Scientific Approach to the Jesus question

[SkinWalker]

Wrong. The supernatural has been documented over and over the last few years.
Some just refuse to see it.
I could show you hundreds of newspaper articles about miracles done in modern time, and even a "Readers Digest" story about one if you could accept it.

But you can't show a single one that has any verifiable evidence to support it. You have anecdotes, not evidence. Indeed, you've made many claims on this board about the supernatural and the paranormal, and not a single one has ever been backed up with any evidence.

Face it: you're delusional.

 

[TheVisitor]

But you can't show a single one that has any verifiable evidence to support it. You have anecdotes, not evidence. Indeed, you've made many claims on this board about the supernatural and the paranormal, and not a single one has ever been backed up with any evidence.

Face it: you're delusional.

Tag-team.....how quaint.
Look it up.....you haven't yet have you?
This article is not a "anecdote", it happened and was reported by the attending physician.
Reader's Digest 1952..."The Miracle of Donny Morton"
Its only one of thousands.....but this one was documented and published right after it happened in Reader's Digest.
This is not a fictional story, but a documented account with the physician's testimony.

 

[spiritual_spy]

Than provide a link? I googled "Miracle of Donny Morton" and got nothing.

 

[SkinWalker]

Reader's Digest. Now there's a piece of peer-reviewed literature. Yes, we all believe now [/sarcasm]

Its still an anecdote and it still isn't supported by verifiable and testable evidence. Its still the delusions of believers.

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor,

Show some links to real unambiguous evidence that the supernatural exists, and that has been peer reviewed by respected and recognized scientific investigators.

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor,

Wrong. The supernatural has been documented over and over the last few years.

Nonsence. You mean claims of the supernatural. Nothing has yet been shown as real.

 

[TheVisitor]

"peer reviewed by respected and recognized scientific investigators."

Theres the "catch" my friend.
They are usually hard core atheists.
But many are not.
That still doesn't mean you will listen.
I heard this all before...."If there is really a God to whom all things are possible, can He make a rock to big for even Him to lift? ect, ect, ect......
Square circle, black white....come on, get real.
The supernatural is all around us.
The Christians armor is all supernatural.

For the whole Christian armor is faith: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, goodness, meekness, gentleness, patience, all the unseen.
Can you touch Love?.....but you believe it is real.
What you know in your heart is more powerful than what you know in your mind.
There's where the real power lies....in the heart.

Christians do not look at what we see; we look at what we believe.
We believe it before there's any natural evidence.
Thats what brings into existence the supernatural creation of all things.
True faith is not blind, it is a revelation.
It has substance and is what brings the unseen into reality by the supernatural.

 

[spiritual_spy]

Beleiving something dosent make it real visitor. You say the christians armor is supernatural. You know what i say? I say the christians armor is ignorance. You say the supernatural is all around us. But you know what i see? A compex mix of natural processes. True Faith is Blind. Becuase True Faith comes without evidence.

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor,

Theres the "catch" my friend.
They are usually hard core atheists.

Curious that isn’t it, that scientists being among the best educated, intelligent, innovative, creative, and clear minded – tend to be atheistic. Perhaps there’s a clue for you there.

The supernatural is all around us.

Then you should have absolutely no problem showing it to me. I’ll be patient while you figure out something appropriate.

The Christians armor is all supernatural.

I strongly recommend you never test it in a real battle.

For the whole Christian armor is faith: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, goodness, meekness, gentleness, patience, all the unseen.

Same as humanism – without the irrationality of faith and a need to believe fairy stories about a supernatural.

Christians do not look at what we see; we look at what we believe.

And there’s the catch - no one can see what you believe, because the imagination can’t be seen, and neither is it real.

We believe it before there's any natural evidence.

Not accurate. You believe in spite of the absence of evidence, this is simply irrational.

Thats what brings into existence the supernatural creation of all things.

LOL. Believing something doesn’t make it real, oh if only that were true.

True faith is not blind, it is a revelation.

Nope, just unhealthy delusion, plain and simple.

 

[Raphael]

But you can't show a single one that has any verifiable evidence to support it. You have anecdotes, not evidence. Indeed, you've made many claims on this board about the supernatural and the paranormal, and not a single one has ever been backed up with any evidence.

Face it: you're delusional.

Anecdotes are evidence. There is even a term for it-- anecdotal evidence. It is just a different form of evidence.

Anecdotal evidence should not be discounted simply because of the lack of other forms of evidence. But rather because of existance of other evidence which contradicts it.

In 1772, had Antoine Lavoisier realized that "no evidence" did not contradict anecdotal evidence, then he would never had said, "Stones cannot fall from the sky, because there are no stones in the sky!"

 

[MarcAC]

Jesus is a sadist.

...

And as for jesus the sadist here you go. If jesus is indeed God Than that means he is responsible for 1.The flood that killed all of humanity except one family. 2.He sentenced entire cities to death. And here is the good one. You get to spend an entire eternity in a fiery hell if you dont kiss his ass. Plus if god is all-powerful and all-good there should be no evil in the world but as you can tell that is not so. So its either A.He isnt all powerful or 2. he is all powerful but not all good and enjoys watching his creations suffer.

You deserve a tick for that.

By the fact that you appeared to enjoy the original statement so much by the explicit show of teeth...

One would have to conclude you're a masochist.

 

[Raphael]

Yes. Anything that can be uttered is evidence. It's the relative quality of the evidence that counts, isn't it? It's pretty good evidence to see a fireball come from the sky, impact several miles away, go to the site, and find a steaming, sizziling rock sitting in a crater. Did we not eventually realize that this did indeed happen from time to time? Can we not now analyze said rocks and even tell which type of metallic/rocky body they originated from? I think the point here is that if all you have is anecdotal evidence, especially regarding a phenomenon as big as the creator of the cosmos (or his "son") then you need much more for any intelligent person to even consider it.

Quality of evidence is subjective. Anecdotal evidence is evidence. What value one places on any piece of evidence is up to an individual examining the evidence regardless of the phenomenon in question.

The point is, anecdotal evidence is too often only used in an "assume A, look at anecdotal evidence, therefore A." manner. Lavoisier had the same anecdotal evidence, but apparently he did not see it as pretty good evidence. It is my opinion that you only claim that it is pretty good evidence because you have a pre-existing bias for the existance of rocks in the sky.

 

[MarcAC]

That’s predestination, i.e. people are puppets. Definitely not attractive and a good reason not to follow such a god.

Naaaaughh. That's destiny. Built for a purpose and have free will to choose their path towards that goal. A computer has many functions.

 

[Cris]

MaracAC,

Naaaaughh. That's destiny. Built for a purpose and have free will to choose their path towards that goal.

Destiny is predetermination, you agree on that, right?

As for freewill; bunkum! Why design something for a purpose and then let it do something else, and don't tell it its purpose anyway? True freewill means being able to choose purpose as well.

 

[TW Scott]

Alright here is the upshot, we were not arguing if the Jesus who was crucified on April 25th in Jerusalem was the son of god or not. We were arguing if that person existed at all. Since he did all you naysayers have done is proved your ignorance and lack of comprehension.

 

[TheVisitor]

The believer never looks to the natural side. He looks to what God said, and that settles it.
No matter what it looks like, he believes it anyhow.

We look at the unseen, by the human eye. Faith is not what you see;
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Now, if you get that way down in your heart, then you're on your road.

When God makes a promise, He's duty bound to take care of that promise.
Test Him on that sometime. You are allowed to do that.
Abraham believed that, and he called those things which were not, as though they were.
This is what gives the believer supernatural power to overcome obstacles that would be impossible for the natural man.

You say "don't try that in a real battle...
I do it every day.
That is the real battle.
"We wrestle not with flesh and blood, but principalities and powers, and spiritual wickedness in high places."
Until you are a "son over your own house".....your own vessel, you can do nothing in the real world.
Evil spirits control the multitudes and they will attempt to control you every day in every thing you do.
Thats the power of the unseen.
Thats were the true battle really lies.
Only faith in the Word of God can give that victory.
If you haven't seen this yet, you have no idea what you are up against.
You are just a vessel for the enemy to use.
Jesus said "who's not for me, is against me"
Thats where He was coming from.

 

[Iasion]

Greetings,

Alright we have every reason to conclude that Jeshua (Jesus) was real based on the bible, Judaic records, the Koran, and other supporting factors.

We have no reason to conclude Jesus was real.
The Bible was written by people who never met any Jesus, written long after his alleged life, crafted from the OT and pagan literature.

There are no contemporary Judaic records.
The Koran is many CENTURIES afterwards - it means nothing.
There are no supporting factors.

There is NO contemporary evidence for Jesus - just later legends by people preaching a new religion about Jesus.

First while the Bible may (or may not) stretched events it has universally been truthful about the people existing. Joseph, Moses, Elijah, Saul, David, Solomon, Ruth and countless others. Quite a few verifiable form the outside.

The Bible has been shown wrong about many things - the Flood, the Exodus, the Conquest of Canaan - all myths.

Joseph is a myth.
Moses is a myth.
Elijah is a myth.
Solomon is probably a myth.
David is probably a myth.
The Bible is LEGENDS and MYTHS in it's early layers.

Second histories of other cultures have supported the stories of several events. Including the Red Sea parting, the plagues of Egypt, the foreign relations during Soloman's reign and the crucifixtion.

Rubbish.
The REED Sea was never parted (it's not the "Red Sea".)
The plagues never happened.
Solomon is UNKNOWN to history.
The crucifixion is UNKNOWN to history.

Now this is more circumstantial but it all we have, in fact it is all we have on several historical figures. We have even less than this on millions of people that had to exist.

The existance of OTHER people has no baring on Jesus.
Jesus existance stands and falls on EVIDENCE for Jesus.
There is NO contemporary evidence for Jesus, even where we would expect it (e.g. Philo, Seneca, Justus.)
There IS evidence that the Jesus story was crafted from the OT, with elements of pagan literature as well - e.g. the empty tomb theme, which is known in ancient novels of the time, but oddly totally MISSING from the early Christian writers.

So in this case we have every reason to conclude Jesus did exist. that is until some one proves there was a conspiracy to create a fictional character.

There is no reason to conclude Jesus existed,
and many reasons to conclude he was a myth.

No-one mentioned "conspiracy to create a fiction" - apologists love to bash this strawman.

Was there a conspiracy to create a fictional Odysseus?
Many ancient people thought he existed.
And Osiris, and Beowulf - etc.

Many ancient stories about many ancient heroes exist - many people thought they were real - so what?

What makes you think YOUR ancient religious myth is true, but others are false?

The fact that it's YOURs - and you have FAITH in it.

But sadly,
no-one can come up with any "scientific evidence" for Jesus.

All we get is "UN-scientific evidence" - preaching and hand-waving.


Iasion

 

[Wilmet]

creation is not the problem, the fact a that a perfect being, would create or need to do anything is the problem, to be perfect means to be utter and absolutely without faults, errors or flaws, in need of absolutely nothing, complete and whole, exact, totally flawless. to lack anything, means to be not perfect, creativity is'nt the issue. it is'nt, a perfect being however is considered flawed, if it needs anything, therefore it can not be perfect.
nothing, but to need anybody or anything else, means you ar'nt perfect. every dictionary in the world and every interpretation of perfect, states the same thing,

compact english dictionary

perfect

1 having all the required elements, qualities, or characteristics. 2 free from any flaw; faultless. 3 complete; absolute:


cambridge online

perfect (WITHOUT FAULT)

1 complete and correct in every way, of the best possible type or without fault:

http://www.onelook.com/?w=perfect&ls=a


again it does'nt, it is to do solely with a god/anything being perfect, to need anything else means it's not perfect, therefore flawed, sorry if it appears patronising and repetitive, but you dont seem to be getting it.

Oh, I think I get what you're saying pav... but your interpretation does not sit well with me.

You are saying to lack anything (creativity in this case) would be to be imperfect... flawed. Agreed. To have creativity would fit within the definition of perfect. Agreed. To express that creativity would demonstrate imperfection because, according to you, the expression of creativity equates to need... I disagree.

 

[Wilmet]

...

WHEN do YOU think Jesus was born?

...

Iasion

Unlike you, Iasion, I haven't come to a conclusion as to whether or not Jesus was born... never mind "WHEN".

When one takes a position that there was no historical Jesus and then write things like... "after Jesus"... it tends to cause others to think that the writer is not so entrenched in their position after all... which is probably a good thing in this case.

By the way, there are scores of websites out there which are much more objective than the one you cited to support your position on TF which approaches the question from the preconceived position that there was no historical Jesus.

 

[MarcAC]

Destiny is predetermination, you agree on that, right?

Sure, where God and man both have a hand in its determination?

If God sees the future, it means he sees the consequences of our choices in the world he designed, right?

As for freewill; bunkum! Why design something for a purpose and then let it do something else, and don't tell it its purpose anyway? True freewill means being able to choose purpose as well.

Bonk! Because it has free will silly.

If you believe in God as seen by authors of the Bible... you know your purpose.