywanty
Registered Senior Member
That's a fair generalization and oversimplification. Note i said fair.
but there are many Religious people who are as savvy as the next layperson about general science.
And then there are also large numbers of people who think scientists are correct about many things, but are wrong to assume reality is
limited to what they can figure out
only approached though their methods.
Grantywanty
Registered Senior Member
As far as you know.
So many people project there own abilities and modes of attaining knowledge on others.
And if you think no one else can know either...
You arrived at that conclusion intuitively didn't you, certainly not scientifically. You simply assume that no one could no. It's like you say to yourself. Well if there is an afterlife we would not be able to have any contact with it now. It is interesting that you KNOW what the qualities of the boundary between this life and the next WOULD HAVE TO BE LIKE.
Why do you trust your intuition but assume that other's are wrong when they trust theirs.
There's no intuition in what Godless said - just empirical evidence - observation.
There is also a lack of evidence to support that there is anything after we die.
So, empirically, what do we know?
- We know that we are here - alive.
- We know that we die.
That's sort of it.
No matter how intuitive you might think you are - there is no other evidence on the table.
If there is... let us see it.
Tarot cards do not tell the future. Many people get confused and think that someone who uses Tarot cards believe they do. I read Tarot, but with practice, anybody can do it. You do not have to be "psychic". Tarot cards are simply a tool. They are not meant to channel the "divine" or spirits or whatever, though many people claim they do. Tarot simply helps one ask a question, lay out options, and interpret what they see. Of course, many people will scream on here that "logical" people do not need to do this. Still, if you have a problem that is bothering you and you write down your thoughts in a journal to better understand them, then Tarot is much like this. It helps you visualize a problem or a goal or the outcome that you want. Nothing more. Mostly I just read for friends for fun. A reading, in some ways, is like a mini counseling session. Anyone who thinks that Tarot has to be mystical or whatever, doesn't understand the logic behind it.
*************
M*W: Good post! Psychoanalysts use Rorschach blots to see what's going on in the mind. There's really no difference. They're both tools of the trade.
Grantywanty
Registered Senior Member
Godless said that when we die we die, that's all we know.
This is an assertion that no one can know what happens after death. What evidence is there of that.
There is an assumption that once could not know if there was an afterlife.
We could say Godless is saying: if there is an afterlife the membrane between life now and the afterlife is not permeable TO ANYONE. (except by dying)
First Godless we don't know if there is anything.
Then Godless says there is no way to know.
How does Godless know that the people who remember past lives or who have experiences contacting the dead, shamanic experiences are not even a couple of them, correct?
Godless concludes this by projecting Godless' experiences and abilities on everyone else.
Godless assumes the he knows what is possible.
It's speculation.
Get me.
If Godless said: I see no evidence for an afterlife or evidence that one can know something about an afterlife.
Fine.
But to assume he knows that other people's experiences are not correct is an assertion that needs back up.
I am not saying Godless should be convinced by others.
I am saying his statements about what other people are experiencing is groundless.
Some know.
So do you have verifiable empirical evidence otherwise? Do you know that there's an after life, and you can provide evidence which way? What we do know however when life leaves the body, it's gone! That is it, it does not come back, it does not longer exist. Existence is all that exists. To postulate another dimension of existence requires empirical evidence until then, all assertions of such existence is purely early mans imaginative reaction against death it's not based on observation. Is it?
Observed by the fact that no one has ever seen a dead person walk! To postulate that after life exists is merely fantasy no matter who claims it. Do you even know the origins of such ideas? Death to early men was unacceptable, thus men created gods and heaven, and the illusion that their "soul" would survive death! Do you have evidence of a soul? What is it that is going to survive death? If you can provide empirical evidence of a soul, we await your empirical presentation, until then, survival of said entity "soul" after death is inconclusive. Thus through known observations of what theist can't possibly provide evidence of, "soul and it's survival after death" we determine that all of it is purely fantasy.
Can you provide the evidence of those whom talk to dead people are not deceiving you? Can you believe that the living talks to the dead? What sort of fool would believe such diatribe drivel BS without any freaking empirical evidence in a Gawdamn scientific forum? Basically science is asking for theist to provide evidence of their claims. Your claims so far are:
We survive death, we have a soul, do you have any freaking evidence of either of those claims? If not then the hypothesis is purely delusional.
WTF? I'm not projecting shit, my statement was that I've experienced near death, I know that my brain lacked oxygen, then it hallucinated. This is scientific evidence of what happens to the brain once the heart stops pumping blood to the brain!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience
Merely everything that is experienced is interpreted by the observer the one who is near death, thus my conclusion is that all the life experience of the observer comes into play, if the individual is zealot religious then his experience will have that theme. Statically most people are religious so of course the stats are going to show NDE has some kind of mythical theme, but are we to postulate that these observations imply a survival of death? NO! There's no solid evidence that consciousness survives the death experience.
Ever seen a body in a comma? Where the hell is the subjects consciousness? the subject is not dead, yet unconscious, and can be unconscious for many years to just a couple of days! Where is the subjects soul? on a break!
As you do! YOU assume that you have a soul, that it will somehow unexplainable, and unverifiable by empirical evidence will survive death! Where is your evidence? Is it not an assumption that your making by believing or having faith in such or such religion that you will somehow defeat death and live after life? I may be guilty brother, but you stand on the shoulders of mysticism.
I have, scientific research has determined that when the brain looses oxygen it goes through hallucinations. It's there in black n white on the freaking print! therefore any experience is a subjective interpretation of the individual, and not a factual empirical verifiable observation that can lead to a conclusion of life after death.
I'm showing you that others experiences are inconclusive since it was do to a lack of oxygen to their brain, they have experienced hallucinations, scientific research has determined that if the organ/brain has a deficiency of blood being pumped into it, the oxygen delivered by the blood is cut off, the brain then goes into hallucination. Heck try it yourself. See what happens when you make yourself hyperventilate! More then likely you will experience a throbbing headache or pass out for a few seconds. Warning hyperventilating is a risky behavior:
I am speaking from personal experience. I wouldn't know about any of those other things that you mentioned. Why? Do you find what I say illogical?
Rorschach blots are used almost exclusively to allow the therapist or psychologist to gauge the patient's current state of mind for their discussion. It isn't so much a tool of analysis as it is one for just making sure the doctor/patient are on the same page during their discussions.
No, I think it's logical to get inspired from cards or paintings or even walking around....
Oh. I thought you were being sarcastic
. Well I think the "dancing flames" thing is pretty much just about meditation. I don't think people see the future in the flames, I think it is about inducing a trance-like state so you can meditate on a problem...but have not personally tried that one. As for magical dice and bones...ummm...yeah I have no idea.